>China

Life expectancy doubled under Mao, since Deng it just grew at the same pace as Europe.

Do we expect chinese to live until 200 years if Mao continues to reign?

China cares what is happening with you gweilo.

I would. He'd have implemented communal ownership of hearts and lungs by now so the old could simply make use of the young's hardware in perpetuity, living forever.

>>>Holla Forums

user…

Sure they do, but what's that going to change? If you think the chinks can roll up to NA and implement your glorious socialist state without resistance you're dead wrong.

Asians are basically ants my dude, you seen those creeps boil dogs?

China isn't remotely Marxist, but it's certainly Leninist and Taylorist.

I don't think anybody argues that the PRC should conquer the US (although I wouldn't be opposed to it). The working class is the revolutionary subject, only the American workers can carry out a revolution in accordance with their own conditions.

Yes, and the American worker doesn't give two squirts of piss about your ideological convictions. They're concerned about getting their work done, supporting their families, and enjoying their lives with minimal intervention from bureaucrats and busybodies. You're not able to offer them anything better than what they have now, according to their own criteria, so they don't care. Your revolution simply won't happen.

Who needs to conquer a land when its rulers fall over themselves to sell it to you?

If you think the contradictions of capitalism are going to spare the US, you are quite idealistic, especially considering the increasing social problems. The election of Trump shows that the American worker is largely unsatisfied, and even the minimal standards, such as properly feeding your family, are becoming more and more of a difficulty in the more precarious milieus.

I'm not opposed to this tactic either. Beating capitalists at their own game.

Sure, that's fair. And what happens when the American people say "piss to our rulers and piss to the Chinese, eat our cocks and enjoy it" and simply say no? Americans are already fed up with their ruling class, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell the form of the revolution will be anything like what you guys want because you can't even explain your systems and theories to anybody in the working class without linking them a 300-page fan fiction and telling them to educate themselves.

Face it, you have a problem communicating with the very people you claim to need for your revolution and if you don't solve it then you'll look to them like a bunch of queers trying to tell them what to do because you have an inflated sense of your own intelligence.

You're right, but he's not going to depose his government and implement socialism, whatever that might mean. He doesn't care about your system, your theory, or anything related to it. You can't even explain it to him in a way that he can understand, so why no Earth would he fight and die for your kooky opinions?

Then he's free to live in a Mad Max dystopia. Communism isn't inevitable, even though this is largerly said as a catchphrase. It's either socialism or barbarism. If an illiterate Russian worker in 1917 could understand what socialism is about, then why not an American in 2018?

Oh, so you'll just implement your utopia at gunpoint like always, gotcha.

Catch is, North Americans are armed and hate you guys in their bones. You're gonna fail and thank God, Dog bless America and blow it out your ass.

GTFO liberal

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An empty stomach is a powerful motivator. I think you will learn that soon.

I don't think the current order isn't enforced at gunpoint, I know it is. That's not a problem. The problem I have is that you queers always seem to think you'll be able to run an economic system without coercion, which is retarded.

You're right, it certainly is. The result though won't be what you hope for. Nobody cares about your theories.

Where the fucking fuck have we ever said that? The reason violence and coercion exist is because of class differences. When you elimante class differences, and stop pitching humans against each other in a market, coercion will disappear and the labor of everybody will be social from the start (communism). Until then, a state is necessary to protect the dictatorship of the proletariat against foreign invasion, even when the capitalist class has been liquidated. Violence and coercion have their causes in social relations and nothing else.

The fuck?

Socialism is the transitional period to communism you idiot. You know, the USSR, Cuba, GDR - they were all socialist states. Of course they had coercion. Communism would be a moneyless, stateless and classless society, there is no reason for systematic coercion to exist anymore. An example of a proto-communist society would be the Incan Empire.

You are saying your system will not require coercion when it's complete.

Are you high?

Communism isn't a system. But yeah, in a stateless, moneyless and classless society with free access to production (no individual producers), systematic coercion would be abolished. Think of the stone age, there was no coercion either. The only coercion that would exist would be in the dealing of individual crimes within families or similar things.

How do you abolish coercion? What if someone decides they're going to get a gang together and coerce people?

And besides all that, you literally ask me "where is anyone saying our economic system won't require coercion" and in the next breath tell me your economic [NON SYSTEM OK] won't require coercion. You're an incoherent faglord.

China is a fucking disgrace, even among capitalist countries they're among the lowest of the low

Why would they do it? There would be no material reasons to do that. If there would be a criminal syndicate like that of course it would be swiftly dealt with by the appropriate institutions and brought to justice. What I'm talking about is systematic coercion - there would be no police force anymore violently keeping away from production. We literally have a society where people are kept away from work by force.

I've tried to explain it to you that socialism, which is what we desire to establish, does indeed include coercion, it's a dictatorship of the proletariat. Communism, which is something different, won't include systematic coercion. I didn't know you lacked the brain capacity to distinguish between those two

This is your ultimate goal and the final incarnation of your system, which I mentioned, and you say it won't require coercion. I don't know how you don't get this yet but you're literally saying what I said you're saying.

That's not even getting into the internal contradictions of your system. You believe in a stateless end-game free of coercion.

I don't know my dude, it sounded a lot that socialism and communism are like the exact same things for you.

Such as it has existed for the majority of human existence on this planet.

The polyp has said a big truth itt: nobody cares about our theory, and we must change that.

Also China is going to be ready for socialism in 20 years, deal with it negros.

Of course
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years

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Tbh I talked with a friend from China recently and he tells me that the biggest concern is the state capitalists and facists hiding inside the CCP that might try to overturn Xi's work someday to reinstate China as the world's next unironic America as opposed to something like the USSR

The struggle China fights now is environmental degradation, the next will be the class divisions inside China, which the CCP better solve if they don't want another civil war

modern China has more in common with Chiang Kai Shek's vision than Mao Tse Tung's

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No he hasn't, nobody expects every worker to read Hegel and Althusser, it's not necessary. Little articles or pamphlets can already raise class consciousness, and everybody can read those.

Without a doubt.

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It's not 4dchessing, what user tank say is right.
The point is that Engels and Marx were full of shit and nobody is willing to accept this. Every their assumption turned out wrong in face of reality. Stop thinking them as prophets, they are not. Take the science, drop the ideology.

I don't know fam, say what you want but mao still built the base of the secondary superpower of the world today

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I hope DPRK nuke Beijing to be honest

Comrades keep it up!

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The Private sector needs to have at least one group of workers that are members of the CPC btw and they need to obey the CPC. So when they get orders from the CPC the company needs to fulfill them

Alright comrades!

Red pill me on Xi Jinping!

How is he building socialism? What has he done to get to that goal? What is his plan?

According to my friend who lives there, he is tightening his grip on the private corporations inside China and restricting the capital outflows outside the country, essentially he is clearing up the mess Jiang zemin left behind.

That's what I am saying, people are discontent but they don't specifically care about socialism to solve their problems. What we need to do is proselytize our basic ideas and positions further, not send them off to read bordiga and google weird-ass 900-page doorstoppers about psychoanalysis and the metaphysics of the toilet in capitalism.

...

lit

Is Chinanon still on Holla Forums? How can the CPC represent people's and industrial interests, when so many members are porkies? What stops the billionaries from enacting self-serving policies through lobbying the central committee?

I think this is a good article, however it's from a Leftcom so you'd have to remove the obligatory shitting on socialist states, but the rest of the article I find perfect for workers to read:
facingrealitycollective.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/what-is-capitalism-how-do-we-break-free-from-it-4/

This is an article for people who work in restaurants:
prole.info/ar.html

This kind of stuff needs to be produced more. Short, light articles that don't lack the sharpness and emotional edge to make people think over their reproduction of their daily life.

They don't have much say in the CPC. Of course, there is always the danger of them staging a coup (where there is money there is power), but billionaires have it harder than in the west.
>In most places, being ranked by a prominent magazine among the wealthiest people in the country constitutes a great honor. Not in China. Such lists, known as bai fu bang in China and published in Forbes and its Chinese equivalent Hurun, are described instead as the sha zhu bang: "kill pigs list."
theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/01/why-do-chinese-billionaires-keep-ending-up-in-prison/272633/

This very different from the West where billionaires are seen as idols and heros.

This, tbh.

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They litteraly have Marxism woven into the fabric of their political system, lol.

Itt: Mutts loosing their shit.

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How does the CPC stops billionaires from putting up their stooges in the committee?

I live in a third world shithole and this is the way out national bourgeoisie do stuff, by extorting or paying off public servants to enact their interests through policy.

I know there are frequent anti-corruption campaigns in the PRC but details on those operations is scarce and the prosecutors might be corrupt themselves.

But the problem is that China has been using the state controlled industry in the international capitalist system. Doesn't state capitalism suffer from the same declining rate of profit that private capitalism does?

It does.
Xi has declared that only Socialism can save China and any marxist, which I suppose include a majority of the CPC, knows he's right about that.

We can only imagine what's the next step of his master plan.

ehhh, which company? some SOEs don't expand outwards globally, for example, semiconductor manufacturer loongson primarily does stuff for state computing, to so much private.

it depends on which sector your talking about, since China has a firm grip on it's enterprises, the theoretical and supposed way they would go about this is use the profitable companies that deal with superficial products (IE: online shopping, entertainment, consumer goods productions) to develop and maintain the more critical sectors that cannot be run for profit (Infrastructure, education , etc..)

not so much private*

companies more closer to the profit motive in this case would be startups like phytium and larger groups like zhaoxin-via / Rockchip

Litteraly all countries face that shit.
That's how. Profit motivations work.

Some more links on China's tightening grip:

nytimes.com/2017/10/23/world/asia/china-xi-business-entrepreneurs.html

jamestown.org/program/chinas-counterintelligence-trinity-foreign-business/

Supposed "opening-up", but is in fact a reigning in by China of private businesses.

nytimes.com/2018/03/19/business/economy/china-xi-jinping-liu-he.html

Can someone give me sources for that??

Oops sorry

At some point those profitable industries would also stop being profitable though. After which China has to either liquidate the bourgeoisie that has emerged in China that has control of the banks and the Shanghai stock exchange.

Who's idea was it to participate in the international market of borrowing and lending instead of sustained socialist growth?

*either liquidate the bourgeoisie… or stop paying debt.

The Billionaires are under a big attack since Xi Jinping was elected.They don't make up the majority of the peoples Congress anymore so thats something

Deng's

war against Jiang's group:

medium.com/@John_Pollock22/chinas-coming-coup-xi-jinping-s-war-with-jiang-zemin-2353d9e49f1f

businessinsider.com/xi-jinping-ended-term-limits-because-of-failed-coup-2018-3

it was necessary to let China catch up, socialism must take an offensive approach, and one offensive move is to build up your productive forces to the most superior in the world.

and on profit, that is certainly true, but by then China should be the main decider of the global economy/productive forces, with that logical choice, they should make the choice to change the worlds course away from mere profit.

surely everything can't be blamed on the eternal Dengist, right?

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He did start a process that broke up China's state services and resulted in the rise of corruption under Jiang

But the technological gap had to be closed, I do not think China can ever stomach the losses suffered under the Korean and Sino-Japanese war, this time they are determined to be a technological match.

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I'am not kidding.

It really was his idea, here dengxiaopingworks.wordpress.com

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Only in an illusory sense. Red flags and hammer and sickles devised by Lenin make for good aesthetics, but the nature of their political system, social ethics and economics has nothing to do with Marxism.

lel what are you on about

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to be fair few people unironically like zuck

this asshat on the other hand

quora.com/What-are-some-bitter-truths-about-Steve-Jobs

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"""Tankies""" always win.

he's not seen as a hero, just an eccentric businessman

chinese state propaganda and rich new york jews whining about a few corrupt businessmen getting clamped down on (which happens everywhere) doesn't count

uhhhhhhhh people have literally compared him to tesla and being better than NASA

he's definitely quite close to a hero, maybe an eccentric one , at least to his fanbois

we can have capitalists idols too west-chan!

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If consider alibaba much more in the hands of the CCP than apple in the hands of the US Govt , sure he's a billionaire but I don't think of him running away to america with money between his legs

I'd *

Bullshit. Most Romans lived in insulae that had no kitchens, so they ate every meal at restaurants, taverns, and street vendors. Hard to take someone's analysis seriously when they fuck up basic facts that form the basis of their argument.

real mothafuckin ☭TANKIE☭s don't support dengist revisionism bitch

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really don't see what commies find attractive about modern china
i mean at least under mao the rich were driven out and there was a sense of egalitarian collectivism
modern china has zero interest in supporting international revolution despite being very wealthy

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You're exactly what he is talking about.

Tankies support China, leftcoms and western maoists don't ;)

This thread turned me from being sceptical of China to fucking China Gang real quick.

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What is Jiang's Group? Who is Jiang, what did he do? And what is his Group?

>Tankies support China, leftcoms and western maoists don't ;)
How many non-western Maoists support China, post-Mao? I'm pretty sure the RIM and Sendero Luminoso, who basically created Maoism (MLM), recognized the revisionism of Deng and the restoration of capitalism in China. You just had to add "western" to it to imply that there are imaginary brown people somewhere who agree with you, which somehow makes your anti-Marxist beliefs more legitimate, huh?

The CCP holds that cultural revolution, which is pretty fucking important to Maoism, is an ultra-left deviation. The CCP is not Maoist and doesn't claim to be.

Have fun waiting for the bourgeoisie to implement socialism out of the kindness of their hearts, against their own rational self-interests. I'll believe it when I see it.

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the CCP is what the Kuomintang have always wanted to be but couldn't due to incompetence. This is Sun Yat Sen's China, the Maoist dream is dead.

Nah ,odern China isn't Georgist. Also SYS was a democrat.

Mainland China also has more sympathy for Chiang Kai Shek than Taiwan does.

C O P I N G

I fear the Chinese as much as I fear the Americans.

And Chaing was a traitor to SYST. Reminder his wife was a maoists (and also sister in law to Chaing).

50c shill army is out full force today.

Proof?

Yeah, where do these anti-cpc shills come from?
I'm betting on the eternal pajeet.

On SYS' wifeu being maoist? user Mao made her the first president of China.

Hasn't Xi engaged the Chinese state in giving guns to the Naxalbari though?

This is done as part of negotiations with Trump. It largely won't work unless they explicitly accept tariffs on certain products or accept quotas. Expect Trump to call their bluff, Beijing to be caught red handed doing socialism, and trade talks failing resulting in higher tariffs right as NAFTA 2 is finalized and the midterms happen.

100% pure bullshit.

actually a better term is "market manipulation", exactly what capitalists do but because China is doing it via their government this is considered unacceptable.

I just wish China would do more to help countries resisting imperialism. They should also actively try to undermine the global financial system. They could easily crash the entire thing if, for example, they asked the US to pay its debts.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_clique

No, because if they asked the US to pay debts only one of two things would happen:

(a) the US would recognize Taiwan as the real China again, and pay them instead. Taiwan would happily accept it because they'd suddenly get money for free.

or

(b) the US pays up 100%, using new debt issued to the US Social Security Administration and US-based banks. China gets a brief influx of money, but is then slapped with sanctions which ruins their economy. Bonus: the GOP pass a balanced budget amendment and also gut social security to cut costs

The global economy wouldn't crash. China's would though, and younger Americans would find themselves without much of the social security that was guaranteed to their parents.

Not even Taiwan recognizes Taiwan as the real China

I wouldn't say that's the case, they only entertain China as of recently because they've had money. But this can change, especially if the US government drops a shitload of money on their lap. But I also believe option (b) to be the more likely of the two.

Gee, I wonder why China doesn't stop the imperialism of its best WTO buddy, who then dumps part of the profits it plunders from other countries, right into China through shady trade deals and the finance industry.

It's amazing some of you still believe China isn't on America's team because of a few propaganda puff pieces in China Daily meant to placate the masses and a few neocons in the USA trying to increase military spending as high as possible.

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I hope this happens just for the sheer troll value.

China is Bukharinite.

None of the younger generations expect to see their Social Security. That's a long forgotten laughable joke by this point.

eh I wouldn't say that. Most people have given up pensions yes (a part of social security, as a concept), but not the SSA itself. Whether or not Trump pulls the trigger on this or Pence does when he's President is anyone's guess.

...

stalinsmoustache.org/2018/03/28/kim-jong-un-and-xi-jinping-together-in-beijing/

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I'm pretty sure millennials don't even know what SSA is or cares. The ones who have, don't need, and the ones who don't have, want to die long before 64.

Kill yourself.

So what are the working conditions like in China?
I've heard they are really bad with workers having 18 hour shifts. Is that true? And what is Xi doing about Workers rights

That's not only insane. but also a total waste of human resources.

Working conditions are probably worse than in the West in the Special Economic Zones, but quite okay everywhere else. Remember the systems in Hong Kong and Macau weren't implemented by Bejing, but by London and Lisbon.

Ah yea, socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff the government does, the more socialistic it is.

CCP are socialist in the sense that Ba'athists are socialists, national development is the first concern, nit expropriation

I don't think you are familiar with the terminology. Ismail has recently made a good post on /marx/:

It is perfectly consistent with Marxism. What matters is what the dominant mode of production is. The Chinese state clearly holds the "commanding heights" of the economy, and the state is able to dictate to capitalist firms rather than vice-versa. See: workers.org/2013/06/13/marxism-and-the-social-character-of-china/