Soldier Apologia (?)

Nathaniel Garcia
Nathaniel Garcia

It started as a massive shitpost on /leftpol/ but thinking about it, I'm not that wrong.
With the premise that I don't want to justify nazi, why we buy in the mainstream narrative of "IT HAPPEND BECASE EBIL KRAUTS"?

And why, if we have to buy in this narrative, we do not applied to americans too?

I feel like a massive faggot cross posting this way, but it's actually an interesting question.
Why we and the rad left in general would not accept Wehrmacht, Nazi or Ex reich citizens, even if converted, in their organizations and rankings but no one say shit about americans?
This is valid for imperial Japan too, the narrative of "every citizen and soldier is guilty" would justify the dropping of two nukes on civilians. Let that sink

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Other urls found in this thread:

theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
youtube.com/watch?v=Aw-pNjHFtLM
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/oct/08.htm
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People's_Army.
marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1942/02/23.htm
youtube.com/watch?v=LFFuxKRLjfA

Alexander Phillips
Alexander Phillips

Why we and the rad left in general would not accept Wehrmacht, Nazi or Ex reich citizens, even if converted, in their organizations and rankings but no one say shit about americans?

But most rad leftists did, look at postwar Germany. The Soviets had no problem rearming former nazis since all the actual soldiers were sent to Siberia. West Germany's original communist party was banned explicitly because it was run by former NASDP officers and promised to open the door to a Soviet invasion. Americans were generally told to fuck off and this is what led to the Berlin Airlift, the building of the Iron Curtain and the Cold War.

This is valid for imperial Japan too, the narrative of "every citizen and soldier is guilty" would justify the dropping of two nukes on civilians. Let that sink

That only happened because Japan was still at war with America, no different than the bombing of Dresden. Once surrendered, neither communists nor capitalists saw any point in mass genocide because such a thing is very expensive and has no real gain unless there is a huge population surplus in the conqueror's country.

Jaxon Parker
Jaxon Parker

The soldiers are least guilty of all the members of society, because they are sent there by force, and would be harshly pusnished for any disobedience, at the same time having to take tremendous risk to life and health, including mental health.

If any sort of atrocity or war is concerned, politicians are most guilty, generals are second, common citizens are third, and soldiers the least.

Henry Sanchez
Henry Sanchez

Because Bush did the Holocaust:
theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

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Elijah Reyes
Elijah Reyes

m-muh nazis dindu nuffin
lol

youtube.com/watch?v=Aw-pNjHFtLM

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Dylan Clark
Dylan Clark

not putting capitalists on the same level as the politicians

Ryan Nelson
Ryan Nelson

Yeah who are we to judge , I mean all those rapings , lootings and joykills sure had a valid justifiable reason behind them . Right ?

common citizens are third and soldiers the least

Explain yourself

Isaiah Adams
Isaiah Adams

Muhammad Ali is the only hero

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Ryder Nelson
Ryder Nelson

I don't get op so I have to shitpost
Bet you are american

Carter Jackson
Carter Jackson

West Germany's original communist party was banned explicitly because it was run by former NASDP officers and promised to open the door to a Soviet invasion.

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Ethan Edwards
Ethan Edwards

The Wehrmacht represented the most reactionary, imperialist elements of Prussian mlitarism. They deserved worse.

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Chase Carter
Chase Carter

/Leftpol/ is such a shit place, it's full of idiotic leftcoms,red liberals and Fascists. Iv'e seen more nazbol Asserist posts on leftpol then months of leftypol

As much as this board gets shitted on for moderation it's still far superior. Polite sage

Oliver Clark
Oliver Clark

And why does the american army deserve a pass when they did worse?

Connor Gomez
Connor Gomez

Uh they don't deserve a pass

Dylan Walker
Dylan Walker

Based. I'm down with this

Grayson Morales
Grayson Morales

Not basing your arguments on necessity
Instead baseing them on who deserves what and petty moralism
Implying we shouldn't use every resource open to us in order to secure victory
Implying the established capitalist hierarchy will care what resources they have to use and what personal principle they have to break because they have everything to lose.
Letting yourself and your comrades be the guys who were executed inside a mass grave because you stuck by moral "principle" and said no to aid and those with relevant skills.
aaaaaaghhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I SWEAR IF I HAVE TO HEAR ONE MORE MORAL ARGUMENT IN REGARD TO WHAT IS NECESSARY
READ LENIN
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/oct/08.htm

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Ian Bell
Ian Bell

I made no moral argument.
I just asking why with americans is necessity and nazis is moral

Thomas Jenkins
Thomas Jenkins

Is that…Lain?

Sebastian Walker
Sebastian Walker

The Soviets did base there actions on necessity, hell they took Wehrmacht into the NPA en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People's_Army. Remember also that the Nazi's kept good bookkeeping, so the case of finding blame and arresting individuals who committed actions and we're in ranking positions was quite simple.

Understand we're also talking about a full blown international war here, as opposed to gearing up for a national revolution which is what people are generally talking about when discussing converting American soilders.

Owen Phillips
Owen Phillips

soilders
Now you can ban me

Bentley Clark
Bentley Clark

The foreign Press sometimes carries such twaddle as that the Red Army pursues the aim of exterminating the German people and destroying the German state. This, of course, is a stupid lie, and a senseless slander against the Red Army. The Red Army has not and cannot have such idiotic aims. The Red Army’s aim is to drive the German occupants from our country and liberate Soviet soil from the German-fascist invaders. It is very likely that the war for the liberation of Soviet soil will lead to the exile or destruction of Hitler’s clique. We would welcome such an outcome. But it would be ludicrous to identify Hitler’s clique with the German people, with the German state. The experience of history indicates that Hitlers come and go, but the German people and the German state remain.

The strength of the Red Army lies, finally, in the fact that it does not and cannot feel racial hatred for other peoples, including the German people; that it has been trained in the spirit of equality of all peoples and races, in the spirit of respect for the rights of other peoples. The Germans’ racial theory and the practice of racial hatred have caused all freedom-loving peoples to become enemies of fascist Germany. The theory of race equality in the U.S.S.R. and practice of respect for the rights of other peoples have caused all freedom-loving peoples to become the friends of the Soviet Union.

Herein lies the strength of the Red Army.

And herein lies the weakness of the German-fascist army.

The foreign Press sometimes carries such twaddle as that the Soviet people hate the Germans just as Germans, that the Red Army exterminates German soldiers just as Germans out of hatred for everything German and that therefore the Red Army does not take German soldiers prisoner. That, of course is a similar stupid lie and senseless slander against the Red Army. The Red Army is devoid of all sentiments of racial hatred. It is devoid of such degrading sentiments because it has been trained in the spirit of racial equality and respect for the rights of other peoples. It should not be forgotten either that in our country any manifestation of racial hatred is punished by law.

Of course, the Red Army has to destroy the German-fascist occupationists inasmuch as they wish to enslave our Motherland; or when, on being surrounded by our troops, they refuse to lay down their arms and surrender. The Red Army annihilates them, not because of their German origin, but because they want to enslave our Motherland. The Red Army, like the army of any other people, has the right and is duty-bound to annihilate the enslavers of its Motherland, irrespective of their national origin. Not long ago the German garrisons in the towns of Kalinin, Klin, Sukhinichi, Andreapol and Toropets were surrounded by our troops, who offered them surrender and, in this case, promised to spare their lives. The German garrisons refused to lay down their arms and surrender. It is obvious that they had to be driven out by force and that not a few Germans were killed. War is war. The Red Army takes German soldiers and officers prisoner if they surrender, and spares their lives. The Red Army annihilates German soldiers and officers if they refuse to lay down their arms, and, arms in hand, attempt to enslave our Motherland. Remember the words of the great Russian writer, Maxim Gorky: “If the enemy does not surrender he must be annihilated.”
marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1942/02/23.htm

Brandon Rivera
Brandon Rivera

But mate. My argument was really that we shouldn't """""discriminate""""" nazis for moralism. We are saying the same thing here. Look at the pic in OP and look at the answer the guy got when he said that foot soldiers are not the same thing as politicians or porky.
I was just asking why people are willing to make compromise in their heads when it comes to americans but none for japanese and nazis. I mean north korea still get shitted on for accepting a few converts in their ranking
this thread was against petty bourgeoisie concerns of anarco liberals and sometimes leftcoms who are ready to scream "REVOLUTION BETRAYED" and "CLASSCOLLABORATION" everytime Realpolitiks is in action or when it comes time to talk about the ussr

Jaxon Allen
Jaxon Allen

left/pol/acks are just /pol/acks that give the same ideology a spin and positive connotation

"yes, there is all that racial struggle, but it's actually the eternal german that is evil
yes, there is a jewish-bolshevik plot, and it's good, zionism is one form of communism and israel is socialism in praxis

the US are under the jewish influence, obviously they carry out the will of the judeo-bolshevik conspirators!"

this is the mind of the left/pol/ack and antigerman

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Robert Baker
Robert Baker

Are antigerman and /leftpol/ connected?
Holy shit, I didn't agree with BO but if this is the scum we exiled and purged from the board I'm kind of starting to rethink my position…Kind like I did with another guy…Ummm

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Brayden Peterson
Brayden Peterson

take all the antigerman propaganda on israel and draw the parallels to the one they use on over a dozen US military bases in Syria together with their shared attacks against antiimperialism
it took me a while too but once the thought occures it's blatantly obvious who they are

youtube.com/watch?v=LFFuxKRLjfA

Ayden Reyes
Ayden Reyes

Tbh, while there were some bans that were undeserved in regards to disscussion on the status of socialism and socialist support in certain countries, there were also some which were utterly and completely deserved. From what I know anti-germans don't make up any particularly noticable percentage of users on leftpol, but I think what that user is saying is that a lot of anons use similar arguments which are just as bad.

Robert Anderson
Robert Anderson

they might be not aware of the source ideology but they are very much high on it, there is no doubt for me as to who supplied them

Lincoln Reyes
Lincoln Reyes

i may also note that "collective guilt" is yet again US ideology that was forced on germany in the western parts.
and what for? to cover up the class divide and the cause of the war that lies within it. this is what the antigerman does, this is what left/pol/ does.

if the leadership of the nazis, the SS and the capitalist sponors of the nazi party do not carry special responsibility
what does this imply?
it implies that the nazis did not terrorize the population into submission
it implies that the nazis won "fair elections"
not only that those could exist under capitalism, but that after the communists gained votes while the nazis lost, that there was no terror at the voting both on top
in short it claims that there was no class conflict in nazi germany, it glosses over it. it becomes a racial matter.

i like OPs caps, it shows the essence of the /left/polacks ideology being based on racial hatred and american sponsored propaganda.

Hudson Edwards
Hudson Edwards

Tbh, while there were some bans that were undeserved in regards to disscussion on the status of socialism and socialist support in certain countries, there were also some which were utterly and completely deserved.
Agree

Brandon Morgan
Brandon Morgan

i-it's not their fault they are Nazis, they have to be Nazis to eat
I seriously don't care. They are guilty of atrocities. FUCK em, they deserve worse. If you would would rather be a Nazi soldier than dead, it's a shame that you will now end up being both. There are some exceptions to this, but a legitimate Nazi has no place in society other than the far edges. Anyways, this will buttblast 4-d chess magicians, yet they all wonder where revisionism comes from! L O L
That isn't what the article said whatsoever. This article gives absolutely no direction for your amazing """""""necessity""""""", it is literally only about anti-militarist propoganda and how it effectively humanizes soldiers in favor of their communities. It makes them less effective for the ruling classes.

Bentley Morales
Bentley Morales

I seriously don't care. They are guilty of atrocities. FUCK em, they deserve worse. If you would would rather be a Nazi soldier than dead, it's a shame that you will now end up being both. There are some exceptions to this, but a legitimate Nazi has no place in society other than the far edges. Anyways, this will buttblast 4-d chess magicians, yet they all wonder where revisionism comes from! L O L
Mine isn't nazi apologism, explain me now why should I treat americans any different or not even worse seen how they not only were the cause behind it but after the war they did far worse than nazis.

Mason Price
Mason Price

The article is Lenin talking about propagandizing to military members, its usefulness, and how it is needed. Lenin was always about being disciplined and doing what was necessary to secure victory over the bourgeoisie regardless of personal distaste. In regards to your first statement, refer to .

Aiden Reed
Aiden Reed

explain me now why should I treat americans any different or not even worse seen how they not only were the cause behind it but after the war they did far worse than nazis.
Well for one, you can't punish someone (with any sort of justice anyways) for a crime they haven't done. Most Americans today aren't responsible for American crimes directly after World War 2, just like modern day Nazis aren't responsible for crimes during World War 2.
However, that is a war that ended 73 years ago. Nowadays, I would say almost all American soldiers, politicians, and businessman (of a certain size) are guilty of varying degrees.

Hudson Johnson
Hudson Johnson

doing what was necessary to secure victory over the bourgeoisie regardless of personal distaste
Look at this dude! You can LITERALLY read Lenin moralizing in the post you replied to me with.
The strength of the Red Army lies, finally, in the fact that it does not and cannot feel racial hatred for other peoples, including the German people; that it has been trained in the spirit of equality of all peoples and races, in the spirit of respect for the rights of other peoples. The Germans’ racial theory and the practice of racial hatred have caused all freedom-loving peoples to become enemies of fascist Germany. The theory of race equality in the U.S.S.R. and practice of respect for the rights of other peoples have caused all freedom-loving peoples to become the friends of the Soviet Union.
Lenin is LITERALLY saying that the Red Army "can not feel racial hatred for other peoples" and that the USSR has the "practice of respect for the rights of other people". For someone is willing to do "anything necessary", he sure does talk a lot about respect for natural rights and how the Red Army can't be racist. Just recognize that Lenin wasn't some 4-d chess "rationalist" faggot so we can be done with this. I mean you can literally read him talking about how all the freedom loving people are going to join hands against racism and defeat the Nazis. This is especially funny when your earlier posting said Communists should abandon moral principles, and then posted Lenin talking about the importance of principles in regards to racism and natural rights.
this article is talking about propogandizing to military members
That's heavily reductive, and the point you draw from it is separated from reality. The point I'm referring to, of course, is your hard-on for Cyborg-Lenin, noted annihilator of emotion and moral fortitude.
It's a pretty sexy fantasy, I won't lie
Anyways, I have two main quotes from your Lenin post that I will prove you don't understand what you read from, or at the very least are being heavily reductive about.
I have already disproven the part about "Lenin would do whatever was necessary", so I will jump right in to what you believe Lenin was speaking of here.
It is much harder to make an approach to the lone, ignorant and cowed soldier who is isolated from his fellow-men and whose head has been stuffed with the wildest views on every possible subject, than to draft-age young men living with their families and friends and closely bound up with them by common interest. Everywhere anti-militarist propaganda among young workers has yielded excellent results. That is of tremendous importance. The worker who goes into the army a class-conscious Social-Democrat is a poor support for the powers that be
In this, Lenin talks about how a soilder is "lone, ignorant and cowed… isolated from his fellow-men and whose head has been stuffed with the wildest views" in comparison to "draft-age young men". Notice these are draft age young men, not soldiers. So far, Lenin has established a soldier as hard to approach, ignorant, and cowed, amongst other negative qualities.
He then goes on to talk about how "anti-militarist propoganda among young workers has yielded excellent results". Notice he is speaking of young workers, not soldiers. This is clearly not in respect to soldiers; he is referring to the "draft-age young men".
Finally, he finishes saying that a class-concious Social Democrat going INTO the Army is a poor support for the powers that be. He isn't referring to all soldiers, or even most soldiers here. He is specifically referring to the "draft-age young men".
For that purpose, they try to establish close ties with young soldiers. This is done in the following way. Before the young worker has joined the army, 
Here Lenin is again, referring to the importance of radicalizing people before they are soldiers.
Now, to sum up the rest of the article, Lenin talks about the success of these efforts and the anti-militarist propoganda passed out to soldiers.
This ENTIRE article is simply about the importance of radicalizing people before they become soldiers and the importance of anti-militaristic propoganda in radicalizing current soldiers.
NOWHERE does Lenin argue for any 4-chess, he doesn't argue against morals, he doesn't say that we should accept all soldiers, he doesn't say we should try any sort of magical, dialectical wizardy where we attempt to coopt reactionaries for progessive aims. Seriously, fuck off with the 4-d chess "fug morals" meme.

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Elijah Watson
Elijah Watson

And why does the american army deserve a pass when they did worse?
The American Army and Whenchmart didn’t do much worse than what the Russian Army did in WW2. Yet the Bolsheviks still organized them and gave them amity because not doing so would be fucking retarted.

Dominic Collins
Dominic Collins

*Russian Army did in WW1

Zachary Thompson
Zachary Thompson

this x1000. they took a blood oath to hitler and followed literal genocidal orders issued at battle-group level. after the war british intelligence listened in on german POWs joking about raping women they came across during barbarossa, ”dragging them in [the armored vehicle]”.

germans were completely aware and complicit in the holocaust also. they saw their friends and neighbors of years and years taken away never to be seen again. and they did nothing, the cowards.

the entirity of the wehrmacht should have been liquidated. marshal zhukov, bomber harris, do it again!

Eli Cook
Eli Cook

No, stacheposter is just a retard.

Easton Butler
Easton Butler

You’re high on ideology if you think R*java and Israel are remotely comparable.

Isaac Murphy
Isaac Murphy

Look at this dude! You can LITERALLY read Lenin moralizing in the post you replied to me with.
Proceeds to re-post the Stalin post
I'm honestly more concerned why you would think Lenin, a man who died before WW2, would be talking about Germans.
Also, in regard to your selective reading of the actual Lenin writing, you seem to have completely skipped this part.
Before the young worker has joined the army, he is a member of a league and pays membership dues. When he becomes a soldier, the league continues to maintain constant contacts with him, regularly sending him small cash aids (“soldier’s sous” as they call them in France), which, however small, are of substantial importance to the soldier. For his part, he undertakes to provide the league with regular information about everything that goes On in his barracks and to write about his impressions. Thus, even after he joins the army, the soldier dots not break off his ties with the organisation of which he was a member.
An effort is always made to drive the soldier as far away from home as possible for his service. This is done with the intention of preventing the soldier from being tied with the local population by any interest, and to make him feel alien to it. It is theft easier to make him carry out orders: to shoot at a crowd. Young workers’ leagues try to bridge this alienation between the soldier and the local population. Youth leagues are connected with each other. When he arrives in a new town, the soldiers a former member of a youth league at home, is met by the local league as a welcome visitor, and he is at once brought into the circle of local interests and helped in every possible way. He ceases to be a new-coiner and a stranger. He is also aware that if any misfortune befalls him he will receive help and support. This awareness adds to his courage, he gains assurance in his behaviour in the barracks, and is bolder in standing up for his rights and his human dignity.
Lenin is literally advocating something beyond I was even saying. He is saying to build connections with a soldier before he leaves for the army, then send him packages while he is deployed so he does not become alienated from his community at home because if he does (as is the intention of his superiors) it will make it easier for him to accept orders to shoot at dissidents and crowds of protestors when he comes home as he no longer feels any connection to them, and then, to go even farther and seal the deal, the soldier is to be greeted at any new town he arrives in by the local Young Workers league as to ensure his continued involvement with the league and to build a line of communication through him to other soldiers in his barrack. This is all done to forward the necessary task of building up the revolutionary masses and to ensure it's success in the event of revolution. Seriously, read the whole thing before you go stating it means something it doesn't.

Anthony Perry
Anthony Perry

Meant for