Post Sargon vs Jason debate thread

Thoughts on how the debate went? Thoughts on the arguments being made? What could have went better and how?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=NMHAl74JthI
youtube.com/watch?v=6Tmi7JN3LkA
youtube.com/watch?v=fTu3O2nJZSM
medium.com/insurge-intelligence/pentagon-study-declares-american-empire-is-collapsing-746754cdaebf
clarionproject.org/us-fatalities-war-on-terror/
ghanatrade.org/agricultural-import-ghana/
youtube.com/watch?v=3ce69qdGF8I
pastebin.com/X4piPJL8
counterpunch.org/2016/05/18/china-closes-the-innovation-gap-surges-to-worlds-second-in-high-quality-science/
aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html
hollaforums.com/thread/2427442/activism/post-sargon-vs-jason-debate-thread.html
youtube.com/watch?v=J7E4BkZEcAg
jacobinmag.com/2016/12/hezbollah-lebanon-iran-islamic-revolution-labor/

fuck, you ninja'ed me

...

Jason won overall. Some things could have been phrased better, the issue about Third World exploitation could have been handled A LOT better, and Jason really needs to buff up his data and sources on that. In general though, Jason did a good job. No complaints.

I bet your OP would have been better too. Sorry fam. Have some /cow/ oc.


Is this autisticface serious? Jason didn't do amazing, but he made Sargon look like an idiot.

Once again, Roo's only saving grace is that he's up against complete morons. I'd say they were about even. Sargon contradicted himself numerous times but Roo knew almost no concrete examples to back up his points except for the price of bread in Ghana. Plus, Sargon was very clam throughout the debate whereas Roo almost exploded on numerous occasions.

back to twitter, illiterate

Anyone would if they were talking to a man who is both that arrogant and idiotic at the same time.

Idk they just seem to be going in circles, they're both acknowledging each other as correct but not really, Sargon believes neoliberalism will improve the world without understanding just how critical imperialism is to neoliberalism…therefore neoliberalism will never actually being about a global utopia it will only perpetuate imperialism indefinitely
gosh, it's "id-pol" a contraction of identify and politics
I'm sorry to say but neither of them are very intelligent at all, Jason seems a smidgeon more put together intellectually

As an outsider and a Holla Forumsack, I think he held himself pretty well. I've seen the memes of him struggling to hold up an airsoft gun, shilling his "Fallout Economics and Marxism" hardcovers, and generally being a total douche, but in this debate he came across pretty well. If I didn't know anything about him, I'd probably go and check out his channel.

Every time Sargon was pinned, he said "let's agree to disagree", even if it was basic principles. Jason made Sargon look like he didn't know shit about economics, he didn't know shit about the world outside Swindon, and he ultimately didn't know shit outside of his patreon-supported bubble life. There were a few moments where Jason was stunned into silence, not realizing that he had to explain very entry-level ideals before he could continue with his arguments because Carl simply didn't understand.
Jason didn't attack enough. He let Carl dictate the conversation. That's where he failed. I get the sense that Jason had a better understanding of the material, but Carl kept changing the stadium like a Pokemon stage on Smash Bros.

JUST

...

How many debates has muke completely fucked up, though? Listening to him debate right wingers is always at least as much of a cringe fest as Roo vs. Sargon.

He had a stream about communism with Peter Coffin.

Is this guy even serious at this point

I just don't get this idea. Corporations are just big groups of capitalists banding together to mobilize capital and make money. Only economic illiterates say "its corporatism, not communism!"

w-well that's collectivism and goes against the principles of liberalism

Jason fucked up so bad.

Not really Muke

Seriously, is there a single book Sargon has read? He comes over as a complete illiterate who just bullshits his way through the internet, and seems to think with "common sense" you can debunk everything smarter people have come up with.

I'd honestly even doubt he has read the liberal classics like Mill or Smith.

He did fine. He could have done better, but he made Carl look like a brainlet.

Why is it that after every single debate Holla Forums always goes
It's almost as even no matter who you send from Holla Forums they look like a retard in front of everyone else.

No, he really fucking didn't. In fact, I expected worse, I was genuinely surprised by this.

He couldn't even counter the fucking cell phone in the ghetto argument or sargons ridiculous "capitalism will just become communism on its own xD" argument.

They weren't worth countering because they are transparently retarded.

So here's pretty much what happened
In conclusion, Jason came off as a well read and knowledgeable yet somewhat spergy third worldist, Don Sargon came off as a total retard that caught himself by the tail.

Jason is not from Holla Forums and Muke has denounced Holla Forums as being "NazBol". Jason's channel existed before there was even Holla Forums.

If one of the more knowledgeable Holla Forumsacks would debate Sargon, like that Hoxha effortposter, or even Jack Angstreich who annihilated Academic Agent, they would grind Sargon to dust.

Besides that, Jason won this debate overall.

Holla Forums doesn't "send" anyone. Besides we hated Muke long before he lost debates and we praised the rest like Finnbol and the latest Joe guy on bloodsports and /bybs/

How would you respond to this, Muke?

most of the veiwers are transparently retarded enough to not notice that

that's not true, we sent one of our boys to talk to Destiny and he was posting in the thread

This was one of my favorite bits.
Good summary.


I saw an user in the debate thread saying Muke wasn't liked because he was an SJW.
Is there anything beyond this? Like his particular snowflake brand of communism is stupid? Or is it purely because he's an unlikable faggot?


Which stream was that?

Eh, true enough, Jack was pretty solid. Hoxha poster is probably a sperg irl tho


Yeah sure thing. That's why everyone was praising Muke in the Sargon v Muke debate thread until they later realized he embarrassed everyone yet again and then turned on him. And even then, it doesn't matter if you "hate" him or not, to the outside he's a spokesperson of Holla Forums, even if he shouldn't.

youtube.com/watch?v=NMHAl74JthI

Point out the passage of Marx about the comparison of exchange values instead of talking about use values, point out that large growths in productive forces capable of producing great amounts of use values happened under fuedalism, stalinism and slavery too but that Sargon wouldn't think that makes them at all good systems

and for the second argument, point out that capitalists wouldn't just give their property to everyone and would at most give a small portion of their profits away to consumers in order to substain the capitalist economy and it would require property seizure to have communism even with full automation.

if sargon had known what inflation was, he could have won

That still doesn't make him our spokesman, or makes what he does reflect on us in any way.

I think the idea is that under "corporatism" dah gubermand is in bed with large corporations and helps them through corruption/subsidies/bailouts while under MUH PERFECT INFALLIBLE CAPITALISM THAT HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED the gubbermand will be impotent to intervene in the free market so smaller business will thrive and large corporations will not form

it's fucking retarded on every level but it's what they believed

Yeah this was the only time i remember Holla Forums 'sent' someone and that was only because destiny-fags came to shill him asking for someone and when a guy volunteered and went on he counldn't get their mic to work so a trot from the thread decided to step in because it was getting embarrassing.

Zizek would be /ourguy/. Anyways, Jason did ok

Yes, but at least I don't have a sperg voice and that probably makes a difference in these spergfests

also nigger what the fuck why are you equating muke's opinion with Holla Forums's? There was pretty much consensus in that thread that Jason won.

It was striking how uneducated he seemed. He was perplexed at why things would cost more in other countries, or why money isn't a static thing that always has the same value. I don't want to keep going "as an x" but it helps to show the outsider's point of view, and as a non-commie, Jason seemed like he comprehended the subject matter, whereas Sargon seemed befuddled.

He has an unearned sense of superiority and is incredibly smug for a guy who is absolutely not at all intelligent, charismatic, witty or well-read on the topics he talks about. He's also one of the people who always uses the "it wasn't real socialism actually" line to get out of questions about past socialist movements, which is a terrible argument and makes us look totally detached from reality.

it's quite funny that sargon claimed to have read capital

I feel like most people that claim to have read Capital haven't read Capital.

How is this relevant to Sargon's point? Commodities always have use values, people do actually like smartphones, not because they are deemed expensive to have. This comes just down to the law of value itself, and how allocation of commodities is regulated by profitability, which is sort of what Jason did, he just didn't use the technical terms that Marx uses in chapter one.

He kinda did that though, didn't he? He pointed out that the USSR lifted people out of poverty, to which Sargon responded with the muh gorillions, which made Sargon look like a hypocrit, because he used the exact same utilitarian logic to defend capitalist growth.

What debate were you watching? Jason said the exact same thing 1:1

Shit like this makes me interested in you guys. Maybe you should throw one of your faggots onto the kumite or backyard bloodsports so we can get some understanding of where you're coming from, because the larger online community considers you as a bunch of trannies who want free shit.

it's not much of a debate if your side just wants to cry about ethnostates

What do you mean?

i mean right wing youtubers do not have any political or economic theory to put forward besides muh ethnostates, and when questioned about the mechanics of these ethnostates they dodge and retreat to insults

unlike roo, who addressed the mechanics of socialism and detailed the pitfalls of the current global economic structure

He sort of made this point but he mostly just talked about purchasing power and moved on. I was talking about the passage where Marx compares exchange values to houses and says that no matter how much you grow all the house some will always seem tiny when compared the others.


Sargon didn't do muh gorillions if I remember correctly he just said that the USSR was just taking technology from capitalism and then they moved on to Mc Donalds. And Jason bringing up the USSR was part of a seperate point about how socialism makes people poor. As for the "just taking tech from capitalism!!!!" point Jason should have asked "if its so easy why hasn't africa and every country in the world done it"


Just rewatched that bit. Your right.

Any platform where 3 guys scream at one guy for three hours isn’t worth the time tbh

They call you a faggot because the larger argument is the morality behind these things. The morality is denied. I ultimately want humans to explore space. You compile the entire argument down to 'LOL THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN FUCKING SCIFI IDEALISTS'. Men should aim for the horizon, not the pebbles on the ground.

Round 2 on the horizon?


It's entertaining, and that's where the non-political congregate. You can sit in your ivory tower sniffing yourself for as long as you want, but if you want to reach the people, you have to be charismatic and funny.

guess which economic system got humans in space first
this is projection

feel free to pursue your fantasies with like-minded cunts but don't tie the rest of the fucking species into it

Yeah, the lumpen.
They’re kind of useless

What exactly? That we don't all make the (terrible) argument that "real socialism has never been tried" whenever actually existing socialist states and movements are criticized?

Gentoo, motherfucker I know you're reading this, don't you dare, don't you put him through this.

Not sure if that would have been the best choice, I could imagine Sargon responding to that in multiple ways, the most stupid one being "hurr durr you're jealous".

Right, he didn't made the gorillion argument, but a similar one about evil commies stealing capitalist tech. I agree with you he should have really intersected there and hammered home how retarded that is, FinnBol certainly would have done it in his usual stoicism, but when I remember correctly Sargon also interrupted Jason at this point. Certainly here he could have shined a bit more, as Jason is weak in his theory but somewhat decent when it comes to history and geopolitics.

You dodged my point.
I want to have the argument on "is it ok for whites to demand an ethnostate". You don't throw darts blindly just because " why bother? You have a target.


"Should" is important. Without it we end up with Nintendo Cardboard Switch and fat bitches breaking their wii fits.


Yeah, the non-sanitized version of commies. I want to see more of you guys and hear your arguments.

Even 4/pol/ thinks Sargon lost.

an "ethnostate" is not a political or economic system, explain what you mean

Thats easier to debunk that "capitalism is litterally making everyone healthy and happy!"


Yeah, now that I reflect on it Jason did fairly decently, its just kind of irritating watching a debate and seeing openings for so many better arguments that aren't made.

A country with a rule that it must be majority white.

You currently have an ethnostate then. Multiple ethnostaes. How is it working out for you?

So I guess commies who defend actually existing socialism and are critical of liberal idpol? Check out based Parenti:

youtube.com/watch?v=6Tmi7JN3LkA

Well, I'm sure everybody feels like that when watching any debate really, including yours.

What country has that law?


Thanks fam. I still want to see some of you guys hop onto the streams. cuck/pol/ has a backyard bloodsports where they'll take anyone. Your main challenger will be some guy called Joachim. Go fuck him up. I'll be listening.

Can definitely recommend Parenti, he's an absolute dude. Read .pdf related, it's relatively short.

Dude, I've seen his debate with that Joe guy, and why the latter was a bit lukewarm, Joachim came over like a huge punchable retard

Read “society of the spectacle”.
This type of thing is only meant to be reification of political discourse and integrated spectacle that serves the existing order of things.

But he came across as the winner, too. You fucks should get in there.

You say that, but people like Sargon, as stupid as I feel saying this, change the political opinions of the youth.

Even Sam Hyde, the trannyfucking spastic, has turned a lot of people from cuckservative to hard fascists. Don't ignore the power of comedy. If you're talking about lemmings, they aren't here. They aren't watching these streams. The people interested in this shit are canvasses ready for some paint.

NO!! Please don't, it would be an absolute snoozefest. Get FinnBol to do it or fucking Jack Angstreich

Also, Ismail has a YouTube channel, but he probably wouldn't want to do it.

None of those people are real threat to capitalism, and serve the existing order though. Again, read society of the spectacle. There’s a reason detournement failed

I'll read it, but do you deny the effect shitposting has on culture?

*theres a reason detournment fails within integrated spectacle. It has to be done from outside and detour the idea of internet bloodsports itself

Also
Listen, you fucks have to stop this "read x" thing. If you have already read it, and it's relevant to the conversation, you could use your knowledge to blow me the fuck out. It comes across as you having read a book that agrees with you, not entirely understanding it, and using it as a bludgeon in online debates. It's like when Sargon said "have you even read Locke?"
Quit that shit and be more smarterer.

yes

We had one Hoxhaist here named Joe who told us about a bloodsport he was on and then later was on a kumite. In both cases Joachim (the ethno-nationalist) kept flipping his position between liberalist arguments and natonalist one, even going as far as to use sources he himself wouldn't accept in regard to his own ideology, and then in the case of the kumite ganged up on Joe in a 3-1 shoutdown match while Joe eas trying to state sources. If we are going to ever debate, it has to be equal numbers.

Shitposting is only good as far as it already agrees with existing trends in realpolitik. Otherwise you do it in a vacuum. It’s idealistic to think otherwise.

Thanks, I'll watch it now.

Shitposting does turn people. It's the unfiltered opinions of random people who are interested in this kind of thing. I'm here realizing a lot of what you guys say strikes true, and it's not because of some oxford style debate. It's because I like stupid shit on the internet.

This picture sums up these "debates" that people on Youtube attempt.

I'm not Muke.

You're competing with every other asshole these days. Do you not think every political segment of the digitally-interconnected population doesn't think the same thoughts you do now?

It's easy to sell an argument and get upvotes and good comments. It's harder to get these people to stick to anything because - guess what - the next asshole with a more 'compelling' argument will swap the flies' diet to the next blend of carefully crafted bullshit just the same. You're talking about people so stupid they make up their minds about an issue on the spot because someone not even face-to-face talked them into it. People who willingly steal arguments from Youtube videos instead of building their own. Every loudmouthed moron on this Earth stands a good chance to convert them by next Tuesday.

All nu-nazis are are hippies repackaged to be harder and edgier. Not a single one doesn't bitch endlessly to me about le flouride organic GEEEEMMOOOOOO. They're the exact same assholes who used to bush 9/111 omg!!!! amerikka just with a different mask so it's more shocking to the soccer moms now. They don't do it because they care. They do it because they don't care. They've been conditioned to not care. All narratives are competing in a sea of other narratives blasted into our collective eyesockets four to eight hours a day. The sheer noise drowns out the sophisticated and leaves smart people questioning and stupid people shouting because they just can't handle the sensory overload.

In such environments, everyone's in such a perpetual detuned state from anything their real world expressed viewpoints could ever be that it becomes hard for the average citizen to take anything seriously at all. Extremism becomes very appealing to those aforementioned sensory overloaded. It's simple. One man at the top. One man at the top. Don't have to have a rhyme or reason, just put a nigga at the fucking top. It's what humans default to in times of stress, and it's what demagogues manipulate to push their own goals.

You can say this is what dick or baudrillard warned us about, but I think people just need to learn to go back the fuck outside. This is complicated by other societal factors I won't get into though. The youth culture in America is tragic, and there is no inclination by anyone's game to fix it even though it feeds into all of the above problems. Real world problems, who has time for that anymore? Gotta convert people through my vlog and pretend the painting really a fucking pipe.

Sit on that statement for a while.

Not sure what you mean. Is this that horseshoe theory I've heard Vee talking about?

Wow, nobody has that opinion. Do you also believe people should be allowed to say what they want to say? Do you also believe in puppies and rainbows?

You can keep your head in the sand as long as you want, but shit's gonna keep happening around you.

Is Sargon Left-Accelerationist gang now?

he is paul mason gang

Do you really think that? Shitposting itself filters analysis of realpolitik into the most entertaining form. Substance often has to be sacrificed to make that happen, in any medium. It almost functions as a propaganda mechanism for trends that already existed. What you’re asking for is leftist propaganda, not unfiltered opinions. I’m not opposed to the idea, but it doesn’t work within integrated spectacle, since the objective is to entertain, not to inform or analyse. In that sense, as entertaining a leftist might be, the audience would only be attracted to the aesthetics of his presentation, and could easily discount him once those were overcome. Even if the entertainer manages to plant seeds of cognitive dissonance, this momentarily lapse could be discounted as an instance where he was the better entertainer. Whose message is the correct one will always be obscured by the entertainment factor. Nvm the fact that the entertainer may not even have revolutionary consciousness.
It makes me wonder how long that will last, or if all it will take is one relatively skinny leftist to stutter too much when explaining his ideas.

Sargon "I will make Nick Land look sane" of Akkad.

You're trying to argue away something that is an evident fact. It doesn't matter how many two-dollar words you pull out of your scrabble bag. You also slaughtered your own point right here

The main problem with humor (and subversion in general) is that no victory is final for either the status quo or those against it. What, do people actually believe it's possible to "win" a "culture war" forever? Suppose the hard right gets their society, then rather than far-rightists being the subversion people are drawn to, it'll be the far-leftists. How does someone *not* just become an apathetic nihilist at that point?

"Well, this shit's gonna flip in a generation or to anyway, whatever."

Lol that homo Trotskyite redditor is so salty.
I hope he never comes back.

Life isn't "you win it's over". It's a constant struggle. You shouldn't give up just because there's someone on the other end of the tug-o-war.

Point was you’re probably attracted to the aesthetics rather than any ideas right now. That’s not a bad thing, but its also fickle. That’s pretty in line with my point. Shouting matches can peak curiosity, but it’s curiosity that’s peaked based on aesthetics and entertainment value. That means it can also be discounted as just that and one can dissociate from any underlying message.

Holly kek
What is this autistic obsession with Sparta?

Ancient civilizations are Carl’s specialty. It’s all he really has.

he's also shit at that

Sargon doesn't know that the Spartans discouraged trade because they were a slave-owning society that produced pretty much everything they needed indigenously and the Roo didn't really know enough about history to point that out. To Sargon the fact that they were against trade proves that it was a state that was not driven by economics.

Didn't watch it not a leftist and I predict Unruhe got BTFO hard and was made to look unreasonable and retarded to normal people and bystanders but echo chamber ideologues will say that he won because they are completely detached from all reality

I missed the debate because of work. Is it worth watching?

When Sargon hit Roo with the whole “global poverty is decreasing because of capitalism” meme I was really disappointed in Roo’s response. He made some good points like how the poverty line is often too low, but there’s all kinds of other arguments he could have made. First off, it’s easy to prove that it’s too low in countries where the IPL is lower than the national poverty line. For example in India there are way more people living under the national poverty line than the international one, meaning far more people struggle to meet basic needs than just using he IPL suggests. So if you use a proper IPL closer to say between $5 and $10, you get much larger numbers of people, and far slower improvement. Second, he could have made the point that this reduction in poverty and general improvement in quality of life doesn’t correlate with the introduction of capitalism. Capitalism became the dominant system in some places as early as the 17th century in places like the Hanseatic League, Dutch Reublic, Italian City States, etc. It’s only with the rise of industrialization that we see these trends arise. So this improvement is happening in spite of capitalism, and because of industrialization and technological advancement. As the USSR proves, you don’t need capitalism to industrialize. However what is the product of capitalism is the distribution of wealth, and unlike in the past, 100% of poverty today is the result of inequitable distribution, not scarcity. So capitalism can’t reliably said to be the force curing poverty, but it can definitely be said to be the thing causing it by its flawed distribution mechanisms. In other words capitalism is an impediment to a process that should be happening much faster and smoother.

are you retarded? he was calm the whole time.

That's a real book that someone published, btw. Sad but true.

no unruhe rocked him
youtube.com/watch?v=fTu3O2nJZSM

TLDR
Sargon doesnt know economics.
"MUH SPARTA"
Jason slightly flustered due to Sargon being unable to grasp simple concepts but overall won the debate.
Sargon denies global warming.
Jason has a aneurysm.

No, they do. You just don't give your points in a particularly intelligent manner. There's a reason 12 year olds on twitter are dunking on communism. I'm trying to help you, but if you want to argue that what you're doing is working, I'm fine with that.

It was actually the opposite, Carlgon didn't even know what inflation was and was made to look like a complete economic illiterate.

Good God imagine being so bad you lose to the meme himself fucking roo

I thought the Roo was calm but you could tell he was audibly frustrated which is completely understandable.

I thought it went so well I'm now a follower of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Unruhe Thought.

I didn't know this until recently, but Jason has written a bunch of books.

Now I don't know if any of them are any good or not but still, I'm impressed.

Sargon obviously didn't know what inflation was, Roo sensed this, but didn't have a good enough command of the topic to actually drive the point home.

Not my argument.
Please reread it again

I'm not even arguing that something shouldn't be done. It's what is effective and what isn't. I'd much rather detourne the idea of your internet bloodsports toward something in which leftist could actually push their ideas. As it stands, all those platforms are avenues for entertainment, not constructive discourse.

No offense, but I'm not surprised 12 year olds are attracted to the aesthetics of what amounts to the "Maury Povich" show of discourse, no.

I am inclined to agree, it doesn't matter if they are good or bad, just the idea that he put massive amounts of time into something which will yield no profits at all is admirable.

Maybe we just have different opinions. I think things like internet bloodsports can change minds, despite most people going there to root for their team. I think the memes that come from it and the general paradigms that these streams shape are influential to people who sit on the sidelines.

roo may be a retard but he's good at debates.

Kinda interested in his book on Songun tbh. And his book on the Fallout universe because where else are you gonna find that? It's cool.

Need to study up before I do my marathon LPs of the Fallout games within an Unruhe Thought framework.

But you got trips and reminded me of better times when people said ninja'ed.

ooga booga

Fair enough.
From the knowledge I've gathered overtime and my own experience, I'd say otherwise. Still, I would like to be proven wrong.
I'll think about what you've said.

I thought the right couldn't meme

as brainlet as sargon is roo and the rest of the marxists that think imperialism is only capitalist and that the us is totally crumbling are equally braindead. read something other narrow political philosophy. some geopolitics and history.

ahahahahaha

Vietnam did so soyboy.

...

Hey, the Pentagon thinks so.
medium.com/insurge-intelligence/pentagon-study-declares-american-empire-is-collapsing-746754cdaebf

vietnam crumbled america like how your mom crumbled me after i piped her out for an hour and finally just nutted and stopped

I think thats bad measure of things. No one is trying to invade the US but the US does frequently invade the rest of the world. Vietnam broke America's gold cover and its never really been the same since–constant inflation with the trade deficits and budget deficits just keep pilling up and a slowly but steadily decreasing share of global manufacturing and the global economy itself. Something inevitably had to be done and thats why we have Trump but that's a good case of the cure being worse than the disease.

The last wars have only really been expensive but they have been terribly costly in terms of US deaths. Imo it would only take another high-casualty hot war to push the US into a serious domestic crisis.

do drone pilots getting carpal tunnel count?

the us not being totally dominant over post war ruined states = a crumbling empire. lmao.

the us is completely dominant in world affairs. the neoconservacucks in the pentagon are freaking out because the us isnt enjoying the ridiculously insane power gap it enjoyed post ww2. now its just enjoying a ridiculously sane power gap, on par with britain and other historical superpowers

what? like 3k deaths? thats nothing. the us has been at war in two different landlicked countries haldway across the world for more than a decade and the average us population doesnt feel a thing. literally people have to ask "are we still at war with (insert country). thats a privilege and a testament to the power and influence of the us. absolutely no other nation could do that

"It's not crumbling! It's not crumbling!" said an increasingly nervous man for the fifteenth time


Only if the pain is so mad they can no longer masturbate

*bad

More like 6,700 but whatever, notice I said high-casualty war. It's still been insanely expensive and the war debts will probably never be paid and as the US keeps going to war its safe to say the US is set to spiral into Japan-tier indebtedness, hell it may go on to rival Britain after the post-Napoleonic wars
clarionproject.org/us-fatalities-war-on-terror/

where is it crumbling? there have been reports of the us empire "crumbling" for like 20 years now. its only gotten more entrenched.

its absolutely ridiculous to think the us empire, only in existence for like, 80 years, will crumble. thats one lifetime. america has more power over the world than britain ever did, its enemies are weaker and farther than britain's ever were, but america is supposed to crumble 1/4 as long. why? cause you just really wanna see it crumble in your lifetime? get real.

Not either of the guys you are argueing with but the fall of the Roman empire lasted 100 years.

debt is money.

and the us is not japan. its currency is the reserve currency. and even if it wasnt everything at the end of the day comes down to force. one day the us says"im not going ot pay back the debt", or "im only paying you this much". what is the rest of the world going to do about it. not a damn thing other than bitch.

few outside powers hold the us debt anyway. most us debt is literally just owed to itself.

the fall. the empire itself lasted much longer. the us has only been in existence for 300 years. its hegemony is 80 years long. its a fucking baby. this isnt ending anytime soon. its mcdonalds and starbucks for the forseeable future. america might be the one to swallow the world, culturally politically, economically through capitalism and its power.

...

You sure? Because Britain once held the dominant share of world wealth, world manufacturing, trade, and economic output. Britain supported the confederacy during the Civil War and the US basically swallowed its pride like a bitch and let them get away with it. US industry overtook in the late 1880s and the US overtook the economic output of the British Empire in 1916 at the very earliest and that's based on Maddison's quite favorable numbers.

Britain during WWII and after was still a super-power and its wealth and colonial splendor caused a great deal of jealousy among the US elite. Britain still had a huge empire during its twilight years in the late 50s-60s. Its settler-colony offshoots are still heavy-hitters in economic output, so much so that one scholar very cleverly said that this world of British settler-colonialism constituted "a second United States"

Even with its atrocious economy and 100+ years of relative decline the City of London is still the capital of global finance and not Wall Street.

The US doesn't have the massive formal colonial market that Britain had, nor centuries of super-power connections. Capitalist super-power hegemony is typically far from being a long-lived experience because capitalism itself is unstable. Neocolonial rule, while more profitable (as Britain itself understood), is also considerably more unstable. America's decline will likely be more rapid and violent than Britain's has been.

The US is powerful but still on the downward slope much like Britain during the interwar years, it is very much a paradox that precisely as the British Empire was entering its death spiral that it was objectively more powerful then it had ever been during the 1920-30s.

US share of world output is probably lower than it was in the 1890s and the graph pictured stops at 1970 ignoring two decades of decline from 45% of world manufacturing to 30%. The US economy is also becoming considerably smaller as a share of world GDP. China is already larger in PPP terms.


And that is actually its biggest problem as there is a violent struggle between who will be forced to pay the taxes that go towards interest payments to US elite bondholders as well as their foreign friends. The public is being bled white to keep the charade going while the elite are playing less and less. The ability to pay and the political will to increase taxes or tax the rich at a rate that would make the debt serviceable is not there.

A country with decaying infrastructure, growing inequality, falling wages and falling life expectancy is a recipe for social dynamite.

This is its saving grace but this is only really valuable if it can capitalize on this fact. A weakening dollar combined with rising retaliatory tariffs may negate many of the benefits of this monetary imperialism. Alternatives such as the Yuan and the Euro are already being brought forward and a gold standard may easily make a come-back in international trade if a dying and depreciating fiat dollar can no longer reliably be used for international trade.

*overtook British industry

Did Unruhe really win?
Good for him, I s'pose. I started listening out of curiosity just now, and the start of this 2 hour+ YouTube celebrity bullshit is Unruhe's ideological life story. Anyone have a cliff's notes to direct me to?

I would also add that if the fall of the US seems quite far-fetched to you then consider the case of the USSR.

In the post-war era it was undoubtedly the world's largest economy and America's only serious military, economic, political, and ideological competitor. Even in the late 80s the Soviet Union was the world's second largest economy and the Comecon area represented an enormous share of the world's economic potential. In the 1960s, the Soviet working class had a West German standard of living and was widely considered a developed nation; by the 90s it descended into third world status and literally tore itself apart.

The Soviet Union's status as the world's "number two super-power" lasted from 1945-1992– just 47 years. The rapid fall or decline of the US is not unthinkable.

*second-largest

Carlgon admitted communism is inevitable (again), agreed with Kim Il Sung and proved totally unable to grasp basic concepts such as inflation and imperialism, going so far as to argue that because Sparta apparently went to war over honour capitalist imperialism don't real. Jason missed some opportunities to really spear him but otherwise the fact that he actually knew what he was talking about did a lot for him.

You can basically follow the entire debate by reading through

I hysterically laughed at this moment.

I'm gonna watch it later, but what??

Why is Carl saying Jason is wrong?

In fairness, I think it was just the statement that communism cannot exist for as long as imperialism exists. Still.

Because Carl is wrong.

UPHOLD MARXISM-SARGONISM!

Sargon "So, you only get Communism when you eliminate the State."
Jason "Yep."
Sargon "And you only eliminate the State when everybody goes Socialist."
Jason "Yep."
Sargon "But a worldwide Socialist revolution isn't going to happen, is it?"
Jason "Nope."
Sargon "So Communism is not going to happen is it?"
Jason "You're wrong."

This sums up the debate.

Carl couldn't understand Jason's point that cutting off the First World from its pillage by revolutions in the Third World would lead to revolution at home. To be fair though Jason did not explain this position adequately it was merely implicit in his argument IRCC

...

Sargon is insufferable, but Roo got many of his facts wrong.

A loaf of bread isn't $2 in Ghana. More like $1.10. Heck, a loaf of bread isn't $2 in most European countries.

Jason relies a lot on LLCO articles, which is highly suspect. I wonder how much of the "economic data" the LLCO provides is doctored to fit their agenda.

Jason seems to be putting all his eggs in one basket with the idea of a pan-Third World movement, which is utterly ridiculous. China and India, for instance, are on the brink of war. Iran and Turkey are obviously enemies. Most southeast Asian countries (Vietnam, Thailand, etc.) view Chinese chauvinism as a threat to their sovereignty, and this is something which goes back centuries. India has been soft imperialist towards its neighbors. Sub-Saharan African nations also have beefs with each other all the time. Does Roo honestly believe these countries are going to put aside all this and join together against the imperialist countries? It's foolish and has zero pragmatic reality.

What, so when non-white baby 50% +1 is born, you deport one of the nonwhites to get whites back to a majority? This sounds dumb.

Other examples:

Pakistan and Afghanistan haven't been on good terms considering the influx of Afghan refugees into Pakistan starting in 1979 and continuing to this day.

Laos and Cambodia hate Vietnam given that the Vietnamese have always been chauvinist towards Laotians and Khmers.

Armenia and Azerbaijan are still at war.

Senegal threatened to invade Gambia last year when their president refused to step down after being voted out.

Mexico deals with undocumented immigrants from Central American countries and many Mexicans hate them.

Palestinians are hated by the rest of the Arab World. Even Hasan Nasrallah said he wants the Palestinians out of Lebanon despite claiming to be highly invested in Palestinian liberation. The same was true of Assad's Syria. In fact, Hashemite Jordan has arguably killed more Palestinians than apartheid Israel.

But hey, we're supposed to be putting all our faith in the idea of a "pan Third World". Thanks Jason!

One more:

Ethiopia and Somalia have been in conflict over the Ogaden region.

ghanatrade.org/agricultural-import-ghana/

Yep, just as I expected: Ghana imports ALL of its wheat, hence why the price would be so relatively high.

Notice how neither Roo nor the LLCOcult talks about the price of foods which are grown locally in Ghana. Total selective sample fallacy.

this is where leftists tend to get it wrong. USpower isnt built on the satisfaction of it's people or it's workers. It isnt built on how friendly its relations are to the outside world.

These things are irrelevant to US power. As are all of the graphs you posted. None of that matters.

You wanna know what power is? Power is having the world's most powerful navy by several orders of magnitude. Its having simultaneously the biggest air force and the fucking second biggest airforce. Its having the power to literally shut down global trade at will if it wants to, and have the potential for autarky so as to suffer minimal damage to itself if it comes to that. Its the power to absolutely flatten any coastal city (where the wealth of any nation usually comes from) to absolute dust.

Thats real power. The US has it. Its the only one that has it. No other nation comes even close, not China. Not India. Not Russia. Not China, India, Russia COMBINED. And the US is so far ahead both technologically and militarily, that if it liteally stopped researching and building new ships today, China would still not catch up for a hundred years. Thats the extent of the power of the US. It is absolutely ridiculous.It is not in any danger of collapsing any time soon.

It isnt about your narrow understanding of imperialism. It isnt really even about capitalism. Its geopolitics and the reality on the ground. The US has the greatest advantage with the most potential, with the biggest navy, in the most secure area.

You should do a debate for real. Contact Sargon or whoever. You have more knowledge than any other poster here.

He is really pathetic

Debates are so hecking gay
They serve no purpose whatsoever

this is why i never watch them
video responses are already dreadful enough since people don't really bother much with effort, and still it's better since they can take some time to prepare to make their point

"debates" are nothing but sophistry, the maximum effort in preperation is forcing a talking point and repeating your believes, fact checking and giving source etc. just doesn't exist

The last country America beat in tactical warfare was Iraq. They're still trying to eliminate Taliban guerrillas in Afghanistan.
Saddam's Iraq did poorly against Iran, and their greatest military achievement was probably the invasion of Kuwait - who barely had a military to speak of. Not only was their force depleted by the ensuing gulf war (in the later Iraq War, many units of soldiers weren't even armed adequately), but Saddam didn't have 'WMDs' and so had limited recourse.

The invasion of Iraq was carried out by the US and several other countries - all with superior militaries, while Iraq had no international support to speak of and their invaders accepted the additional assistance of anti-Ba'athist rebel groups.

Prior to this, the US had lost (or compromised) in several of its interventionist wars. There's a pattern when looking at countries America has had definitive military successes* in within the past 30-or-so years - Saddam's depleted military in Iraq (formerly recipient of aid from Reagan), Panama with its 20k strong army led by School of the Americas graduate Manuel Noriega… not only hokey dictatorships that posed little real threat, but pies which the US already had its fingers in to begin with and nations which thusly were isolated as soon as the US turned on them.

Capitalism has never been tried! This wasn't real capitalism! My specific brand of capitalism has never been tried!

Wow, Jason was at some point not obese and unkempt.

Newfag, Jason hates us. Muke sadly, does kinda represent us.

So Sargon was Accelerationist gang all along…

Defending is just much easier than attacking today, because the attack costs a tremendous amounts of money, while the easily armed (often for free by politically motivated donations from abroad) locals can hold out and only give grounds slowly.
Yeah, the USA had sketchy invasions, but so did everyone else who attempted invasions in the last 20-30 years.
Who are you comparing the USA to, finding them inadequate? Some grand strategy video game? Compared to any other country, they are very good at modern war.

First phase - rule of soldiers. Centralization, establishment, build up, foundations of the state and civilization.
Second phase - rule of merchants. The wealth builds up, resources are extracted, production is maximized.
Third phase - rule of the people. Since the state is already established and centralized by the soldiers, and already made wealthy and developed by the merchants, it is now time to share it among ourselves justly.

Meanwhile, in history…

Sargon is right, a solid and long capitalist step is required, since capitalism expands the total wealth faster and better than socialism.
Only once the wealth and development are sufficient should the transition happen, and not before.

what I think Sargon actually means is that capitalist development (automatization, McDonalds robots etc) will eventually lead to a post-scarcity society by itself

he doesn't realize that this is not in the interest of the capitalist class, who NEED inequality and poverty - as such, this transition will never happen "naturally" and bloodlessly, it requires seizure of the means of production

Panama had the same amount of soldiers defending it when the US invaded as Kuwait did when Iraq invaded. So, accordingly, the closest comparison may be Saddam's crack shock squad.

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fuck. just trying to drop in to say: read "Aurora" by Kim Stanley Robinson

The USA defended its invasion of Panama, and Iraq could not defend its invasion of Kuwait.

Anyways, war is much different today, when everyone has a video recorder in their pocket and can report live on the spot to the whole planet, and everyone makes an archive copy of the footage. Democracies will struggle to fight wars, since now they actually have to do so in the open.

Panama didn't have 5 other countries coming to save it.

This is one point, but Jason is right that the USA can't just crush everybody they don't like anymore like they used to. Syria pretty much won against the US. The DPRK is deterring the US as well. Wars are getting so fucking expensive, and the public is ten times more critical of it than they used to, so that there is weird urge to keep up military spending to perpetuate the profit rate of the military industrial complex, but not an urge to actually use the military. That's why you get this constant fearmongering about Russia or North Korean nukes which ultimately amounts to nothing.

Yeah I don't think most people realize how exhausted, overstretched and tapped-out the U.S. military is right now. It's a lot of work trying to maintain a big army, a ginormous money-sucking air force, and a globe-spanning navy. Morale is in the toilet and the USAF is short several hundred fighter pilots. You have airmen turning down half-a-million-dollar re-enlistment bonuses. (A guy I went to school with was an all-American, pro-tier Navy helicopter pilot who was in for a decade and thanked God Almighty when his paperwork to get him out of the military finally went through.)

This doesn't mean the proletarian third-world uprising is imminent or anything. But when generals complain to Congress how they need more money, it's not simply because the military always has to rationalize why they need more money. They really do need more of it to do what the U.S. government is demanding with all these global "presence" and deterrence ops. The military budget is insanely big, but it has effectively been an austerity budget for a decade.

Also, in a regional, limited, conventional war with a country such as China, the U.S. could very likely lose.

Muke also hates Holla Forums

i mean it just makes sense, to cut US losses, this is the cycle.

What if i read it but understood like 30 pages of it?

Says a goy who thinks communism means big guvmunt


Nigga there's a video of Jason getting triggered over Holla Forums maymays
youtube.com/watch?v=3ce69qdGF8I

BTW, when will Jason stop having that retarded SJW hair? He's only embarrassing himself with that.

Good post on the debate, hosted on jason's channel:

pastebin.com/X4piPJL8

skipped the debate because of irl shit, someone give me a rundown on what Carl thinks inflation is

Russia are also doing their own fear mongering, in reverse. They are making themselves appear stronger and scarier than they are, to keep the current regime in power, and to justify some sacrifices the public makes.
So USA makes Russia look like a threat to justify spending, and Russia pretends its a threat to justify its economic situation, and both pretend that Russia is the USSR and that a second world power exists.
In reality as hard as it is for the USA to wage war like they used to, its army, navy and airforce are by far the strongest on the planet. The USA can only be challenged internally. which is why all the foreign investment and bribing is happening, as well as the fake news shit everyone is mad about.

This, does anyone have a timestamp for that?

Caesar invaded Britain because some of the Gallic noblemen fled to Britannia after being defeated by Caesar and the Britons were collaborating with Gauls.

Sargon confirmed for not reading the Gallic wars.

Printing more money, yknow, like the Zimbabwe-eans did.

...

Well, in the case of China, it's conceivable China could mass superior forces in its backyard while the U.S. cannot because it's so overstretched. Basically say goodbye to those U.S. air bases in Okinawa and Japan because of ballistic missiles, and also consider that every ship in port at Yokosuka is going to get targeted.

Chinese warships now have superior anti-ship weapons to the U.S. Navy.

It certainly doesn't help that the US is busy sinking trillions into planes that don't fly and boats that don't float.

Wrong, China is number two in the world in high-quality science:
counterpunch.org/2016/05/18/china-closes-the-innovation-gap-surges-to-worlds-second-in-high-quality-science/

That was somewhat true more than a hundred years ago but it definitely isn't true anymore, as Donald Trump is about to find out.

Ghana only costs 15% lower than America. Roo is correct.

My man you don't have any clue about anything you're talking about.

Maybe it's Sargon undercover trying to salvage his reputation

Hehe

he would literally probably say this

aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html

Wtf Holla Forums you told me Sargon would win

comment section has some really thought-provoking material in it

It's fucking cancer. Hopfully this is one of the last times I'll be on Sargoys channel.
Can someone host the leftists vs liberal debates from him somewhere else that isn't a cash whore just for the meme value.

I kind of wish that all the people making up gay "I wAs TotEs Grwoing uP in ComunisM" actually did so that they could get sent to a gulag.

Alright boys tell me why this thread is cloned on some weird as website
hollaforums.com/thread/2427442/activism/post-sargon-vs-jason-debate-thread.html

i haven't even read capital. and i know that communist ideology is infallible and right, you don't need to read the entire book to understand its main arguments. and only a complete and total fucking retard would think they "don't make sense" like libertarians and the common sense sargon type faggots

Pretty sure hollaforums just scrapes 8ch/halfchan threads for… some reason. ISTR hearing they could make money from it somehow.

seems legit

wtf is hollaforums? How does it work?

It's one guy who does this and it's gone by a couple different names, sheekyforums, cheekyforums, etc.
Basically this dude mines chan data in order to make his website look populated and active in order to sell ads. And of course search terms allow him to occasionally make it to first page on google. Win/win $$$$$
I'd be curious how much money this sort of grift actually makes.

I don't know but this is not the first time I've come across a leftypol thread on there

it's just a site that capitalizes off of Holla Forums being delisted from google, so it uses a scraper to scrape the threads from here and put them on there. someone explained it to me in more detail, but I have already forgot.

maybe also works as a .pl-style normie deflector?

Try hooktube

you could of watched it on jason's channel

lmao

Well, shit.

...

He's reclaiming punk hair.

Oh my fucking God he's so stupid.
Really shows their mindset though, always some Autism Level89 emotive bullshit, they haven't evolved past the 19th century.

did carlgon take the video down or is it just me? The stream is still up on Jason's channel.

If he took the video down out of embarrassment I might just die from laughing.

It is still working for me tho.
youtube.com/watch?v=J7E4BkZEcAg

yeah its working for me now. False alarm i guess.

"Its Impossible for a "Pan-Third World" Revolution to succeed because as we have seen throughout history third World Socialist/Communist Revolution is always halted by 1st world capitalist powers"

If Sargon had just said that it would have debunked half the shit Roo said
But of Course Carlgon is to stupid to realize that
He simply reverts back to "Muh body counts and dictators" and when Roo didnt immediately pull a Dem-Soc/Soc-Dem and claim "Not Real Socialism" Sargon began to collapse

pot calling the kettle black

Has anyone made a compilation video yet?

...

Okay Jason, how does capitalism emanate from imperialism? Not even speaking about the pragmatist aspect, just speaking purely about ontology: how do you justify the idea that imperialism is the base and capitalism the superstructure without falling into (the bad kind of) idealism?

I normally like Roo but he was terribly sloppy here.

For one thing, he contradicts himself multiple times throughout the debate. He says Chinese workers aren't going to get wage increases or safety regulations because China can't afford them, but then once Sargon brings up the regulations they already have Roo does a total 180 and says China "isn't really" 3rd world.

He also bursts into anger several times throughout the debate which just makes him look unruly.

Has anyone produced a best of video yet? The sheer meaty Autism of the first five minutes put me off

Am I the only one who thinks Roo is going to convert to Shia Islam, change his name to Abdallah or Ali, and defect to Iran as a "dissident"? He's getting closer and closer to NazBol by the day.

aren't Hezbollah quasi socialist?

If by "socialist" you mean "turd position" then yes.
jacobinmag.com/2016/12/hezbollah-lebanon-iran-islamic-revolution-labor/

TL;DR - they are class-collaborationists who are strongly supported by Shia elites. Imam Ali was not a proto-socialist, more like a proto-succdem, and "Islamic socialism" has always been closer to fascism than Marxism.

t. raised Muslim

Surely they're a better alternative to Zionism for the region. After all, is Social Democracy in the third world not objectively revolutionary?

And? The assertion presented here was whether or not Hezbollah is semi-socialist. The answer is clearly no.

Class collaborationism is never revolutionary. Hezbollah is much more in-line with Shia elites than with the Lebanese working people. If they take power, they'll just sell out Lebanon to some imperialist power.

it objectively is, read Mao

The National Bourgeoisie wasn't calling the shots during New Democracy, the communists were.

Hezbollah gives no indication that they plan on implementing a truly proletarian political program. I reiterate, "Islamic socialism" has always been turd position and profoundly anti-Marxist.

Jason did poorly. He's not a debater. What stuck out to me the most was how Sargon said "there's nothing wrong with inequality" and Jason had practically no response to it.

Jason missed a lot of points which a Marxist could have answered clearly (stuff about the falling rate of profit or overproduction as a result of UBI, for instance). He also contradicted himself more than a few times.