So with the Turks completely fucking over the Kurds and taking Afrin… are we finally going to admit that the strength...

You can have the best light infantry in the world and still get blown to shit by an enemy with combined arms.

you do realize that the kurds are still planning to fight in Afrin, right? It's called guerrilla warfare

the Syrian government has done nothing but screw over the kurds for decades, it makes sense that they would be wary of working with them until now.

makes you wonder why the over a dozen US military bases in Syria had no combined arms
is it because they're entirely dependent on daddy trump using them as a proxy only the extend useful to US interests?
could that be?
looking forward to the raging anarkiddies worming themself out of this once more

ok.

Have you ever heard of defeat in detail?

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reddit.com/r/islam/comments/85a1jn/the_spectator_index_on_twitterbreaking_erdogan/

kek

Really though, I'm glad those imperialist collaborators are getting killed, along with all the anarkiddie cucks that went to fight with them. Helps clear the way for actual socialists to have influence. Plus, it's just hilarious seeing them get their comeuppance. Go Erdogan, go!

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I don't care if this is poe's law because i've seen people do this unironically in the past.

See now how the anarkiddie has no argument, he just spouts memes. This reflects his theory.

They might ultimately be NATO aligned, but their actions in carving their way through that US proxy of k*rdistan is decidedly anti-imperialist and aiding the Syrian government, thus by proxy aiding socialism. It's not rocket science or anything.

Also
First off, Kurds are just inbred snowflake Iranians. Secondly, even if they were a "minority", why should I care? It's this type of intersectional r/socialism bullshit that drives people away from the left.

There was no argument to respond to.

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Why do so many on Holla Forums subscribe to a black and white, moralistic worldview?

It's fascistic tbh.

Hey /leftpol/ nice of you drop in and false flag as a ☭TANKIE☭.

If it makes you feel better, sure

Why does this shit enrage me more than it should? FFS.

Perhaps you are mistaken. I dont support Turkey unconditionally, they are NATO after all. But for the purpose of cleaning the filth, they are useful.

there is also some slight al queda apologetics down in the thread

I mean, who the FUCK calls the Y.P.G. a "Marxist death cult?"

Are you asking why the over a dozen US military bases in Syria didn't have an air force or armor? Or why the US didn't supply them with their own planes and tanks and then train the over a dozen US military bases in Syria how to fly or operate them? Or why the US isn't continuing to supply the over a dozen US military bases in Syria with air support when they're fighting a NATO ally?

Let bigones be bigones. Just because Syria was mean to the Kurds doesn't mean you should ally with the biggest imperialist power that has a history of crushing socialist movements. Being wary of working with the Syrian government, whose interest aligns with your own, but not being wary of working with the fucking US? What kind of delusion is that?

Should they have committed communal suicide by declining US air support when Kobane was surrounded by ISIS?

Turk shills I assume.

Except that Erdogan wants Assad gone as well to the point where he was secretly funding ISIS to do so. And saying that Turkey anti-imperialist and aiding socialism by proxy is laughable considering that not only is Turkey a sponsor of western imperialism but actual socialists in Turkey (the same group of socialists who are fighting in Afrin right now fyi) have been fighting their government for independence for decades.

Was Assad doing socialism when he set up the CIA's Syrian black sites?

Where does the meme I posted supports turkey ?
Fuck no, I've been pro assad since this war started, I still am. Honestly it was time that the US failed to dethrone someone, at least Syria won't be turned in another Libya or Iraq

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>>>/leftpol/

you didn't answer user's question, are CIA sponsored black sites a good example of actually existing socialism or not?

(checked)

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Not him, but no one ever argued that assad was a socialist.
People don't support him because we like the guy, but because his government and country is victim of imperialism.
Crypto sionistas backed by the us can't be socialist

Sure about that bud?

plenty of people on this board think that Assad is a socialist
The kurds are currently victims of Turkish imperialism as well and there's people itt celebrating that fact
America has already demonstrated that they don't actually give a crap about the kurds and that they're willing to throw them under the bus to appease the eternal t*rkroach

That was 100% false flag, no one is that retarded.

I don't agree with that. The meme I posted was mostly making fun on anarchist fails in general, that said I'm kind of glad to see a silent alliance between kurd and the syrian government.
There are videos of the over a dozen US military bases in Syria giving cities to the syrian army. Obviously Erdogan is a menance and must be crushed, that said I will curious on what they will do with all the american bases already present on the territory

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Did you know that Hafez Al Assad participated on the American side in Desert Storm? Is this actually existing anti-imperialism?

...

I agree but Syria isn't an Arab ethnostate.

He says without a hint irony.

Daily reminder that you are all brainlets and that R0java is supported by real life marxists-leninists.

Tankies here, including the board owner are idiots.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_Communist_Party_(Turkey)#Involvement_in_Syrian_Civil_War

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist-Leninist_Party_(Communist_Reconstruction)

Just to name afew.

Show me how the Kurds are turning against their masters?
>Hollande laid out a stunning list of targets. Implicitly taking Macron’s policy to task, he warned about Russia and its ties to Turkey and Syria: “Russia has been rearming for years now, and if it is threatening, it must be threatened. By allowing Ankara to bomb our Kurdish allies in Syria, Moscow is also trying to divide NATO. Barely a year ago, [Russian President] Vladimir Putin could not find harsh enough words for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Now, these two countries have agreed on a partition of Syria.”

wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/15/fran-m15.html
Looks like French imperialism is still fighting on their behalf and their establishment is even showing a willingness to go up against Russia on their behalf.

And that wouldn't apply to R0java because?

true but will you at least acknowledge that the Syrian state has a history of discriminating against non-arabs, including the Kurds?

...

Real life ☭TANKIE☭s are ok, see here

'Tankies' on leftypol on the other hand are illiterate brainlets.

Then why do you deny the independence of the Kurds and the fact that they clearly have their own agenda independent of the US?

Is that why Assad’s government has a history of discrimination against Kurds including denying them minority language rights? Is that why the Kurds have done literally the opposite of that, setting up education and public services in minority languages even in Kurdish majority regions, setting up special councils for minorities that only they are allowed to elect, and generally making deliberate efforts at inclusion and cooperation? Is that why they are literally not calling for R*java to separate from Syria and instead calling for a democratic confederalist constitution for the whole country? What the Kurds are fighting for is a democratic and at least quasi-socialist revolution pure and simple.

Directly opposing Turkey (important US ally and NATO member), collaborating regularly with Assad and Russia, collaborating regularly with the PKK (which the US considered a terrorist organization). Refusing to call for independence or even taking a firm stance for or against regime change, fighting the FSA. Just to name a few.

I don’t consider all MLs to be ☭TANKIE☭s, just the retarded ones.

Wow guys Trump said good things about Putin, Russia US puppet confirmed.

This is like saying "show me where in 90-91 when Assad was turning against his masters" during those years which couldn't have been done as we can't predict the future. Your point was a vague assertion that puppets CAN turn on their masters so unless you have omniscience why doesn't this apply to the over a dozen US military bases in Syria?

Sounds cool

Totally. They also have a history of violently suppressing Sunni Arabs.

And a history of violently repressing communists. And a lot of historical and ideological ties to European fascism. Almost make you think that Ba’athism is reactionary doesn’t it?

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He referred to them as our allies in Syria, I've never even heard Trump refer to Putin as a potential ally of the United States. Then you have to wonder, well, ally against whom? Is France at war in Syria? If so, who is the war and for what interest?

Isn't it curious that the former colonial overlord takes such a keen interest in Syria's internal affairs that they take sides and seek to pick winners and losers in their former colony's civil war?

Rhetoric and speeches do not trump the realities on the ground, which clearly demonstrate that the Kurds are acting independently and in their own interests, which, due to their conflict with ISIS, had temporarily aligned with US interests. However Kurdish activity has demonstrated that they have no problem opposing US interests when it suits them.

Rojava wasn't even anarchist.

but it is partly influenced and supported by anarchists

At last. Now I truly see.

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the over a dozen US military bases in Syria is being defeated and in great detail :^)

in all seriousness can you expand on this?

Defeat in detail is a military tactic. Essentially you engage a small, isolated enemy force with a large force in order to wither your opponent down.

*successively engage

I must be misunderstanding this, because it just sounds like good old fashioned superior force and encirclement.

It’s basically a divide and conquer tactic used by smaller forces to defeat larger ones. Essentially you focus your forces to achieve local superiority to destroy your enemy piecemeal.

right, so it's about superior maneuver and concentration of forces.

"If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented." Sun Tzu

...

/leftpol/ has already admitted this when they started shilling for the US presence fearing what is to come.

there are M-Ls on the ground in Kurdistan right now fighting the Turkish army but I guess that doesn't count

better quality pic?

Genocide means the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Kurds are not an ethnic group, they are a fictitious ethnicity created by the USA in order to justify the division of socialist Middle Eastern states.

at last I truly see

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

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this

...

Really makes me think.

...

If race ain't real, it's not possible to "ethnically cleanse" anything.

...

No, it's just wrong.

What about it was untrue? There are ☭TANKIE☭s that are cheering Erdogan on right now, that constantly insist either that Russia isn’t imperialist or that their imperialism is somehow a good thing, that the Kurds are bad for calling for an ethnostate (which they aren’t even doing) but that nations also have the right to self determination, that they are NATO puppets even though they are actually fighting a NATO power. There isn’t a single strawman there.

even if race is not real it is still possible to target a group of people for extermination based on their cultural and linguistic heritage. So yes, you can still commit ethnic cleansing even though race is a social construct.

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Race isn't ethnicity. Saying that people with different skin tones don't have enough genetic variation to constitute a different "race" is completely compatible with recognizing that distinct groups with regional customs and culture can constitute an ethnicity.

Spooks.

Cultures change all the times, thus it's not possible to destroy cultures.

Nobody is pearl clutching about destroying culture. The targeted slaughter of people based on their culture is the issue.

Which is not real because culture is a spook.

Show me a culture.

Something being a spook doesn't make it unreal. Distinct languages, religions, and customs are real phenomena.

So race is real then?

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Race as a social construct is real. Race as a distinct genetic category is not.

Dogs change all the times, thus it's not possible to destroy dogs.

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Wow, so race is real.

True.

plural denotes a set of particulars, ya dingus

What did you just say?

so this thread has gone from excusing t*rkish imperialism to misunderstanding what race is to misunderstanding what spooks are.
Honestly this is an Improvement.

Yes. The abstraction of race is real. This is not the same as saying that there is scientific evidence that race exists genetically.

Can you show me this "abstraction of race"?

I can show you DNA.

What am I misunderstanding?

Races are a spook, no? Same for culture.

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race and culture are both spooks but that does not automatically mean that they are not real and do not have an impact on people's lives.

member when Holla Forums wasn't retarded?

revisionism at its finest

Before 2011 kurds were not alloweed to be citizens or speak their own langauge in public,

They also aren’t allowed to publish anything written in Kurdish, open private schools that educate in Kurdish, or give their children Kurdish names.

youtube.com/watch?v=aLDbY9P-qp8

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Why is it only middle class brats going over there? Adventurism? Boredom?

Anarkiddie intellectualism in action, you really think you'd be in a position to break ties with the fucking US? Worked out well for all their other puppets didn't it? Fucking retard.

youtube.com/watch?v=Sm-q8zACcvM&t
also important viewing

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Who? Bookchin? The anarchist that said he'll kill marxists if they dared overthrow the state?

Lel.

Dosen't exist lad

Based J barg.
Roo and J barg collaboration when?

Damn man, you've convinced me that another middle eastern state needs to be conquered and have its people murdered by US backed jihadis.

Really got me noggin joggin there friend!

Petty bourgeois whatever, or are you really equating these pampered rich kids to people working hand-to-mouth?

you can thank the kurds for defeating ISIS and making sure that doesn't happen :)

Holy shit this needs to happen, even better if Jim Profit could be thrown in too

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So one US backed paramilitary group defeated another US backed paramilitary group? Great contribution, however I must evoke the wordfilter over a dozen US military bases in Syria.

Have you any evidence that's the case?
I very much doubt she owned a small business It seems to me that your very annoyed that a young women gave up her life i'm sorry that hurts you so much personally I really am.

If only there was a third option that was neither reactionary nor imperialist! I guess we’ll never know what it is…

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This meme needs to stop, it makes absolutely no sense and has no real evidence.

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She was friends with that other middle class twat Badmouse, she doesn't need to own any property herself HOWEVER people are normally conceived from two people having sex, meaning she has PARENTS. These parents probably own property, like most middle class people do; funding her venture to over a dozen US military bases in Syria.

I'm from the UK too, so our middle class is different to the middle class in the US. UK middle class are normally comprised of very affluent, (compared to most western countries) educated landlord types.

rt.com/usa/413252-report-isis-weapons-syria/

"ISIS" doesn't even exist, it's just an amalgamation of the "rebels" the US initially funded to overthrow assad.

Nobody is denying that the US sent weapons to the Syrian rebels, but we all know that ISIS is not the entire FSA, and we also know that defections and arms deals between rebel groups were common. In other words, this is not proof of US backing for ISIS.

Retard the only type of "evidence" you'll deem legitimate is shit pumped out from the west, who have a vested interest in disassociating themselves from ISIS altogether.

I bet you believe in the "bumbling US empire" myth too? That THEIR weapons found themselves in the hands of ISIS by "accident". Kill yourself.

Quick somebody tell Engels!

I guess toyota supports ISIS too because they all drive Hilux's and Land Cruiser's

Where did I say that? Seriously, show me where I said that? I criticized adventurism and rudderless middle class kids who need to feel important.

You seriously don't think the US has a hand in the group that IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE VERY GOVERNMENT THAT THE US WANTS OVERTHROWN?

Are you that fucking dense?

Jesus this board.

holy shit the state of this board

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Goodness me what a black and white way of looking at class.
I couldn't care less if she knew Badmouse or not or that you think he's a "twat". I know many working class parents that own property, that property happens to be so cheap because it's either in an awful area or in a rural area where prices can be very low.
You have no evidence her parents funded her venture whatsoever. I'm from the bongland too and the "middle class" can vary massively depending on where you happen to live or your said profession it's often more of a culture thing here an office worker can make less than a brick-layer and still be considered "middle class".
Just calm down and stop getting so wound up about a young women dying abroad it's making you look rather edgy.

The only evidence I’ll deem legitimate are things that actually prove US backing for ISIS. Now it’s possible that the US intended for these weapons to end up in ISIS hands using the FSA as a proxy, but there are plenty of other things that contradict this narrative.

The most glaring one is the fact that the US launched direct intervention against ISIS with its air and spec ops campaign. In fact the US was instrumental in turning the war against ISIS at the battle of Kobane. If ISIS was a US proxy then it doesn’t make any sense that they would stop them from achieving a decisive victory and randomly switch sides while ISIS was at the height of its power. They are also arming and supporting literally all of ISIS’ opponents except Assad, including the FSA, Kurds, and Iraqis.

In other words, if ISIS was an American proxy then America’s behaviour towards them makes absolutely no sense.

Then why did the US intervene against them in Kobane?

You don't understand how complex the situation is over there. There are literally a gorillion different rebel groups and coalitions of rebel groups in Syria.
the US has armed certainly some moderate beheaders (like Nour al-Din al-Zenki) but I doubt they have deliberately given guns specifically to ISIS

*certainly armed

The narrative woven for you about America's battle against ISIS has come from AMERICA and its puppets. Question your sources.

Follow what's happening in eastern ghouta, the US is actively allowing ISIS to operate within its territory.

Read up on the white helmets too, another US sponsored terrorist group under the guise of aid workers.

There is NO DEPTH that America wont sink too, you are woefully naive.

Especially since everything indicates that an ISIS ruled Syria would be just as hostile to the US as a Baathist ruled Syria.

Less being directly funded and more fuelling a situation where they can arise.
Similar but there's a distinction it's not the whole nicaragua contras deal.

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So are you saying that the US bombing campaign against ISIS didn’t happen?

Even though Afrin is falling, the RO J AVa managed to deal out equal amounts of kills against a modern military. That's not exactly nothing.

The Federation of Northern Syria isn't an ethnostate. Brainlet.

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So you are unironically saying that something that was documented by news sources all around the world, acknowledged by all parties to the conflict, and has mountains of video and eyewitness evidence didn’t happen?

At least they're doing something. What are you doing for the global revolution?

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You’re right, sitting around and doing nothing is actually existing socialism.

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We don't know the details, as someone said the details are complex. The people bombed could be ISIS defectors, no one knows. They could have bombed adversarial groups and claimed it was ISIS - if this sounds unlikely, I have to ask, why do you think lying is beneath the US?

No it wont, Jihadi "ruled" Iraq was absolutely no threat to the US as opposed to Sadam.

"Jihadi" ruled afghanistan posed no threat either, yet soviet occupied afghanistan did.

Muslim extremists have ALWAYS cozied up and been the subjects of the west.

Heck, the west created that very extremism in the first place by partitioning almost the entire middle east/india in the 20th century. Creating Saudi arabia as it is now.

This thread is fucked ahahaa

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It’s pretty telling that ☭TANKIE☭ retardation pretty quickly degenerates into Alex Jones tier conspiracy theories.

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KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK.

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R0 jJ aV A is a multiethnic democracy.

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Saddam was never a threat to America, what the fuck are you smoking. Or did you actually believe the WMD bullshit?
This is only true for muslim extremists who are useful to the US, hence why the Saudis are considered good guys but Iran is enemy #1.
And now America is fighting them because that's how geopolitics works. America doesn't want an ISIS ruled Syria, they want a stable, pro-us dictatorship like what they tried (and failed) to establish in Iraq.

I wasn't implying militarily, I was implying that he threatened their interests.

You'll see how fast ISIS disintegrates once its funding dries up after having fulfilled its goal, whatever state it conquers will then become a pro-US dictatorship.

Then why are they slaughtering Syrians and Assyrians wherever they find them? Doesn't sound like something a multiethnic democracy would do. Almost like…they were ethnonationalists or something. But that cant be, Anita Sarkeesian would never lie about something like this, right?

T. Amnesty international
Amazing how ☭TANKIE☭s and Assadists will repeat imperialist propaganda verbatim when its used to discredit the Kurds.

I don’t think lying is beneath the US. But there is lying and then there is conspiratorial nonsense. The bombing was recognized by numerous sources as well as all parties to the conflict, not even Russian or Syrian state media attempted to claim that the US was conducting a fake bombing campaign because that notion is laughable on the surface of it. The simplest and most logical solution is that the US is simply not backing ISIS, since there is no hard evidence anyway and if they were then suddenly a whole mess of other highly convoluted shit like fake bombing campaigns and some 4D chess manipulation of multiple US proxies at war with each other would all have to also be true. Occam’s razor son.

Right it’s not like the Taliban aided and sheltered the nerve centre of Al Queda while they planned and carried out 9/11 or anything.

The Kurds are neither separatist nor is their movement ethnocentrist. Why do you insist on repeating things that have been proven false multiple times?

They aren’t, nobody even claimed they were. There was one amnesty international report (which was later redacted) which claimed that Kurds were displacing Arabs from their villages and forcing them into SAA territory. It turns out they were clearing the villages to search them for IEDs before letting people return home. The main Assyrian armed faction, the Syriac Military Council, is literally a member of the S D F.

This might be believable if US bombs hadn’t played a decisive role in support of the Kurds and Iraqi military in defeating ISIS.

I don't really buy into the whole ethnonationalist thing myself, that's mainly a Phil Greaves thing, but it can't be denied that the Kurds are good goys for US imperialism/Israel. You would literally have to be retarded not to see that.

It depends on what you mean by good boys. Are their interests currently aligned to an extent? Obviously. The US wants a presence in the region and the Kurds want to not be murdered by Al Queda, Erdogan, or Assad. Are their interests necessarily aligned? No, of course not. The fastest way to get the US out of Syria would be for Assad to recognize D F N S.

I confess, I really don't get it.
The US has (or has had) economic and political relationships established with most of the world, including the country that just steamrolled RJVA. Meanwhile, RJVA was cozying up to Assad shortly before this happened.

Nowhere in all this can I see a reason why ideological sympathy (about the only thing anyone on this board will lend to a revolutionary cause of any sort anyhow) or 'moral support' (see previous parentheses) for RJVA can be wholesale rejected. Even groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda, unless I'm mistaken, aren't performing every single killing with direct go-ahead from the CIA.

There's something really off about her face but I can't tell what it is.

Name at least one not meme M-L party?
(the ones that I mentioned who are actually doing stuff and not hijacking a board with insane potential don't count)

I also forgot to mention here is that R0java is also allied with Assad and Russia.

It's actually sad and alarming.

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If Erdogan attacks Manbij and the US still doesn't help… Wouldn't they most likely ally with Assad and tell the US to leave?

The Kurds are a bunch of selfish boot licking faggots, they would suck any ones dick, to get their Kurdistan Materialized.
They Will never side with Assad.
They will keep sucking US dick even if they lose Mambij.
Mark my words.
Erdogan will launch an attack to Mambij and the US will leave Turkey is more important than a Liberal utopia (rojava)

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It's very satisfying to be proved correct. I stated over twelve months ago that the purpose of western volunteers was to be human shields and their deaths displayed to provoke outrage when the Turkish army inevitably attacked the Kurds.

...

The Syriac Military Council is a founding member of the Syrian Democratic Forces. They've been allied with the Y.P.G. since 2014 and have grown the include all Assyrian militas in the region i.e. the Khabour Guards and Natteroh.
It's ironic how the most pluralistic group in this war is being accused of ethnic cleansing. Read a Wikipedia page at least

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lol, calm down middle class landlord spawn

Yeah we should support Russian imperialism instead. Fuck communists who get supplies from USA like Stalin.

R*java is already allied with Assad,

M8 the Kurds have literally said they will integrate their militia into the SAA after the war is over, and neither the PYD or PKK are calling for independence. Get your head out of Phil Greaves ass.

The only way anybody could oppose the R*java project and still call themselves a leftist is by either being willfully ignorant of the situation or doing mental gymnastics like telling themselves that Russian imperialism is good.

Fuck off CIA

What a deflecting little worm you are.

I bet you unironically would have sided with Germany in WW1 instead of practicing revolutionary defeatism.

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Your stance invariably and DIRECTLY enables US imperialism to take place. The US empire is leagues beyond any other power in the world right now. If it succeeds in carving up syria then capitalism only entrenches itself FURTHER.

sputniknews.com/middleeast/201803191062695902-daesh-evacuation-syria/?utm_source=https://t.co/ZfNpIg7g4v&utm_medium=short_url&utm_content=hagx&utm_campaign=URL_shortening

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NATO must be stopped at all costs.

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Rojava over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria over a dozen US military bases in Syria

and what you, and most other ☭TANKIE☭s fail to realize, is that capitalism won't end just because American imperialism ends.

And Turkey is apart of NATO

is there any limit to the 'support [insert group here] against NATO' mindset?
pic sort of related

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Yes, let's leave the empire, who has been the SOLE detractor of socialist movements the world over, to carry out its ambitions.

The empire who has been responsible for overthrowing every slightly left of center government in the 20th century.

The empire who with every plundered country only propagates capitalism for another 50 years.

BUT MUH EVIL MONGOL RUSSIANS! MUH EUROPEAN IDEALS! MUH EVIL SAVAGE SLAVS ON THE DOORSTEP!

Goebells would be proud.

In fact there would have been no "imperialist" russia without the US. That's the irony of it all.

Can a mod ban all anarchildren please?

No.

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I

wonder

what

website

you

crawled

out

of

The website of observable reality.

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Literally nobody is saying that NATO is good or that we shouldn’t combat American imperialism. We are only saying that you can combat American imperialism without becoming a useful idiot for Russian and Chinese porkies.

If American imperialism is abolished that creates a vaccum for Britain, France, and yes, even Russia to expand their own imperial ambitions.
Or do you honestly think that Putin will be friendlier to international communism than America? Putin is an oligarch, his entire country is run by porkies.

They don't just stop with giving them guns, he US has over a fucking Millitary bases on their land.

YPG is such a puppet

The US leased Soviet airbases in Ukraine during WW2.

Man you people don't understand geopolitics at all, these countries are effectively powerless without the US. If the US falls, more countries can have autonomy and practice socialism without having the entire worlds military (which I'm implying is the US military) arrayed against them. They wont have people interfering in their elections and sabotaging their economy through sanctions.

You idiots really are underestimating how thorough US power is, it's absence wouldn't automatically bolster another "empire". This isn't a fucking RTS game. IT would make it easier for other countries to become socialist because the empire that was founded on genocidal capitalist tenets wouldn't be dictating policy for the world.

Vociferously denouncing Russia within the context of a dominating and ever expanding US hegemon is illogical. It ONLY leads to the US further establishing itself as the "just arbiter" of the world. Yes, we would like to see Russia and Chinese capitalists fall to but AFTER the US has completely disintegrated.

You are the exact reason why the western left are so impotent and complicit in western crimes, forever excusing America whenever push comes to shove.

The US dwarfs russia both economically and militarily by many orders of magnitude. The US would need to collapse first.

...

The US is the only country that can carry out the sheer amount of military operations it's engulfed itself in. Even all the EU combined wont be able to supplant the US if it were to collapse because most developing countries have access to basic weaponry.

No matter how scant that weaponry is, no country outside the US is willing to immerse itself in policing another country and fending off guerilla attacks. The proxy wars we've seen recently can only happen at the behest of NATO, i.e. America. It's subsidiaries in the EU get a fraction of the plunder for every state the US interferes with.

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No it isn’t. Denouncing any and all forms of imperialism when they appear is the only correct position for a socialist to hold. Anything else is collaboration.

You can make the exact same argument about Russia and especially China. Any slack left by the American Empire will immediately be snatched up by their rivals. Russia and China won’t wait patiently for America to collapse before expanding to fill the vacuum, they will aggressively pursue any opportunities as they arise. It’s an exercise in futility.

Point to a single case where I made excuses for America’s crimes.

It's a pretty big fucking step, you mong. It's practically the heart of capitalism.

When we mean the US, we mean the multinational corporations that have source themselves from the US too.

The EU is a bigger economy and China is growing faster.

Those corporations will just rebase to somewhere else if America goes to shit. They aren’t tied to the US in any way.

capitalism is global, destroying America without ending capitalism will just shift power to another capitalist nation.
Which is exactly what's happening right now with the rise of China.

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The heart of capitalism isn't America itself, only the New York Stock Exchange and the Nasdaq exchange. This is why capitalism had a minor stroke on 9/11, because all markets were closed alongside American airspace (a major part of modern commerce). The 100x200' complex between Exchange Pl and Wall St is capitalism. It'd only take one very large bomb to destroy it and cripple the capitalist regime. One of the reasons why the nearby Twin Towers were favored targets of former terrorist Osama Bin Laden.

One of the reasons why it's now impossible to just drive a car in front of it.

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No one is endorsing imperialism you mongrel, we are saying look at the CONTEXT. The US is the MAJOR POWER in the world.

It's such absurd logic, like saying that you shouldn't release a woman from her abusive husband because another abusive man may come to fill the void.

Your view is eerily similar to sargon's shitty horseshoe theory. The US empire is ostensibly worse than all other empire's and has tallied a higher death count and more human misery than either china or russia. It's not comparable.

Are you trying to equivocate on power here? Moving the goalpost? The EU cannot even hold a candle to US power; without that power the EU can not find itself interfering globally as did the US.

Destroying America would be the single largest revolutionary act in history and would thus be the greatest animating force for a global revolution. I say this because that "destruction" is so implausible that the equally improbable event of global communism could happen.

Global communism cannot happen while the US maintains its empire. There's no doubt about this. Unless you think we wait for benevolent anglos to let communism transpire naturally.

Forcing the American empire into retreat us actually an incredibly important part of defeating capitalism. Without America the international bourgeoisie will become scattered among the various second tier capitalist countries like Russia and Germany (and by extension the entire EU.) We need multipolarity.

People are probably misinterpreting what I mean by "destroy america", I don't mean kill all americans but smashing its imperial infrastructure so utterly that it cannot ever hope to revive its empire again. To destroy america is to destroy the very concept of its insidious ideals that shackles its own population to cannibalistic, cutthroat capitalism.

No, because it’s not that another empire may fill the void, it’s that they definitely, surely, without question, WILL fill that void. If you knew that getting rid of one abusive husband would definitely result in another one coming along, then there would be no point would there?

80 years ago that title was held by the British Empire. That Empire collapsed and guess what? Literally no progress was made in the fight against capitalism, instead that gap was immediately filled by America.

This isn’t the 19th century, the ruling class has gone global. American imperialism is only “American” insofar as the US state is the primary tool of an international ruling class. If that empire collapses then American porkies will just invest in Russian and Chinese companies and make money off of Russian and Chinese imperialism. Not only will the collapse of the American Empire not hurt capitalism, it won’t even hurt the American capitalist class.

Show me proof that a situation of multipolarity leads to more favorable conditions for advancing communism than what we have now.

literally true though
read comrade Hobbes

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Kurds are homo erectus primitives, what did you expect?

Go back to reddit

Even the concept of uni/multipolarity is outdated. American porkies are invested in Russian companies. Chinese porkies are invested in Saudi companies. French porkies are invested in American companies. Conflicts between states, with the exception of those that are largely excluded from the global economy (Iran, DPRK) is literally part of the spectacle.

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Look dude, I feel like you're arguing for the sake of it. I'm not going to explain present politics for you so I'll only entertain one more reply.

What you'd need to do is get rid of the husband and set up precautions for another abusive man to avoid that woman. Outside of this allegory, we would see the collapse of the US and in that moment have the best opportunity for socialism to take root.

Heck, the very conditions that could lead to the US "collapsing" could also lead to genuine socialism taking root there. No one know the USSR would arise out of old russia.

It's about creating space for opportunity, which cannot take place while the US keeps its stranglehold.

Yet the british empire didn't suddenly collapse, it was in cahoots with the Americans almost constantly after WW1. The brits still maintained colonies till the 1960's, it was a transfer of power that arose from one empire dwindling. Not collapsing.

No I think there was, however fleeting and small they were, it made fertile ground for various seditious groups within colonies and other autocratic regimes to gain power. The british empire also relinquished most of its colonies and had given (somewhat) liberty to those still subject to them. This doesn't mean much to you because you're a eurocentric westerner.

As I said above, the very conditions that could lead to America "falling" would send the ruling class in such disarray that their organizing would be profoundly more difficult. Making fertile ground for revolution in any country who may still have puppet governments.

True, but that also means being vigilant for encroaching Russian or Chinese imperialism that will surely be lurking in any area where America is in retreat. In other words it means opposing other countries imperialism here and now, not just America’s.

Empires in general don’t collapse suddenly unless they are defeated in a world war like Germany in WW1, which still didn’t accomplish much because its imperial holdings were immediately gobbled up by the Entente. Typically they experience a long decline and gradual collapse, thinking that a few third world victories will cause the US to double over and fall apart all at once in a cataclysmic fashion is just not realistic.

Perhaps if there was a rapid collapse, but only because this would probably cause an economic crash and a general crisis of capitalism, in which case crisis would be the cause of the revolutionary conditions, not anti imperialism. This would also probably require America to collapse from within like a civil war or coup or something.

I hate making analogies but I must allude to the mongols, who were effectively impotent after Genghis had died. It's about the decentralization of power which can make an enemy that much weaker.

That enemy being capitalism, and the leader America.

You sound like a propagandist for the Economist.

...

But after Genghis Khan died the Mongol Empire didn't disappear, it split apart and continued on in a different form-the Golden Horde, the Yuan dynasty. And unlike past empires global capitalism isn't a unified empire the way that the mongols were, there is no king of capital city that controls everything.

But you seem more concerned with Russian/Chinese boogeymen then the overwhelming presence of US empire. Like you're offering up a doomsday scenario in case the US doesn't have a monopoly on world affairs.

Like a typical social democrat: "it ain't good but it's the best we got!".

This. And unlike in the past capital is mobile. If America collapses its elite would just hop on their private jets, stash their shit in Swiss bank accounts, and set up shop somewhere else.

I’m not saying either is better, I’m saying we should fight both and not make excuses for either.

America is effectively the leading nation of the capitalist west.

The mongol empire didn't disappear but it didn't pose the same threat it did under Genghis. That's the point.

And I'm saying we need to be more averse to american imperialism because IT'S DOING THE MOST DAMAGE. It's not fucking comparable, stop trying to equate russia and the US. Russia has suffered under sanctions for fucking years, it's poor as fuck.

As long as the capitalists were scattered among different countries and spheres of influence it would be a change for the better. Right now all of them are unified and represented by the American empire.

Your mistake is in assuming that fighting American imperialism while ignoring other countries will accomplish anything. The only reason why Russia or China aren’t as destructive as America is because they lack the capacity to be, which means that as soon as they acquire that capacity they will be just as bad. That means that when we drive America out of a country, we must do so without allowing Russian or Chinese porkies to gain a foothold, because doing so will just create America 2.0: Beijing edition.

Yes but they have no national loyalty, they will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship, and once America’s empire collapses they will just refirect their investments elsewhere.

Ok so let's fight 3 forces at once, who are already at each others throats, instead of taking on the largest and most destructive of them.

Or…….just sit by and wait for the US to gobble up the world because we're paranoid about evil russians and the US?

This is the "pragmatism" of anarkiddies I see.

I have no problem with playing imperialists off against each other, but that’s different than letting them fuck us. If China wants to fund a revolution against a US backed regime then fine, take their money and their guns but as soon as they try to pull some shit on us we drop them like a sack of used turds. The same goes for the US backing groups like the over a dozen US military bases in Syria, or taking advantage of any inter-imperial conflict. They will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.

This is a bold assumption, and this is what I mean in that you sound like a propagandist. Why would they be just as bad? Because you've bought into western drivel about the evil orientals and slavs?

Or is it because you're a liberal trying to apply video game politics to real life?

Anything could fucking happen when America is out of the picture, your fear is undoubtedly molded by western propaganda about an absent US empire.

Shit, you'd be perfect for PragerU.

They've invested the majority of their wealth, and are in debt, to infrastructure that is built within the US. They can't just leave without taking a SERIOUS blow to their power.

Because they are porkies, and the logic of capital dictates that porkies will exploit everything they can to the furthest possible degree. Read Lenin for fuck’s sake, imperialism and ruthless super-exploitation is an inevitable consequence of capitalism, regardless of its national origin.

They’ve spent the last 30 years systematically dismantling that infrastructure and moving it to China fam.

Akshually, the US economy is larger in GDP then the entire EU combined and Brexit will only lead to massive reduction in the EU's cumulative weight.

Yet the locus of their wealth still remains in the US, the US is still the wealthiest country because of capitalist presence. Not china.

Stop being a contrarian for the sake of it.

With that cynicism, there's absolutely no point in hoping for communism because another power structure will just fill the void. If you are not against the US, in every aspect, then you are a collaborator.

Who are "us"? I hope you're not including US military and the ruling class in "us".

US manufacturing output has grown. The jobs aren't here but the manufacturing infrastructure still is.

Can a mod ban this retard to /leftpol/, he's not even attempting to disguise his love for US imperialism.

What does that statement have to do with the fact that regardless of national origin the exploitative market imperatives of capital will dominate capitalism?

Because it actively precludes any proper communism from taking form due to the ever present capitalist. You also don't take into account that some capitalists are more harmful to global socialism than others, namely those who have access to the US military.

i dont care about asia

No. It doesn't. Unless you think capitalists randomly rocket out of the void or are a natural occurrence. Recognizing that Russian capitalism is as exploitative as US capitalism doesn't change the central task of communists which is the negation of capital along with the "ever present capitalist".
You're right. Those Russian oligarchs have a soft spot for socialism and have no military of their own. I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I'm getting shot by a kalashnikov instead of an M4.

It's perfectly reasonable to think that a multipolar world offers better organizing conditions but it's completely ridiculous to operate under the assumption that Russian or Chinese dominated capitalism is less exploitative than US capitalism.

The us has a more powerful military than both Russia and China, this is a fact. They are able to exploit more than those two countries as a result, this is a fact.

We would have an easier time combating Russia or China than the US, this is a fact.

Stop arguing against facts.

Right but in a multipolar situation the operational regions of the US will shrink whereas Russia's and China's will grow forcing China and Russia to increase their military assests. The militaries you'll face will be comparatively as powerful regionally as the US was globally. I'm not sure it's quite the slam dunk you think it is.

The thing is, the collapse of the US will bring with it the collapse of the dollar - if that wasn't what causes the states collapse in the first place. Leading on to those who rely on the dollar to also become weakened - meaning russia and china. There is also considerable debt owed to china from the US, if it cannot recuperate that debt following America's collapse, then it loses power.

If a socialist movement isn't galvanized in that interim during the chaos, then there will never be a socialist movement.

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