So how do y'all account for the fact that people don't want to work? I perused a few of your threads and came to realize this board is mostly just communist larping.
So how do y'all account for the fact that people don't want to work...
quality op, rly made me think
Laziness is good. The goal of communism is to eventually abolish work altogether.
people love to work. they don't like being made to work, or to do tedious or thoughtless work every day, or spending their lives being humiliated for minimum wage
but to say people just don't want to work, as though the average person would be content being an inert mass doing nothing, is just frankly untrue
Well I mean, I'm sure some people are perfectly content rotting in front of a computer all day, but really, to say all of them are would be projecting on your end.
Communism aims to minimize working hours.
This used to be one of the main talking points of communism before the movement got coopted into liberal idpol.
Lurking in a few threads does not stop you from being a dumb frogposter.
What the fuck else is an imageboard going to be retard?
So the crux of the counterargument is "lol yes people want to work".
Did you forget your pepe image for this post?
Typical Holla Forums scum.
Did you forget the part where you make an argument for this post?
That's because that's an utterly absurd argument. Abolishing work will only be possible through technology that doesn't exist yet.
yeah but it can be a goal on the horizon, as you said
Meanwhile we can reduce working hours.
Are arguments required for posting?
What if he was just laughing at you?
Sure it's a goal, but it has nothing to do with communism. Regardless it's tangential to the topic at hand, so to bring it up is simply fallacious.
It has everything to do with communism.
Communism is the WORKER's movement intended to change the present state of things in favor of the worker.
Working less with no downsides is obviously in any worker's interest.
You're missing the primary point though which is that people will simply not work if they have the option not to.
Think about what the rich will do when they no longer need the working class to generate wealth.
well i can safely assume once work hours are vastly reduced, bullshit jobs are pruned, communist work ethic makes working more bearable, communist education teaches people the importance of work and contributing to society NEETS would become quite uncomon. Still society should deal with remaining neets as they see fit, be it forced labor ignoring them, or whattever people think its reasonable.
dont project your lazyness on others
Do you have any proof that any of this is possible or feasible or is it just larping?
What jobs might these be? If they weren't producing revenue for their employers then they wouldn't exist.
Are you disabled? Regardless of wether or not you think communism works you should be able to think of jobs that exist under captialism that will become unnecessary.
Appeal to ridicule is worthless. Yes, I'm demanding hard examples and if you can't provide any your claim is worthless.
For all the thought you all have put into "the revolution" the amount and quality of arguments you've all put up for what I would assume would be one of the most basic problems have been pathetic so far.
You cant playtest economic systems, captalism was made on the go and is still being tweaked acordingly.
We went from banging sticks to sending people to the moon and fusing atoms, and this sounds unreasonable?
Human behaviour has changed drastically all over history and also geographically. Most pre rural hunter gatherers had an almost communist methods of organization and property relations?
Tells you a lot about capitalism doesn't it?
Production under communism is not profit oriented it is socialy oriented. Jobs that have no use for society can be erased. Telemarketing, marketing, many Truck drivers (trains>trucks), thousands of factories producing literal trash like pic related… are a few examples.
The great majority of worker rights around the globe were conquered by socialist movements including: paid vacation, healthcare, safety standards, end of child labor, 8 hour workday, women vote… the list goes on.
Most jobs in banking, sales and marketing to name the obvious.
You were not specific at what stage of communism you were talking about so i assumed you were talking about end game communism.
Immediatly after a revolution currency is still in use and people are still motivated to work by not starving.
How will anything get done?
most work is exactly that, even the so-called exciting jobs like being a doctor.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you have no proof but it's possible because come on man like technology and stuff?
Except people don't generally act in the best interest of society, they act in their own best interests, which is why so many people don't work if they have the option not to. What you're espousing merely demonstrates a poor understanding of game theory.
Don't get me wrong, I understand there can be benefits to a command economy, just as there are obvious benefits and problems involved with capitalism, which is why no nation is purely either. However, the entire theme of this thread has been nothing but lack of evidence, ad hominems and other fallacies.
That being said, some of your list of useless professions are valid, some are not. But I'm not going to get baited away from the primary premise which is that people still simply won't work, and no one has provided any evidence to the contrary.
you fucking wish you nerd lmao
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you have no proof but it's possible because come on man like technology and stuff?
I am no trying to prove it by using technology, I am using technology as an exaple on how humanity changes and progresses over time what seems impossible today might not really be. I am not giving you a step by step plan on how to implement socialism perfectly because it's just useless abstraction. The best proof i can give you is how pre agrarian societies viewed property and organized. As i said economic systems aren't planned, they are implemented on the go.
No one is asking for anyone to act on the best interest of society, we are asking for people to recognise that if we don't work society breaks, not crashing society is on everyone's best individual interest. If people stopped working we would all be fucked the same way be it in communism or any other society so nothing new here. Besides a communist society should aim to make work more bearable reducing the burden.
If the cost of communism is having a few parasite neets i don't give two shits about them, let's see how long they can carry the shame. i am sure most people wouldn't mind either as most people don't really mind welfare queens.
forgot > on first sentnece
Well as long as we're on the same page.
Except it is something new. The state garnishes wages and distributes it regardless of how much any individual contributes. You can ask all you want, but there's countless examples that people will ignore you.
Sure. Welfare, NEETs, and the huge chunk of people unemployed and not looking for work.
When did I or Marx advocate for this?
If people decide some workers should be rewarded more for their work, so be it. Communism is not about equality.
What part of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" means everybody gets the same?
Most people under welfare are working and most of those who are not eventually find a job. Welfare queens are a irrelevant minority.
A modern phenomenon fruit of capitalist material condittions many neets would leave neetdom if working was not absolute shit as it is in capitalism(remember the goal is to make work the most bearable as possible)
Acording to the world bank around 5.8% of the world's potential workforce is unemployed how many of those do you belive are not working fora job considering the world we live?
All the examples you cited are irrelevant minorities.
looking for a job*
Sadly this is just ignorance on your part. Notice how I specified "not looking for work". The unemployment index doesn't count those are are not searching for work. If you look at the actual amount of people with no jobs that number is much larger. Larger than 40%. So no, it's not an irrelevant minority. Even anecdotally, all of my friends only want to make a lot of money so that they don't have to work anymore. This is not an uncommon or unbeknownst phenomenon, you are merely being purposefully disingenuous so as to attempt to further your cause. And I would like to bring up once again that not a single person has failed to offer any proof that the average person will choose work (which, for most jobs, even ones with decent wages, is tedious and repetitive) over not work.
people with no jobs accounts for children and elders you dumb fuck that's why it's 40%. If 40% of the total labor force were unemplyed we would be fucked.
I'm seriously spoonfeeding you facts about reality and you have the nerve to call me a dumbfuck? You impudent retard. Why don't you try going back to google another time to find the real number of people out of work. Because I can guaranfuckingtee you it's higher than 6%.
I like how you just reiterate your point with a link as if I didn't already get the picture. Get it through your head: THOSE NUMBERS ARE ONLY COUNTING PEOPLE WITH A JOB **AND SEARCHING FOR ONE*. IT SAYS FUCK ALL FOR THOSE WITHOUT A JOB AND NOT SEARCHING FOR ONE
I understand I'm shattering your communist reality here but please have a little more dignity and respect.
I MEAN WITHOUT A JOB
This post is worth this whole thread
Are you sargon?
are you guys gonna argue against him or what
so are you assuming all those people don't work because they don't want to?
Most of them are probably housewifes or people who live doing what they can to survive, both examples are still work and can be quite hard.
I guaranfuckingtee 40% of the world is not living on welfare.
Yeah well you forgot the whole reason that was brought up was because it was claimed that people "love to work!" apparently. That point was utterly destroyed into a million pieces. If the true unemployment rate is as high as 40% then that begs the question of how many of those participating in the labor force would quit if they weren't force to via circumstance? Aka, they have a need for money so they are forced into being productive for society. Guess what Lenin? Dishes will still get dirty after the revolution. Laundry will still need to be done after the revolution. There's countless menial jobs that still need to be done after the revolution. Yet you're saying the people who do these jobs won't suddenly stop if you're offering them a free pass at life? Look how small the labor force participation is already. Society will completely collapse if you do this. And that's exactly what's happened EVERY time a strong command economy has been tried, which is why anyone with a decent head on their shoulders can see that communism has been reduced to a fringe meme ideology.
No point he seems pretty heated he'll probably post a few more times misinterpret afew more statements and attack a couple broad assertions while making them himself, then pat himself on the back and be on his self congratulatory way.
Except it didn't
forget Imperialism, Revisionism, Wars, Embargos those never happened.
You could try doing your side a solid in this thread and be the first to provide 1 shred of evidence that any of the revolution will go as you all say it will instead of flinging ad hominems and other pointless posts. You will note that I've repeatedly asked for evidence and received none. That would be a good start. You will not reply to this post with evidence. Evidence is you and your ilk's weakness. You are simply an anti-intellectual.
No no it was laziness this frogposter has unraveled communism.
Your delusion is palpable.
what a retard
He never said communism hasn't been tried and also why would we provide evidence when you made the assertion that it is a fact people don't want to work?
You must be a serious brainlet. Also I like how you're tacitly admitting you literally have no evidence, which implies this entire movement is nothing but feelings and idealism driven. You could at least provide circumstantial evidence.
First of all I shouldn't have to provide evidence for the claim that people don't want to work. That would be like asking for evidence that water is wet. Secondly, I DID in fact already provide evidence that people don't want to work. The sheer number of people not working alone proves that people do not want to work. No one ever complains about not having to clock in every day to perform menial tasks. The fact that you're even suggesting this in the first place just shows that you're at a loss for how to combat this one simple, pointed question and so you've had to resort to being disingenuous.
You really don't practice what you preach do you and you seem to think you are somewhere other than a Mongolian cp site.
This is how retarded you sound.
along with you
go ahead and prove it if it's so evident, you said it yourself you can prove anything here
I love sargonite "intellectuals"
Yeah you're simply not trying. I already proved it. I'm beginning to see the caliber of human requires to believe in communism.
God you are hilariously un-selfaware.
Perhaps I am, but honestly I think this classification applies far worse to you and everyone of your ilk in this thread than it does to me. Literally still not YET has there been 1 shred of evidence provided for any of your beliefs, yet you still cling to them. You are clearly hostile towards me, and you could easily destroy me if you had any evidence, but you just don't. Not only that, someone earlier even admitted that there was none. It's incredibly clear that all of you are poor and feel like you deserve to have more (presumably because you think you're smarter than you are). So the cognitive dissonance is too strong when you're confronted with a simple question that you cannot answer. A question that has plagued all past communist regimes. The people simply do not work. So much so that a common saying was invented to explain this phenomenon: "I pretend to work and you pretend to pay me". That's the gist of communism and that's what you're going to get no matter what special little trick you try to use.
How can we expect honesty from you when you have such a loaded ideological view on communists.
As it was stated before, right after the revolution currency is still used and people work for survival as they do in capitalism so no one will stop working just because, society is then shaped to be more comfortabable for workers. Money would only be romeve on the later stages when ideology and behaviour are fundamentaly changed. BTW no one cited tasks like laundry as useless, and still most people do their own laundry guess you don't.
You say people will not be willing to work under communism based on the fact that many people don't work now.
About the people who don't work now.
Al you provided is a number on unemployment and assumed those people would not be willing to work under socialism and taht they don't work beacuse they don't want to.
If people don't like working the best thing you can do to make them work (aside from forcing them) is to improve working conditions and make work more bearable.
I could say people who are not willing to work under capitalism could be more likely to work under socialism.
People not willing to work was never a major problem in communist countries in fact most experienced productivity spikes.
Since you just assumed we are poor and entitled, maybe i can assume you are lazy rich never did your own loundry, since you seem to project lazyness on everyone else.
How is it a revolution if it's the same as capitalism?
So people on this board unironically believe humans innately want to do repetitive menial tasks. I was under the impression that the fact that they don't goes without saying but I guess I was wrong.
Allow me to try to elucidate this absurdly simple concept to you. The fact that someone is willing to pay someone else to do something implies that thing is unpleasant or difficult. If you're lucky enough to enjoy something that someone else finds unpleasant or difficult then congratulations you won at life. But the vast majority of people, even educated people, do not want to show up to work.
And this is where automation comes in.
You don't work, you don't eat. Simple as that.
Also, how the hell didn't anyone post this youtube.com
Because that just proves my point even further? You think your average drone gets autonomy, or purpose? You think you can ensure every occupation has autonomy and purpose post revolution?
Except that doesn't exist in sufficient measure in the present, yet you are still communist in the present. If automation ever gets to that point then communism will no doubt be outdated as no economic model exists to account for the needs of a post-scarcity economy. Stop spouting this meme as if it has anything to do with communism.
This is literally the first sensible answer in the entire thread. But is this a view held by other communists? I was under the impression universal basic income was implied.
Its literally what Lenin said. Marxist analysis is built almost entirely on the idea of self-interest and how it works in the system a person is provided.
Communism literally means a post-scarcity society, it by itself is not an economic model. Cockshott cybernetic planning could be considered a "model", but communism is not. Socialism is the development towards communism and when people call themselves communists, they generally mean that they support instituting a socialist society with the goal of eventually achieving communism.
The videos point was that people are generally motivated by the actual work they do and not necessarily pay, though it may have some factors initially.