Leftism and dating social dynamics

I think the (American) left is doing itself a huge disservice by refusing to acknowledge that there is a lot of truth in the idea that modern dating culture is extremely lopsided to benefit women as a whole, and meanwhile only the very top tier of men are reaping the benefits. This isn't some mass delusion that incels came up with. I have lots of leftist or plain liberal friends who have voiced extremely similar complaints over the years. Women have a massive pool of options when it comes to dating. They know this, so they are extremely picky with who they let into their life. Any man who isn't at the top of the social ladder has to fight for scraps and hope that he gets noticed.

There is a lot of data (which has already been posted again and again, look it up) to support all of this. Millions of millennial men are single, still live at home well into their 20s and have extremely little financial stability. So not only are average/ugly looking men already at a huge disadvantage based on their looks, but many of them also lack the important secondary qualities that women look for in a partner (independence, financial stability and future prospects). Why is the left so unwilling to talk about these issues just because aut-rightists have picked up on those ideas?

Modern dating and attitudes surrounding romantic relationships have changed massively over the last 20 years. Millions of young men are feeling alienated because of this and are being turned into reactionary parasites. Why the fuck wouldn't you want to stop this trend from accelerating instead of being snarky and telling forever alone incels to fuck off?

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Didn't we have this thread already?

This "issue" is a symptom of a wider social media-induced paranoia. When everybody obsessively curates a public facing front it's easy to come to the conclusion that you're defective in some way, when literally everybody else is suffering from the same misgivings. As a demographic, male/female alike, millennials are fucking way less than previous generations. If you walk away from this very material misery with bullshit reactionary conclusions about "female hypergamy" or any other incel shit, then you deserve to be mocked for falling for a spook.

This. Bitching about "muh hypergamy" is idealist as fuck.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the million of single men who have dropped out of the dating pool.

Way to completely invalidate your post by showing you don't have even basic understanding of this issue

It's also worth mentioning that while there are far more female virgins than male, something like 2/3rds of women who do wind up having sex don't even orgasm because men are so shit at it. If you had to deal with an entire generation of retards raised on porn you'd also probably being searching around for somebody who could actually satisfy you.

Men are fucking less than men previously.
Women are fucking less than women previously.

But somehow it's a men's problem. Sounds a little "idpol" to me.

Sexual liberation is the only way to go, frankly just do what I do, keep going until one of them says yes and then have sex and keep going using this technique, if you're looking for a emotional connection, then sorry to tell you buddy but not in this lifetime.


If everyone is fucking less in general is there really a problem?

I think the (American) left is doing itself a huge disservice by refusing to acknowledge that talking about sex is meaningless, and the only thing that matters is increasing working conditions, healthcare and education for workers of every race and gender.


In what way is it zero sum misery.
How is lack of sex a problem.

I know this opinion is not the one anyone want's to hear, but the problem is communication.
Men and women have forgotten to be vulnerable to one another. Maybe it's the culture, but every time I hear one person talking about the problems they have dating, it's usually because men are super insecure and can't communicate their insecurities, women can't communicate their needs sexually or otherwise, and the media runs on the these insecurities and uses shame tactics to perpetuate problems because it sells. Then you have no one talking honestly with another.

Sex is good.

Quintessentially this, no one is willing to be open nowadays, women are afraid of men and men are afraid of women, but on the topic of sex, you need to learn to focus only on sex and not on personality, you will find more enjoyment than any emotional relationship can ever give.


What's this? A not completely useless reply by spurdoposter?

Hey man just because you don't agree with my political theories doesn't make them useless.

yeah dude the only thing that people care about in life is their job, nobody has any interests outside of that whatsoever, any problems people have outside of their work aren't real problems

what if millennials are having less sex because the lonely men are driving down the average?

wow what a shithole this thread turned into.

Yeah, now that you're here it really has turned into one hasn't it?

didn't mean to sage

we've had this thread for many, many times and I doubt something new will come out of this


Can all redditors who think that 'sage' is a downvote please fuck off?

This is a very relevant social and demographic trend.

the atomisation of contemporary society is simply a consequence of capitalism's endless drive to reduce workers to profit-producing machines.
Kill capitalism and liberalism and we'll have ourselves a society structured in a more organic communitarian manner without urbanism and its associated ills which drive the atomisation of society, destruction of all interpersonal relations but ones of employment thus alienating you fundamentally from other individuals.

This is why we ancaps make fun of you guys constantly.

this is why communists make fun of people who don't read books

pretty gud ancap impersonation

What does she want done again? Like go tell women to start fucking incels?


We have a sociey of scared neurotics raised by the T.V and the tablet generation will be worse. Maybe socialist orgs can hold re-socialization events to build community and encourage relationships of not only the sexual variety but to also rebuild adult friendships. A lot of young adults barely have friends.

Also I can see how we should address young mens concerns about the the current and alienating dating scence but to suggest it's a female conspiracy is "state mandated GF" cringe shit and will fail to attract any women to the movement.

Same thing feminists want from men, a change in attitudes.

How come feminists think it's possible for male society to be able to change their attitudes wrt women/sex/etc, but then when you ask women to do the same you get a thread full of liberals using sage as a r*ddit downvote?

You know theres always that one fat girl with a great personality who smiles at you.

She wants certain groups of people to fuck eachother. how do we do that?


Neither of you are engaging with me in any meaningful way. You're just shitposting.

I'll ask again,

How come feminists think it's possible for male society to be able to change their attitudes wrt women/sex/etc, but then when you ask women to do the same you get a thread full of liberals using sage as a r*ddit downvote?

How come women think it's absurd to ask them to check their privilege when it comes to dating and actually do something to change their attitudes towards dating/romance? How come these same women demand that men change society according to their feminist views ?

Expecting individuals to 'change their attitudes' is wishy washy liberal nonsense. We must change the structure of society to change daily life.

You're right. The internet right-wing has a very successful narrative on this stuff. What kind of story does the left have to offer to incels, PUAs, MGTOWs and the like? This is an important question to ask.

In my opinion, we need a completely different perspective on this stuff. I'm thinking that first of all, we should focus less on sex. This "crisis" isn't about men's inability to get their dick wet. Getting laid can't fill the hole they're feeling, and it seems like no one on the right is willing to acknowledge this. They're too obsessed with the modern fetishism of sex, and the supposed evolutionary logic behind it, which is an obvious spook. That's where we can come in.

So what would the left-wing alternative to these communities look like?

Pick-up art would become an art focusing on having a rich and fulfilling interaction with a stranger of the other sex. It would be an exercise in overcoming social anxiety and daring to show your best self to someone who interests you. Sex can be a part of it, but it's only secondary.

MGTOW would be a movement focusing on self-improvement and expression, and being a meaningful friend, family member, and participant in society. It would lack the "men" part, and be open to both genders. The "going their own way" refers to the leaving behind of the ratrace of traditional gender interactions and instead focusing on enrichment of the self.

A left-wing incel would be someone who feels lonely because of his alienation from the social sphere. They shouldn't feel anger towards women, but towards capitalist society, for taking from people a caring community to fall back on. It should be stressed, however, that this is a problem that can be overcome, with the construction of new ways of being together.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these ideas? Would they appeal to anyone presently involved in this nonsense, or is it a lost cause?

But that is EXACTLY what many leftists expect out of men. Self-proclaimed leftists demand that individual men change their attitudes wrt the opposite sex.

The same leftists then turn around and claim it's absurd for men to ask the same of women when it comes to this one issue.

Is this some from of idpol?

what leftists?

Great response Holla Forums, libs BTFO.

Sometimes I wonder if there are two separate Holla Forums boards, and sometimes I wander into the shallow end of it.

Posts like these too. This is a disconnect between theory and the real world. We have theories so we can improve things, yet user here just wants to sit on a vague understanding of Marx's work and ignore any modern materialist look at the world.
Hey kids, can you say "lifestylist"?

Disconnected between what the average person wants and his own wants, sad.

Wow, an user that actually attempts to make a materialist analysis. We are truly blessed today.

t.guy who looks at forest and sees no trees

The opposite is true. That is exactly why left must not focus only on bettering material conditions of workers.

If you'd work 30 hours/week for very decent pay and no fear of getting sick, you have enough time, and good mental state to face any problem in your life.

I can, and to give an example of such person, (you) are the one.

We must further showcase the fact that what is to blame for the atomisation of individuals are systemic problems like the lack of free time permitting people to live out their lives due to far overlong working hours, insecure employment and housing which deprives people of good prospects for long-term relationships. Urbanism which cramps people into living arrangements not conducive to community and places individuals into a throng of people so great that establishing interpersonal relationships in daily life is impossible and reducing us to the 'professional' sphere of employment for our human interactions where we strictly separate our cramped home lives from our bleak external daily lives where human interaction exists only within the alienating relations of employee and customer or employee and employee.

The movement against capitalism and for communism must be for restructuring our daily lives towards livability, that is security in employment with short work hours, security in housing and security in community. These factors will allow people to flourish more and engage with their fellows in a more carefree way. Capitalism makes schizophrenics of us all and we can't relate to one another healthily in that state.

That's accurate, but I don't go into the one Socialist community(?) I'm aware of and make shitty analysis while acting like some OG socialist. Sage for nothing but catfight

Get the fuck out of my thread, motherfucker.

and what exactly are those "scraps"? women that don't get noticed by you because you're picky by any chance?
so basically you're talking about human relationships getting reduced to economic benefits and shit
and that's something we don't adress?

shit has changed but the reasons behind it did not.

Great argument, Peterson

i assume he means liberal feminist idiots

Nuke all incels

Women are naturally more selective with who they partner with. This stems from the fact they can only pass their genes forward once in every 9 months and it is a very intensive and risky process. Men on the other hand can impreganete multiple women every day.
In recent years women are finaly gaining back the oportunitty of choosing who they partner with. A few decades ago it was expected of most women to marry early and dating around to choose a good partner was shunned uppon. It only gets worse if you go further back with planned marriages and all that.

For me the real problem is beauty culture and popular media raising standards of how people should look and how relationships should be to impossible levels. This creates a dating market where the best qualities in partners are the ones that can be acquired like A strong body (free time for gym and fitness products), good clothing, expensive makeup, phones, hobbies and the like. People often say this directs partners to go for succesfull members of our society and I agree but its not absolute. I think it leads people to partners who look like they spend alot in their persona. That's why you see a lot of chads who are poor but save their money to buy the aformentioned products and may apear rich when in a party or date. The fact that they are not succesfull will not put the partner of becuse its just the looks that matter.

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Lol yeah, cuase you see, theyre also scraps.

In my opinion, we need a completely different perspective on this stuff. I'm thinking that first of all, we should focus less on sex. This "crisis" isn't about men's inability to get their dick wet. Getting laid can't fill the hole they're feeling, and it seems like no one on the right is willing to acknowledge this. They're too obsessed with the modern fetishism of sex, and the supposed evolutionary logic behind it, which is an obvious spook.
Speaking as a devil's advocate, my first thought would have been 'those white cuck jew soyboy commie niggers are trying to keep the white race from breeding'. Or something like that, some idea that you're trying to peddle a conspiracy to keep men down.

Although I agree that incels should be more focused on community and better social relations, I am not sure how to get them there. Sex is a powerful motivator when you have not had it, and simply trying to tell people 'it's not as good as they tell you' doesn't usually work. Once they've gotten their dicks wet once or twice, they may understand and be more open to a richer, more fulfilling experience. Before that point though, I can't see how "respect for all, understand the material limitations of capitalism, let's build a better society together and if there's sex involved then that's cool but if there's not well that's okay too!" will beat out "FUCK WHORES NOW 5 EASY STEPS TO GETTING THOT PUSSY RIGHT NOW STEP 1) ITS THE COMMIES FAULT THEY WON'T FUCK YOU" in the average virgin's mind.

This doesn't provide immediate answers. Of course, we should do all these things, but to really speak to people on the level right-wingers have managed to do, we must give something more. How can people break through the logic of the system right now?

Maybe what I'm advocating is a kind of self-conscious lifestylism. Not one where you LARP as a revolutionary with no actual intent of changing anything, but one where you adopt a certain lifestyle to try and find new ways of living together. To, alongside your more serious revolutionary action, try to reshape your own life to have a certain subversive effect on your environment, and to break through the alienating effects of capitalism.

A good example is to, instead of pursuing a career, try and provide a direct value to the people around you. Care for your family. Organize something for your community. Build something worthwhile with your friends. Maybe do some volunteering, although that may already be a bit too embedded in the system.

Does that make sense? My idea is to apply that kind of logic to sexuality. How can you not play the game normally played, and just do what's natural for you and good for the people around you?

All those cute leftist girls on twitter won't fuck you just because you make fun of anyone who dares question modern feminism bro

All those cute leftist girls on twitter will only fuck the popular leftist chads, i.e not you

get lost you fucking nerd

Society of the Spectacle: Being -> Having -> Appearing

To me it's obvious that trying to "be attractive" is a waste of time, in that you're pandering to a set of expectations created by capital anyway. Instead, the goal should be to be seductive in the Baudrillardian sense- to be of the order of challenge and of the game. This is a way of conceiving an enchanted universe where the play of appearance is entrancing, instead of the coldness of fascination:

Fascinated with porn, jacking it without and then- why not?- images of sex. Fascination with the news, the controlled demolition of this society played out on screens… Fascination is cold in the sense that it's a calculated stance taken when the set up is seemingly understood.

Seduction is about changing the terms of the debate, changing the stakes or realizing that the stakes aren't what you were. Baudrillard writes that you can't seduce unless you are seduced, meaning that you will never enter into an enchanted universe as long as in the back of your head you're going "I am this. I need that. I want X, I am defined by Y."

Part of the problem for virgins is that you can't really imagine what chad is doing since chad isn't really going for sex and if he is, it's because he's been seduced into this conception by a meta-process happening on a different plane. Meanwhile you are so focused on sex it's like the monkey with its paw stuck in the jar. Not letting go prevents you from getting what you want.

Also, it has to be said that sex is everywhere but in sex. Capitalist production is leading to the interpenetration (penis) of all things, the enveloping (vagina) of all things within one hegemonic order. People don't compare the state to a mother or father for nothing.

Lol you're such a fucking bully faggot. We need to get to more of a carnival situation, open up society and have big rave orgies like Christians (!) had in the woods in the US in the 19th century. How about you take your "the future will be like the past" bullshit and set yourself on fire.

geez dude calm down youre gonna give yourself a heart attack lol


The term you are looking for is: "Marxist-Leninist State". You fucking brainlet.

This isnt /r9k/ but seriously to all the lefty virgins here. Work out, get fit and go hang out at the bar and chat up some ladies.

your bound to get a bite if you fish long enough.

Literaly not even this. A lot of people in here have valuable insights into societal operations and social relations. You know men generally are not the most respectful towards women and you know the way people appreciate real connection and not just alienating consumer interests. If you talk about these things and incorporate them into your personality in a non-tinfoil way you can have nice conversations with people. Intelligence is attractive, just read and practice and even if you're overweight you're going to have people who like you.

Everytime, haha.

I don't want this though… Isn't that obvious? Who would want to play through these bizarre and artificial rituals?

The problem is simple, people are obsessed with things that won't make them happy so that they can avoid being /embarrassed/ about their weakness in the face of capital. They need the approval of capital to participate in society therefore we are all self effacing, partly because we fear not being good enough the subjective component and partly because we fear being a burden on others the objective component.

I don't have a girlfriend because I can't afford to pay for dates and I don't have many clothes. First and foremost I'm simply embarrassed about my economic position but I get along with everybody just fine.

The left needs to present a healthy model of masculinity to counter the incel-volcel defeatism out there (and the sort of alpha posturing prevalent in 'red pill' culture, which is just over-compensation anyway).

Sure, we can acknowledge the fact that modern dating culture disadvantages many men. We can point out capitalism as the main driver of this (consolidating resources among an increasingly smaller percentage of men). But unless we present a real alternative, just addressing the problem would get little traction.

The left has the working class archetype of man as builder. Unlike incel culture that wallows in self-pity, and 'red pill' culture which emphasizes sexual strategy, we could get to the root of the problem—the crisis of masculinity in late capitalism.

The builder can work with his hands. The builder creates. The builder doesn't need to be solely reliant on an employer to thrive.

I grew up in a rural area where most of the men weren't well off. But they were often tradesmen (carpenters, electricians, plumbers, landscapers, etc.), and women are attracted to this material value-creation.

That doesn't mean men need to become tradesmen. But it does mean getting off the computer regularly and interacting with meatspace.

There's also men being selective with women. Too often the PUA 'Red Pill' model involves men meeting women in clubs, which often means meeting drama-prone women & gold-diggers (increasing mens' cynicism towards dating). Meeting good women means breaking the atomization and integrating in communal spaces (recreational classes—whether art, athletics, writing, or whatever you're into—is a good way to start).