Clocks are Bourgeois

Cooper Wright
Cooper Wright

Mumford makes the claim that, “The clock, not the steam-engine, is the key-machine of the modern industrial age. For every phase of its development the clock is both the outstanding fact and the typical symbol of the machine: even today no there machine is so ubiquitous”. Mumford makes the strong argument that there is no other machine that is as widespread and necessary as the clock. For without the clock my entire day truly would take on a different shape. He goes on to say, “The clock, moreover, is a piece of power-machinery whose ‘product’ is seconds and minutes: by its essential nature it dissociated time from human events and helped create the belief in an independent world of mathematically measurable sequences: the special world of science”

Thompson argued that observance of clock-time is a consequence of the European industrial revolution, and that neither industrial capitalism nor the creation of the modern state would have been possible without the imposition of synchronic forms of time and work discipline. The new clock time imposed by government and capitalist interests replaced earlier, collective perceptions of time that Thompson believed flowed from the collective wisdom of human societies.

Who here /abolishtime/ gang?

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All urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute#History

Justin Edwards
Justin Edwards

We should abolish units of measurements as well, all we need is ‘just right’

Camden Bailey
Camden Bailey

Peasant A: Did you work in the fields today comrade?
Peasant B: Yeah, for a bit
Peasant A: Me to lmao
*everyone starves*

Camden Clark
Camden Clark

The whole application of the “alarm clock” is pretty fucking Bourgeois to the core. These devices are built solely to forcefully wake you from REM sleep in order to haul your ass to work for your boss. This might sound crazy but I’m fairly certain there is a correlation between this shit, and mental illness/suicide. So go ahead, and really analyze the sinister function these things serve.

Parker Powell
Parker Powell

Do you assume peasants just starved to death before the hegemony of clock time? For most of human history peasants relied on concrete time (tiredness, sun position, seasonal cycles, etc) in their life.

Andrew Nelson
Andrew Nelson

There’s plenty of evidence that peasants underwent frequent famine and malnutrition, doofus

Liam Young
Liam Young

I agree, honestly. Fuck time. Time is just a tool for scheduling work, and ironically only serves a tertiary function of encapsulating all of reality. I think saying that the clock is the main source is a little rough, but it definitely is a large part.
Anyways, we can't abolish time. Time is a necessary part of society, but it is interesting to think that time could be felt/used differently in the future.
create the belief in an independent world of mathematically measurable sequences: the special world of science”
If this is implying science don't real, that's retarded.

Jaxon Peterson
Jaxon Peterson

Double posting but THIS

Adam Roberts
Adam Roberts

There’s plenty of evidence that peasants underwent frequent famine and malnutrition, doofus
Which weren't caused by their reliance on concrete time but by droughts, diseases, taxation and war.

Jaxon Williams
Jaxon Williams

Leftypol: Stalin saved a gorillion peasants by modernizing agriculture!
Also Leftypol: FUG CLOGS LMAO

Blake Cruz
Blake Cruz

you: I don't understand the argument
also you: but I'll shitpost anyway

Asher Perry
Asher Perry

First Anti-Glasses Gang.

Who will have the honor of becoming Anti-Clock Gang in the future?

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Luis Jackson
Luis Jackson

but by droughts, diseases, taxation and war.
But the root cause of this was the inefficiency of their agriculture and I have to say that an inability to properly manage time isn't a small part of inefficiency–it isn't simply a technology question.

Btw it wasn't just "disaster" that caused the problems that I mention but also chronic poverty. You ever wonder why there were so many holidays in medieval times and why they worked fewer hours per day in comparison to modern times? If you think it all has to do with Christian spooks and closeness to the land then you're wrong.

They didn't put in long days because they weren't physically able. Robert C. Allen pointed out in his book on the British Industrial Revolution that in the 17th-18th centuries approximately 40% of the French population was too malnourished to do more than 3 hrs of light work a day. This also corresponds to the evidence we have concerning human height and health from the period.

But then if we look across the channel at England during the same time period we see that only 20% of the population is so malnourished they can't do more than 3 hours of work. Huh. Isn't it also fascinating that the obsession with work and long-working hours begins in Britain where a far larger portion of the population is physically able to sustain long-working hours at a fairly vigorous pace? This also matches with the fact that Britons, Americans, and Australians were some of the tallest people on earth during the 19th century.

So, what makes more sense, the crippling chronic poverty of the majority of the population only arose with the creation of mechanized time or that this was endemic to the feudal mode of production given that peasants in more primitive countries in Europe and around the world were worse off materially than proles in England?

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Dominic Reyes
Dominic Reyes

So, what makes more sense, the crippling chronic poverty of the majority of the population only arose with the creation of mechanized time or that this was endemic to the feudal mode of production given that peasants in more primitive countries in Europe and around the world were worse off materially than proles in England?
I don't think that's what Mumford or Thompson argued — I'm fairly sure they were aware pre-industrial workers were poor too. They didn't romanticize pre-capitalist societies, they wrote a genealogy of how clock-time came to be and how it was intertwined with bourgeois disciplining of European societies. I mean, claiming technology is not neutral is not the same as being a technophobe.

Evan Mitchell
Evan Mitchell

We must abolish the human race

Kayden Sullivan
Kayden Sullivan

yes it wasn't until clocks that people were able to manage time you've figured it out gg

Aiden Barnes
Aiden Barnes

sundials
waterclocks
hourglasses
calendars
Was Mumford a brainlet?

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Jacob Scott
Jacob Scott

Those didn't operate on what we call clock-time (standardized, abstract time). A sundial — which interestingly enough is reliant on the position of the sun, that is concrete time — may inform peasants that it is past midday, but it doesn't and can't express that as being say 01:30PM. Waterclocks and hourglasses were used to estimate time that passed (like a countdown) and calendars were usually based on seasonal cycles, so they did not involve clock-time. At least that is my understanding.

Matthew Nelson
Matthew Nelson

Standarized 24 hour divisions and 60 minute hours etc. were derived from those by the Mesopotamians, were they not?

Luke Watson
Luke Watson

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute#History
prior to mechanical clocks, I think the length of hours varied with the seasons

Dominic Robinson
Dominic Robinson

The first mechanical clocks came in the early 1200s when the verge escapement was invented by Benedictine monks as a means to synchronize time between monasteries. Thus, it ties heavily into Judeo-Christian philosophy. One God for all, one time system for all. A full hundred years before the breakdown of feudalism, and you see peasant accounts of reckoning the time with phrases like "o'clock" indicating how rapidly the mechanical clock and the town clock had diffused into these people's lives.

You may argue well that the invention of clock-time served the interest of the early burghers and merchant classes the most, and this was one of the factors that led to their rise over the 14th and 15th centuries and subsequent development of capitalism. But I don't think the observance of clock-time began with capitalism unto itself. It certainly well may have fed it, but there's clear evidence of how important clock-time was to medieval lives in documented record, and I don't believe it was a forced social imposition rather than something people willingly adopted for any number of reasons, be they astronomy or business. Many monastic inventions were later repurposed for utilitarian means. Nothing new under the sun.

Asher Fisher
Asher Fisher

Mumford makes the claim that, “The clock, not the steam-engine, is the key-machine of the modern industrial age…
Time standardized for big regions came about with the installation of rail networks. (I'm not making a counter hypothesis, I'm stating a fact.)

Andrew Lopez
Andrew Lopez

There's a good JG Ballard story about this: "Chronopolis." It's one of the few SF tales where you find yourself rooting for the totalitarian government.

Carson Murphy
Carson Murphy

The victory of the bourgeoisie is the victory of profoundly historical time, because this is the time of economic production which transforms society, continuously and from top to bottom. So long as agrarian production remains the central activity, the cyclical time which remains at the base of society nourishes the coalesced forces of tradition which fetter all movement. But the irreversible time of the bourgeois economy eradicates these vestiges on every corner of the globe. History, which until then had seemed to be only the movement of individuals of the ruling class, and thus was written as the history of events, is now understood as the general movement, and in this relentless movement individuals are sacrificed. This history which discovers its foundation in political economy now knows of the existence of what had been its unconscious, but this still cannot be brought to light and remains unconscious. This blind prehistory, a new fatality dominated by no one, is all that the commodity economy democratized

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Nicholas Ortiz
Nicholas Ortiz

luddites wanting to go back to the dark ages
Astounding shitpost

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Cooper Richardson
Cooper Richardson

time is technology

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Evan Mitchell
Evan Mitchell

C-clocks arnt technology

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Connor Perez
Connor Perez

You know who else tried to control the measurements of time? The French Revolutionaries. You see where that got them.

Thomas Torres
Thomas Torres

Ah, the monastery definitely played a huge role in the development of clock-time, and IIRC Mumford acknowledge this. I don't think the clock or clock-time was born in the industrial revolution either, rather it was its crowning moment.

David Nguyen
David Nguyen

Nobody here supports "going back" to a time when there were no clocks, rather we want to analyze how clock-time came to be and what built-in limitations of that arrangement could be from a socially emancipatory point of view — because it is undeniable it came to be as a form of control.

Mason Lopez
Mason Lopez

The first phase of technically civilized life (AD 1000 to 1800) begins with the clock, to Mumford the most important basis for the development of capitalism because time thereby becomes fungible (thus transferable). The clock is the most important prototype for all other machines. He contrasts the development and use of glass, wood, wind and water with the inhumanly horrific work that goes into mining and smelting metal. The use of all of these materials, and the development of science during the eotechnic phase, is based on the abstraction from life of the elements that could be measured. He approves those people, cities and cultures who strove for a harmonious balance between the senses and the freedom from labor provided by science.

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