Well guys, it looks like Cockshott has been BTFO:
EE, proving the the LTV requires more assumptions than the subjective theory of value

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Other urls found in this thread:


I feel like i'd cringe into another dimension

Can you give us a tl;dw over view of it all?

>ancap furry

I watched bits from it. It was mostly:
Cockshott: Theory-stuff
EE: No, It's not.
Repeat and comments went "wow he got BTFO"
He should try to debunk researchgate.net/publication/2623737_The_Scientific_Status_of_the_Labour_Theory_of_Value next.

why is this real
why did you link this
why did this guy not kill himself already
op why the fuck did you click on this cancerous video in the firstplace
just what the actual fucking shit is complete retard talking about

Oh yeah the LTV was confirmed bullshit, why Cockshott supports it is beyond me. I'm glad he pulled it down.
There's no need to post some ancap furfag.

You lied about reading Mutual aid, and refused to provide evidence to back your statement.

Kill yourself

I wonder how bad this will be…
It is already too much.

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the comments are too much for me to handle
i feel like i got an aneurism on the "he literally doesn´t understand basic economics" comment

No it wasn't.

Wait why the fuck did Cockshott take down the LTV video?

What mutual aid.

It was.
t. Correct.

I have no clue, he made it private but I hope he saw the error in his ways, I love the man but LTV is one thing I will never agree with.


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Wait what the fuck kind of reasoning is that.

ReLeaSE Me

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Excuse me the correct quote from Robocop is:
"Don't Touch Me Man!"

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how does one make observations of a theory

as bullshit as the video is - this is not really that great of a criticism

from my understanding, you formulate a hypothesis (which you seem to be conflating with 'theory'), and then you make observations by way of active experimentation or passive onlooking that either support or deny the
validity of the hypothesis - the more support it has; the more likely it is to become a theory, which is distinctly different (and more prominent) than a hypothesis. then it becomes established law as the theory strengthens

this repeats for about a dozen times

Yeah, sure, you can formulate a theory, or make observations that lead you to formulate one. But you can't make an observation of a theory. Theories are not observable entities that are out there waiting to be observed.

i think it's just an argument from semantics at this point, though. you observe evidence in support of a theory, not the theory itself

I mean most of this is "not even wrong" territory. He plain doesn't understand what Cockshott is trying to say, imagines what it could mean based on his preconceptions, and then responds to those. Mind you, this reformulation remains entirely internal, so it is left up to the viewer to guess what autistic entity think Cockshott is actually saying.

Yes, I am making fun of the fact he doesn't know how to use words.

fair enough

As usual with these youtube responses, debates, etc. I haven't even watched the damn thing but just reading the thread about it is excruciating.

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I'm going to stop, this entire format of a detached short excerpt followed by commentary followed by short excerpt etc. is unwatchable. It's the moving picture version of a sentence by sentence greentext response.

Hopefully just to rerecord with some audio you can actually hear.

"I'd sell my mother into slavery" if Cockshott actually responded.

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I…. oh my god.

I would prefer not to

18 years old furry-fag ancap youtuber to 66 years old distinguished senior academic:

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>[13:35] And you don't understand Occam's razor either! This is the guy who presented this at a major political event just to remind you. Proving once and for all that mainstream politics are nothing more than a big fucking joke.

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>[14:50] …shows your ignorance on the topic at hand AND that you've never actually read Marx despite representing his ideology.
Holy moly.

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so this is what we're doing now? Jut saying bullshit?

didn't mean to sage

To be fair doesn't Cockshott misuse Occam's Razor here? I think he probably meant to use Popper's Falsifiability Principle

I'd have to look at the original to know because this is heavily cut.

I heard this jackass' voice for 5 seconds, saw what the format of the video was, and decided that I'd rather staple my dick to my left thigh than watch more. Why do these youtube pseuds always have the same insufferable voice

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Stop posting this shit. No one actually wants to watch this.

Is uploading videos supply and demand?

this is the worst meme ever

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Stop shitposting here and go raid his comment section and downvote the video. This bullshit has way too many likes and supportive comments

"Free market of ideas", right?

I'll downvote the video but I ain't spending any time arguing with literal retards on youtube nigga

This comment is perfect in so many ways

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sometimes it's good to engage with literal retards on the internet, so you are prepared when the time comes you must engage with them IRL

I love how Cockshott says that even people like Adam Smith tought LTV was correct but these faggots just can't over their shitty buzzword tier non-arguements. Basic economics my ass.

lul he disabled the like/dislike bar and is filtering out all the negative comments, it's ass kissing all the way down.

From what I can gather, another internet ancap humiliates himself with fallacious arguments

Does EE say anything about the econophysics book Cockshott cites in another vid and the follow up study or does he just scream "LTV IS NOT TRUE IT'S NOT TRUE IT'S NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT" for 20 minutes?

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that, and
and other BS.


kekking hard

the only improvement would be if the furry-cap would heart it


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He keeps deleting comments. Jesus, why are AnCaps such babies? I remember I got my comments deleted under two AnCap videos before, this doesn't even happen under alt-right YouTubers.

because the slit-shite can at least play the HURRRR JOOZ game and think they're being S-M-R-T.

These morons don't even have that.

That will be on Esoteric Entity's tombstone.

Because they are literally children with some pedos sprinkled in.

Oh god, it's another one of these fucking "refutations"


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Ungrateful brat should be thankful for the views.

We are reaching critical levels of fedora tipping.

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What the fuck slavery is then, according to him? Public ownership?

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I don't even think he misspoke, he's implying supply and demand theory makes more assumptions and this is what I'm assuming makes it unfalsifiable and inherently unscientific if you're going by the principles of occam's razor.

I wanted to say "that's actually pretty sad" than saw her other video: youtube.com/watch?v=xFFHlwyoElw

Now we wait.

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God damn fucking troll culture.

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aaand it's gone

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You don't need occams razor in this case. You can just say that supply and demand needs another known variable to make it falsifiable
(labor time). Just knowing that price is a product of supply and demand doesn't make any testable predictions by itself.

Are all his fucking ancap followers troglodytes?

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Those fucking fingernails Jesus

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OK I feel bad now too

An-cap nails. youtube.com/watch?v=Hxa1C4018PA

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wtf is this?

One of the followers of furry ancap in OP is a lady with special facial features that a troll makes fun of.

Troll is using ancap cat girl's unfortunate face as profile pic


does he seriously think Cockshott is raiding his video? God this furry faggot is dumb as shit.

What the fuck is up with all the teen furry ancap channels?

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I'm all for taking the piss out of ancucks, but I feel making fun of her might be too insensitive
I think she might be special needs

my point is that MOST OF THEM ARE. This is this guy, for instance:


To be quite honest I think making fun of her looks is going too far. And plus, if you're responding to somehow than we should attack their beliefs, not how they look.

that troll was not one of us
it's from one of her videos 1 year ago

I wonder how long it will take before he deletes my comment
Shit video and furfags can yiff in hell

Their ideology is it's own strawman, it's baffling how intellectually bankrupt ANCAP is.

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Oh i'm fully aware I'm just saying in general that its kinda fucked up to make fun of how she looks

This. Also does nothing but enforce the idea of socialists as immature kiddos which these people already have.

what the actual fuck m8

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Agreed. Manners can be a thing.

my favorite part was when he burped up a gobble of stomach acid, swallowed it, and said

Why are real life ancaps even worse than the maymays?

Every guy with nails like that is a virgin.

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So how about linking to this thread in a reply? I would love to see him break down before our eyes in this very thread.

plz no


This guys got the trifected. Furry ancap mormon.

BO can just ban him.
Please don't tell him to go to leftpol.

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this is where it gets sad with the lemon-nails ancap: youtube.com/watch?v=UBO5qHGjIgI

Middle aged burgers tell their kids that TEH GOMMIES are the source of literally all possible societal ills. This is what happens when their kids listen, which is for a similar reason they are furries: they are extremely sheltered.

This makes too much sense. Also, look at this:

god damnit user

the pets get treated better than than the kids (unconditional love etc)

I mean it would be amusing though and it's not like the guy is gonna stick around here (plus he may just get banned)

I actually kind of feel bad for him…


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the poor bastard probably has some form of autism


It's pretty much the same with kids on the alt-right/lolbert spectrum. I know 4 dudes IRL: the first one is a total sadist misogynistic asshole whose dad committed suicide because her mother cheated on her, the second one is a dude living with her grandma and mom who beat the kid every day for reminding them of the dad that left them, the third one is from separated parents who developed psychotic episodes, the fourth is a dude whose dad died in a war at an early age and became a totally insecure kid with his body full of tattoos trying to fit in everywhere.

Damn feel kinda bad for the kid and I sympathize. Family arguments and divorce are emotionally taxing especially if you're a confused teenager. No wonder they believe in retarded shit, it serves as an escape from their obviously shit life.

Why doesn't it apply here? Supply and demand theory is more complex than LTV. Not to mention, the law of demand is untestable. Needing to add labor time to supply and demand to make it falsifiable proves the point that theory is flawed.

Haha you people are pathetic.

It's perfectly obvious from the debate that goes on that they are poor as shit. Mom says that she's a single earner. (Also look at his kitchen videos.)

Thats all you have to say it doesn't matter which one is more complex.


Hi EE.

I really think this kind of personal troubles is what pushes a lot of fascists, ancaps and the like towards their ideological safe space. Which I always found weird though. In my "depressed isolated teen" phase politics would've been the last thing I cared for.


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t. Esoteric Entity

Fuck off, virgin.

Oh great
some autist linked him to the fun


Hey EE, have you considered National Bolshevism?

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Except it does matter, more complexity increases errors.

You can't have errors in your theory's predictions if it is capable of making no predictions

Yeah I the working class people I knew who had single earner parent(s) had houses eerily similar to the one in the video. Nice size suburban with little furniture house but it's dirty due to no one cleaning, all the dogs are in a single room, not to mention those plastic tubs everywhere etc etc. I've seen the images in the video so many times in real life I can't help but to at least sympathize with his economic plight. His ideology on the other I harbor no sympathy for.

Economic plight and social alienation is what ultimately pushes these people to the far right once they realize the milquetoast conservatism that their parents push on them is just not sufficient or sustainable.

I feel like ancap is what you get when you let your kids learn politics from memes. if you beat them for regurgitating said politics you get salt right.

Simplicity isn't very useful if your theory is fundamentally impossible to test.

Gets sadder. Lemony-nails ancap is stalkin strangers: youtube.com/watch?v=podji2KBlWY
He must be lonely as hell.

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If he lived in a socialist country, he'd be a cute trap fuck slave by now, but instead he'll probably end up shooting at a sorority house and missing everyone inside. Sad…..

Pretty sure the dude who's sperging out over people expressing disagreement is the pathetic one. Aren't you ancaps supposed to be the people who are all about the "marketplace of ideas"?

:( yeah I hope hes ok

I mean just because some people are lonely doesnt mean they'll shoot up some school or something like that

God damn, talking about kids in poor families brought back some childhood memories. I just remember that one of my best friends in elementary was from a poor minority household. When we went there to play his parents told us that it was time for him to eat, so we waited until the kid came back. They never invited us, guests, to eat with them, or we never got snacks like at other friends' houses and I just realized this was because they were poor as shit.

"I cannot help but feel I'm missing something. Someone."

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Sometimes the marketplace of ideas needs some state intervention.

The thing about right wing politics is that you can easily put it in a very simplistic and digestible format like memes which then can be distributed and mass consumed by people who don't know any better (i.e teenagers and confused early 20 yos). The left has a problem with this, not because THE LEFT CAN'T MEME but because left wing politics typically have way more complex arguments around socioeconomics and class which can't easily be put in an image. The left fails at subversion in this regard.
The right is really effective at dumbing down their message to basically helicopter memes=Commies must die/are the enemy
SJWs and liberals acting crazy=these are the people that you associate with if you disagree with our talking points
then you got some other stuff like rapefugee memes which are basically the blacks are raping wypipo reefer madness-tier. There's some other bases I didn't cover but you get the gist.

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If he lived in a socialist country there's a somewhat bigger chance he would get adequate mental health care. Although maybe he isn't looking for it either.

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Add to this about 100 years of state sponsored anticommunist propaganda and 40 years of rise in production no longer coupled with a rise in wages and you get a young idealistic population that can't turn left.


His ED for anyone interested. A friend of mine got him banned from DA. You're welcome. Ironically it was over DMCA. Private property bit him in the ass.

ED covers a lot of shit but needs to be updated. He's a lesser know skeptic on youtube but he's trying his best to become Sargon tier.

what the fuck is a DA?


DeinvatArt. Shortened DA. One of the pinnacles of Autism.


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Good post user, actually screenshotted

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Not trying to defend the guy, but he could just be a guitar player.

thats what he said

It's not really that far-left politics are too complex for memes, but its that the community is more theory-oriented while neglecting more popular means of appeals. There are plenty of commie memes, especially ones to be made, but it's just that we, being so focused on the intricacies of the ideology, have not yet found a way to convert those ideas into meme-sized chunks that normies find easy to process.

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Is he asking himself?

Meme made of him.

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I didn't know they put guitars inside vagines.

Oh so first its Cockshott and now its the nazbol gang

That is not unusual for him. He considers anything to the left of ancapism to be far left.

I think he's for real and just has autism or some shit. If he's a troll he sure is very passionate about it

Leave the poor bastard alone, he probably has literal down syndrome.

Oh, right, and he's also a five star chef and mushrooms and lemons go together wonderfully.

no he's just fucking stupid. And being vocal when you're this fucking dense is your own choice, he deserves all the shit he gets.

After he got banned he made an alt account and barraged me with these.

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also he doesnt make delicious lemony mushrooms so Esoteric Entity is shit

I think it's much simpler than that, but I might have an American bias. Everyone is a proto-Ancap here. Everyone is a proto-ethnonat. Everyone contains the seeds of the far right because of their socialization. The problem is then not that left wing arguments are too complex in themselves or that rightists are good at dumbing their arguments down. Rightists don't have to dumb anything down because they're just asking people to take their pre-existing reasoning one step further. The right can meme because they never have to do anything other than meme. This is especially true of ancaps who believe exactly the same as the average person, just stripped of any complexity.
Leftists have to make people question how they view culture, politics and the economy. This isn't some failing on our part. It's the consequence of living in pro-capitalist countries. Leftist memes are fine for people who are already leftist or sympathetic to anti-capitalism, but they shouldn't be anywhere near our primary memes of spreading propaganda to normies.

come on now

Tbh we shouldn't hate on him for the autism, but I don't see why we can't hate on him for being a climate change denying ancap fucktard who can't even handle constructive criticism.

Obviously. That still doesn't prevent economist from applying the theory in economic policy. Which goes back to Cockshott's point, we should use less complex theories that use things like human time instead of overly complicated ones that assumes more variables and at times don't match reality.

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also I love that it takes an overly autistic furry ancap to make us have fast, quality threads again. EE if you're reading this, make more videos on LTV, because I'm loving the qualityposting in this thread.

Very true for the older generations and we are still seeing the spillover in this generation. We are definitely heading down the path of socialism being more accepted around the youth but the right wing/bourgeois media is doing everything in their power (and funding) to try to sway younger people towards ANCAP/lobert and fascism with aesthetics and appeals to power/strength. Call me a tinfoil hat nut cause I got no sources on me but I really do think a lot of right wing memes get funded by conservative think tanks and are then sent out to places like Holla Forums and reddit where they get edited and re-edited in the name of OC.

A pretty fair point, the sectarianism of the left really hurts it in the end of the day. Of course it's good to have a diversity of opinions, but it gets in the way of unifying and organizing the left when we are arguing over Marxist-Leninism or anarchism or Proudhonism or who-gives-a-fuck-ism. Say what you will about the right, but at least they can throw away their contradictory differences and unify themselves as an ideological mass. The only hope we got to counter this internationalist, proletariat class solidarity, something very necessary for any mass movement

thx user

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But they dont really they just use a recursive statistical soup that is really just a representation of labor time and call it something else. I get what you're saying though I wish he hadn't taken the video down I'd like to rewatch that part.

Doesn't that rather make everyone a proto-fascist? Genuine question, I dunno much about ancap thought beyond the meme stuff. Are they all ethnonat?

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I also believe this.
basically Astroturfing: The Social Platform

He just went out there viciously insulting some innocent old academic who made a video so people have access to his lectures.

Maybe he'll learn his lesson. Talk shit, get hit. I'm not for bullying him or something, but people really need to learn when they publicly attack somebody, there might be a response.

Well rappers are doing this so why wouldn't conservative think tanks be doing the same.

They use it for things like interest rates and minimum wage: academic.oup.com/cje/article-abstract/38/5/1087/1683221

Use Hooktube, faggot.

I can't actually read this but the abstract of the paper seems to agree with me.

Here's a cut version of Lemoney-nails ancap.

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I meant lemoney shroomsbuuhrp

Oh, yeah you're right. No hate for that guy.
* burp *

Maybe I should actually fuck off to reddit


this video is even more gold. LTV BTFO

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I wasn't contesting the labor part of your comment. The way you worded the first part of your sentence made it seem like you think economists don't apply supply and demand theory to economic policy and I gave you an example where they did and it failed.

it's meant for laughing at a lolcow that the entire thread is centered around, try and keep up

Socialization definitely plays a big role in it all, good observation but I have a slight few disagreements
Doubtful, most people are reactionary due to socialization and bourgeois propaganda in schools but I highly doubt they'd sympathize with Nazi ideology. Most people don't even know/give a shit about the label ethnonat/ANCAP except a select few communities online. This board being one of the smaller communities that gives a shit about internet political sectarianism.
How will we do that in a way that forms mass appeal?

Guys for a few more $ a month he'll start shaving that pube trash he calls a beard

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This makes me uncomfortable.

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Fucking hell, he's still deleting comments.

How does one create advocacy?

Apparently he's correcting a reference in it.

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I bet he's fantasizing about helicopters when deleting hurtful content on his channel.

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Will he delete the comment?

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extremely underrated post


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I wanted to create a cryptic, surreal sort of channel because that's something I was into at the time. Unfortunately, I didn't have much of a budget at the time, so I made do with what I had. I was playing the part of some mentally deranged ward patient, so the "sad" vibes were exactly what I was going for. I eventually stopped making that kind of video and just uploaded more serious stuff like music and videos about computer troubles I was having, and changed my profile pic to have an ancap background, as this account is the account I comment most with (and identifying roughly what my political views are via my avatar helps during discussions involving politics and whatnot). I now realize that leaving my older videos up was a mistake, and I thank you for reminding me of that.

But yeah. These are top notch arguments against anarcho-capitalism. Keep them coming.

can confirm

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that isnt even abstract art. it isnt abstract. its just a fucked up ancap symbol with a shitty george carline quote

Yeah we dont hate you man. At least Im glad to know you're not sad and lonely or anything.

holy shit dude

read cockshott

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At least it's a less pathetic entry into the thread than
So, how will the baby-selling market be organized in your ideal state?

Tell me, what's up with those stupid masks you wear in some of your videos?

What are your thoughts on Jews?

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That's ok dude, we saw that the lemoney shrooms were an act and we laughed with you. BUUURP

First of all, it's not my real email. Secondly, if you want to call me "butthurt" because I'm not letting you disparage anarcho-capitalism over videos that have nothing to do with anarcho-capitalism, that's your prerogative, but I honestly could care less.

Also, Teflon is not good for your health:

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Then why did you change it then?

Please stop

please never stop embarrassing yourself my d00d

They can be good people, but some are not. I don't think there should be a monopoly on the legitimate use of force period, so it doesn't bother me so much that the Jews are on top as it bothers me that anyone is on top at all.

felt like it


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Fuck you
Link hooktube


how are you an ancap then

I didn't know the force was a female but it makes sense I guess. What's its legitimate use?

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you can't dislike video on hooktube

Well you're still putting an email in the email field and nobody else does that here unless they WANT to exchange info

You honestly make it to easy fam, the only people who buy into that stuff is teenagers on the internet. Most business schools teach Kenysian economics which utilizes state infrastructure to control aggregate demand. That is to say all total demand in a given market.
As far as anarcho-capitalism is concerned, it goes completely against basic economics since capitalism NEEDS the state to enforce property contracts and the ruling class (the people that own property) uses the state for their own needs and purposes. Sure taxation is theft but when you control the state you don't even have to pay taxes anymore. The thing I don't get about ANCAPs is that you deny even capitalist economics for your ideology to work. It's an oxymoron

How are orphanages profitable?

And who owns the orphanage?

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PRESENTING: For Profit Private Orphanages [FPPO]

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yeah, but he got rid of the like/dislike video on youtube anyway

*like/dislike bar

wtf is this


Tim and Eric

nope, it's Check It Out! with Dr. Steve Brule

DON'T SHIT TALK MY IDEOLOGY… Unless you have a valid point to make against it.

I'm now 20 years old, so not exactly a teenager. Beyond the anecdotes, citation needed. Even if it were true it would be red herring, however.

Citation needed once again. Milton Friedman, for one, was not a Keynesian, and he won a Nobel Prize for his economic theories.

If private property contracts are desirable, there would be no need to coerce people into funding an organization which upholds private property rights.

In what sense are they a "ruling class"? The only power they have is over their own private property. They cannot legitimately coerce people into doing anything (well, without the help of the state, at least.)

Answer this question first

here we go

Because people want children, and some people are either infertile, gay, or simply don't want to contribute to population growth. If people just end up abandoning their children and nobody wants to pay to adopt children, or paying is insufficient, charity could easily cover this issue. If not, then I guess people just don't care about children, and people wouldn't support orphanages in a democratic system, either.

Barack Obama won a Nobel Prize for his war theories.

Uh, idk. Some people are just degenerate ig?

how do you disprove this:

scientific proof of the LTV

So, basically nohow?

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what power does the state have that they lack

Is wearing a mask from BDSM fantasies on a youtube channel and scraping off Tefflon off pans for consumption considered degenerate in your culture?

That depends on how you answer this question: Would socialists living in an ancap society donate to charity? If not, you're the problem, not the system.

Nah, you're still a teenager.

Keynesianism is part of neoclassical theory btw.

Yeah, it would. The fact we exist is testament to the fact private property needs to be protected, or else it could be abolished by force.

Which is enough.

If they didn't have the state, there would be other means.

Honestly, read Stirner.

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He doesn't understand that the state keeps a monopoly on violence to protect porky property

The power to use violence

why can't i employ a private security force to secure my private property

And without the state they would just reinvent the state the way they did in the first goddamn place

I can give more sources, if you want.
That's just the first one I have bookmarked.

bad meme, misreading stirner makes you an ancap

Yeah, there's also that.
Long term, it's actually cheaper to have a state.

You understand the whole corpratism thing right? Doesn't it just really make you think that every instance of capitalism that has ever existed has truned into corpratism… hmmmm… its almost like… if you have a system with a tendency towards centralization… you end up with a violent state acting in the interests of the the capitalist class…. HMMMMMM….

Also why doesn't the same logic of "socialism doesn't work because it turned into totalitarianism and failure everytime" not work with "capitalism doesn't work because it turned into corpratism every time"?

sumthin sumthin muh nap

Meh I'm 23 and I still feel like I'm 18 sometimes. I've hard a huge change in ideology from 20 to 21 to 22. Your early 20s are formative years and you have yet made your mind up on certain ideological and political issues, all I'm saying is that you'll probably change your mind. Even still your brain doesn't fully develop until you're in your mid 20s

I attend a business college? Is that good enough? Also we were taught Milton Friedman as well but most corporate social ethics and HR classes completely deny that a business' only goal is serve profits to shareholders. Corporations also have a social responsibility to the public, which is what Keynes talked a little about.
What if the rich people fund it themselves? Every heard of private security companies?
What you are proposing is basically feudalism with a corporate aesthetic.
They can coerce you to work for a wage so you have to buy the commodities they sell which includes food, land, and water. All necessities for life but you think we have to pay for them or die.

literally why are you even here

That's a pretty neat trick I will use in my future debates, mr. Ancap.

In any case. We saw your vids and we saw that your family is poor. You have our sympathies. Do you think that capitalism serves your mom's interests as a single earner in the family?

>when your proposed regime is so in line with human nature that people not following it simply have bad human nature
you golden

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Cause rightards can't into basic economics like value and commodity production. Why are you even here?

False. This is called capitalist apologetics or simply marketing the free market.


Capitalism is a system of impersonal forces out of the control of any individual. Read Marx.

an essential part of being an ancap is to never read Marx yet have grandstanding opinions about all of his works while lambasting socialist thought

Since you are all grown up and shiet, I have a question for you: so have you fingered a lady yet? Did she like that little extra your nails put into the equation?

Random question since you study it, how do I into economy for brainlets? It's definitely my weakest point when arguing with non-socialists.
Preferably some book/study guide from a Marxist point of view (duh) but which also highlights the differences with classical economy since I don't know too much about that either. (I've read wage labour & capital but I don't feel I really grasped a lot of economical insight from it)

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At first not but then he put her at ease by singing the "I love you" song in the video he deleted and she orgasmed from hearing it. Albert Einstein and Genghis Khan then came in and applauded. burp

Yeah, but I've seen enough Marxist-liberals that I think you can misread anything at this point. If he doesn't pick up on the fact that property isn't "free" from power relations or the NAP is garbage, then there probably was no hope for him.

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will he delete every video he made if we make fun of them one by one?


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No, the fact that you exist is a testament to the fact that in a stateless society, you'd implement socialist economic models rather than capitalist ones.

"In what sense are they a "ruling class"? The only power they have is over their own private property."
Oh, the poor property. Would somebody think of the property?!

I fail to see how having control over property makes you a member of some kind of ruling class. Literally everyone owns themselves. If they did not, there'd be no problem with slavery, because slaves would not be rightful owners of their bodies to begin with.

"They cannot legitimately coerce people into doing anything (well, without the help of the state, at least.)"
The key word here is "legitimately". If someone's right to self-ownership is being violated, they'd be in the right to defend themselves (and guns would be commonplace without so many restrictions on them).

Will do.

The real world?

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based, now go read lenin

this dualism is disgusting. you don't 'own' yourself. You are yourself.

why the fascination with lemons?

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There is a difference between personal property and private property. Your body is useless for other people. However, if you own the only bakery in town, people are reliant to get the bread from you. That's power. Also, if you want to differentiate between quotes from two different people on an imageboard, do it like

Those sentences you quoted were overly dramatic to the point that they took away from what I was trying to say, tbh.
I might have overstated my claim, and I think my willingness to do so might be linked to my American bias. I think it's safe to say that everyone here believes the bootstraps myth. They either think that people can pull themselves up by their bootstraps now, or that they'll be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps after some reforms. They uniformly have faith in markets as well. They aren't all waiting to become ancaps, true, but it's not hard to get them to sign on to deregulatory agendas or support libertarians, and ancaps isn't so much of a leap from there. All they have to do to be convinced by ancaps is put more faith in their naive individualism and faith in markets.
Lots of Americans are racist as shit. They sperg out when they see interracial couples in cereal commercials, and they tell their friends not to buy from businesses owned by white people. We dehumanize everyone that we fight, and we fight almost everyone.
So do I think people in general and Americans more specifically are on the brink of becoming literal Nazis and ancaps? No. Would I be surprised if a new far-right ideology popped up in the US? Probably not. Do I think currently existing far right ideologies simply extend people's currently existing beliefs about the world while leftist politics contradict those same beliefs? Definitely.
I dunno lol

I fail to see how you cannot both own and be yourself. How is that at all self-contradictory?

Also, no offense dude, but you seem to be a person who has been fucked over by capitalism. I dont know why you support a system that beats you up over and over.

Please, read Lenin

So what if we seize power in your ancap society and manage to implement a socialist model? Which shouldn't be too hard if there's no state protection of the private property.
If someone monopolizes a certain sector of private property, which isn't prevented by anything under capitalism, people are dependent on them. Which means they have power.
Also this so much:
You're a materialist in the bad sense of the word.

I hope this guy is gonna be the next Holla Forums meme. Honestly if BO gives us a lemony mushroom gang flag, I'll forgive him anything he may have done wrong.

What is property? marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/property/index.htm

This is a car. I am not a car.
This is my car, I own it, you don't. I'm the one who exclusively can use this car.

This is my body. I am my body. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is my body, you can not own it, you can not control it, because your body is yours, mine is mine, and there's no hopping in and out of our bodies like with cars.

In what sense do I "own" my body? It is completely redundant to say, for instance, that "this car's body constitutes the car. this car owns itself."

I, for one, hope that we can keep him as our mascot. At least he has the balls to come here and talk in good faith, which is more than Esoteric Entity would ever do.

I would honestly love to see respected economist Paul Cockshott engage in debate with a furry youtuber.

Well they call it corporate social responsibility but it is capitalist apologetics. Richard Wolf talks about this.youtube.com/watch?v=bXyAozjPZsE&t=1s
It's just that most people realize nowadays you have to at least keep the veneer of social ethics to cover the fact that corporation essentially exploit

Tell them that while an economy is made up of supply and demand, it is also determined by labor and production which essentially creates value while S&D reflect price variations determined by the market. If you want to learn a bit more about BASIC ECONOMICS I definitely recommend the classics like Adam Smith (read the condensed version the original is over 700 pages) and David Ricardo. Marx derives a lot of his class theories from these two men and other classical liberal economists.
This is where the Georgists get the social rent concept from, which was basically proto-socialism.Marxism is more of a ruthless critique of the political economic post-industrial revolution. A lot has changed since then and capitalism has become integrated in the state, culture, and society as a whole.

The highest stage, specifically. It has a nice explanation of how from the "free market" current day capitalism evolved completely naturally, following capitalism's rules, and not due to some outside corruption.

Don't make Cockshott sit through this. Don't send him the video (some autist probably already did). Seeing this abyss would probably seriously discourage him.

No, it is not, because anyone can build their own bakery if they have the desire, time, and energy like the first person did. To take the bakery from the person who rightfully owns it would be a disservice to the people who built it, who were only willing to do so in exchange for what the owner gave them. If you want people to build your bakery for you, they will likely want something in return, just like what the first person offered.

Respect to the dude for that. I would also be thrilled if we'd actually manage to persuade him.

Also forgot these
sry for dp

You forgot money

Where would you build it? On top of your house?

this upsets the ancap

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So I have to feed my kids, pay the rent, electricity, fuel, food, etc. so I need a full time job. I have the desire to build my own bakery. I do not have the funds to buy the property. Option A) I get a loan, and hope I'm not in the 80% of capitalists businesses that go bankrupt in the first 4 years. If I am, I'm eternally fucked. B) I work for 30 years, saving like crazy. I just have the money to start a cozy little bakery. If I'm no in the above mention 80% I'm actually gonna make it and my kids might not inherit my loans but my family bakery.

You made it sound much easier. Almost as if you were listening to people who came from a class backround unlike yours, like Trump receiving a few million from daddy, being able to open 20 bakeries at once.

But I guess Trump deserved it, because he worked so hard to be born into the right family.

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Realistically, this is true only for the beginning of capitalism and commodity production. Over time, the competition of the free market will yield a winner, who will continue to accumulate capital, who will be more and more dislodged from the actual production process.

That's not bad per se - but after a few years, it's very likely that the only bakery in town also owns the saw mill required to get the wood for another bakery. "Free market" is not really an economical term, it's an ideological one. How can a market be free if market participants have insane differences in their amount of market influence?

This is all related to commodity production and the money form, where you accumulate money to reinvest it, and grow. In feudalism, there was no money, and people would barter with the baker, so he got no means to reinvest into his business and expand it.

Because I recognize that it's not capitalism that is responsible for my problems, and I'd be better off in a capitalist society than any alternative.

You can implement socialist economic policies on your own justly acquired property (which would be communal property in this case, I presume).

Private protection is incumbent on the armed masses. It would be superior to state protection.

Like I said, monopolies don't just pop up out of nowhere. The real question is what's stopping you from becoming the competition?

If owning myself makes me a materialist, then I have no problem being called a materialist.

Dude, be honest now. Are you gay? Do you realize what a shit time you are going to have on the right wing?

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Thanks my dude, I'll look into these. Is that Iron Fist pdf a good starting place?

If every instance of capitalism has turned into crony capitalism doesn't that mean capitalism doesn't work?

Says who? Who's saying what just and whats not without a court system, police and the whole shebang. You're reinventing the state AGAIN.


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the very first fucking line


Natural resources can't be owned, since man did not create them. I don't see how one person could possibly own every single saw mill in existence, or even how every potential saw mill could be owned in one instance.

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fucking imbecile

Have you ever considered that not all right wing ideologies are necessarily culturally conservative?

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It's a short and simple read, I'd say so for a starting point less than 30 pages. Dowd is more in-depth but he gives a real good overview of the political economy in a more modern language than orthodox Marxism.

I think you underestimate how much influence the mode of production, the social relations caused by it, and the alienation caused by it, has on literally everything in your life. You'd need years of therapy to even slightly diminish the effects that capitalist alienation and reification has on someone. Only in communism humans can be truly experiencing their species essence, The reason you don't recognize capitalism as the source of your problems is because you reproduce it every day. Social relations, like the relation to other human beings, to commodities and to your own labor seem "normal" for you because you don't realize how you are living in a specific historical horizon, and like other historical phenomena, capitalism can be crushed and replaced by something else.

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Can your anus be owned by an erect cock? Because you won't find your dear Hans in ancap communities, that's for sure.

So If I buy land I don't own them? What are you fucking retarded?

Alright, good to know. Will read both when i have the time

Honey, seriously? Milo was fuckable and cute. You are awkward and have claws. Even Milo was barely tolerated. You need some serious help with your faggotry if you don't want your poopoo hole go sour.

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you must love early Marx i do too

Are you implying the two would peacefully coexist, because that's never going to happen.

Do you think property lives in a bubble that affects nothing outside of it?
Please, don't be naive. If you own everything in town, of course you have power over the lives of people that are reliant on what is produced on your property.

There's a difference between the relations of production, and you owning yourself. We discern the difference between property on which the capitalist can extract surplus value from your labor, and property that is of a personal nature. The capitalist has conflated these two and called them all private property, not recognizing the difference.

How do you define what is legitimate or not?
Some NAP?

Who enforces these rights? Why wouldn't the capitalist just do away with those rights and make himself arbiter of what is "right"? The very structure of capitalism is coercive, but that considered "legitimate" coercion. It's arbitrary.

What's a private pond, a mine, a private forest, private airspace, private …?

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Do you even know what you espouse?

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Well, late Marx shows you how really fucking dumb capitalism is, but early Marx shows you how really fucking despicable capitalism is.

Are you retarded? Do you understand the first thing about the ancap concept of property ownership, that it is self-determination and labor that makes property and not simple decree? If you can't BUY land to begin with, obviously you don't OWN land.

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That's actually a nice way of putting it.

Would all property be revoked in the transition to ancapistan?

Non-existent in an ancap society.

But that's literally what's happening all the time? How the fuck can you deny that?
Actually one of capitalism's problems is that it makes even the most basic natural resources like water into commodities.

What the fuck

Alright, this would be true for 17th century North America or something. But today, land is already owned. How are you going to redistribute land based on homesteading? Are you going to look into medieval church records to check out who drained a swamp or what? That would be the biggest autistic redistribution I could imagine.

Where do I put my lemon stand? If you are going to say "wherever you want/wherever there's space left" I'm going to laugh myself to death.

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Are you going to seize all that private land?

"Property" that isn't really legitimate property, yes. Factories and whatnot would remain, obviously.

Let me rephrase that: Natural resources can't be LEGITIMATELY owned.

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You realize that's not capitalism then, right? Capitalism literally came about by driving people off their communal land and privatizing it.

So what stops me from shitting on your family's carpet?
What stops me from shitting on your family's carpet if I've more money and a better contract with a better private police force?

You're saying that the labourers should collectively own the factory? This is the first time I've heard an ancap say this.

Have fun dying.


If they paid for it, yes. All I care about is that transactions are voluntary. If the factory builders want to give the factory to one person or a group of people, that's their choice to make.

Again who is deciding what is legitimately owned? If you say you own something and I disagree who is right?

where do I even start with this?
so firstly how will you guarantee that? Anyone can take the property they want, but not when it's a forest or lake? Secondly are you aware of the extent of "natural resources"? How will a capitalist economy work without private ownership and exploitation of resources?

Christ, that's so utopic.
What's stopping the capitalist "self-determining" for himself what is his property through monetary exchange and what isn't?

Are you going to take away (and if so with whom) all the currently privately owned resources? Where are you going to give it? Don't tell me that after we've kicked out the currently monopolistic companies from their oil wells its a free-for-all, because if people understand the rules you are proposing it would mean that they'd go there armed and have a fucking bloodbath.

Did humans build the carpet? Answer that, then I'll get back to you.

So the construction workers that built the factory and the laborers who work within it should have joint ownership over the factory? You're starting to sound like a pinko to me.

So I can shit on your lawn then? Your pond next to your house you use for fishing with your family? Can I dump my garbage in there?

What's the expiration rate on this rules of yours? Say for instance there's a 20.000 years old rug that it is just about to dissolve back into nature but it is yet still a bit recognizable as a carpet… can I take a dump on it?

By the way dude, there is an AnCap board on this website:
Not sure they would agree with you, especially in regards to your claim that land can't be owned.

Yeah, of all the ancaps I've ever seen, not one has made that claim.

They will most likely love to have a gay ancap on 8ch.

my dream collab


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Well, that's a different question, one dealing with the manner in which property rights would be enforced. The answer is guns. Everybody has them. Not just private cops. It's not like today's system where you HAVE to wait on the police to get anything done in order to be compliant with the law. Realistically speaking, you can't just go out shooting people over trivial shit without facing consequences from the rest of society, so what would likely happen is they would take you to some private inspection agency/court and determine the truth about what you did, publish that information, and advise what further action should be taken, likely a fine in this case.

Can I take up a piece of coal from the ground and burn it?

if yes: can I take up 30k tons of coal and burn it?

yeah, most of them support hyper conservative social policy, and often use crypto-fascist talking points. Often you notice them holding back on going full 1488.

Anyway, what does say to a scenario where a business decidedly excludes gay people? Like Chick-fil-A does?

literally the state

my dude, what ancap theory have you been reading? this doesn't make any sense

How will you redistribute land without a state comrade.

Another win for anarcho crapitalism

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No, I'm all for guns but depending on where you live some people to about half the population owns firearms (that is if you live in Southern USA like I do)
Literally the criminal justice system which is a main part of the state that enforces laws like property contracts

What does a gay dude singing about little girls in a costume want to do with fucking guns? I bet 10 bucks you don't have a gun. Don't take this the wrong way: as a socialist I'm absolutely for the proletariat owning guns, you just don't seem the type.

I don't know about burning coal, but I definitely would like to drill some oil.

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I'm an ancap in that I don't believe the state should exist, and that voluntary institutions should replace it. The rest of what I believe is a little more nuanced than that, and I don't claim to represent all ancaps.

How? Where is there mention of a monopoly on the legitimate use of force?

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when you said that disputes would be handled by

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I heard this thing called "uranium" is the next hip thing!

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but there could be many competing agencys and people would mutually agree to go to court and accept the verdict because violence is expensive and not fun.

Just to clear things up, I'm not ACTUALLY gay, I just realize that wearing a pink bunny mask and singing along to a Poppy song looks pretty gay. As for your question, they should be allowed to do that, and I should be allowed to boycott them.

Simply going to a trusted organization to ensure that nobody thinks you're a psycho accusing people of shitting on their carpets as a justification for theft isn't a product of the state. It's not one institution, it's a plurality of them among different organizations that offer different solutions to the same problems.

Anyhow, I'm off to go make myself some lemony shrooms and get high off Capitalism™. Thanks for the convo. Later.

I noticed you are a big "Poppy" fan. You do realize that her whole channel, including the song you so fabulously covered, is actually ironic commentary on capitalist consumerism through a completely hollowed out character that she portrays, right?
Check out our late stage capitalism thread if you'll have the time after your folk from >>>/liberty/ told you you'll be gassed for being gay:

also: use the catalog (bottom of the screen)

It's ok if you're gay.
A ton of people here are gay.


You are not fooling us, fam. You are a complete degenerate in the eyes of your hero's. No need to hide here the fact that you like acting gay here.

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why is your "trusted" organization better than my "trusted" organization
how does this even work in your mind? what organization would they go to if they had a dispute?
you should stick around and read lenin you nigger


You received more attention here in an hour than on your completely deserted channel in a year. Don't tell us you didn't enjoy it immensely, you beautiful *burp* lemoney faggot!

Two people have a dispute, The two people go to a private court who is popular for their objectivity and finish their dispute. It could also happen between right enforcement agencys.

make sure to scrap that teflon hard with your fork

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A private court that is popular and a less popular court have a dispute. Where do they go?

To the supreme private appellate court

They don't. You only go to one court and agree to deal with the results.

What guarantee is there that the judge can't be bribed?

Why would you go to a judge that was known for being unobjective and easily bribed? What stops you from bribing a normal judge?

I hope someone rides his ass about this.

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because all of them are unobjective and easily bribed, but this one is slightly less.

The state

One judge could make a ton of money by being honest. Most people would rather go to one who is honest than one who is not.

Also, why wouldn't I go to a judge I can easily bribe?
What's stopping the market for easily bribed judges taking over?

If I can get a judge to agree with everything I say, why wouldn't I just do that?

What a thread, comrades. What a thread. Gotta go catch some Z's.


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10/10 thread. I hope lemon user will join us again in the future.

can't make this shit up

le monkey

lmao the only one they don't respond to

EE said he would make a video on it :^)

Probably will be of the same quality I’m guessing

Did Esoteric just go full Georgist Gang?

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Furry ancap autist with less than 1k subs on his youtube channel makes videos on economics and political theory without reading on the subject of his videos (seriously how come so many right wing youtubers thinks they can make respectable critics of the LTV without even reading capital).
Why are we giving this disgracefull shit thing any attention?
This shit is just gonna kill himself someday or another, no way he can cope with his miserable existance till he dies a normal death.

This shit right here is why I don't get why they think they can call anyone else religous. LTV at its core is pretty easily formulated in an empiricallly falsifiable way. Trying to snake your way out of the need for falsifiability by claiming something is "axiomatic" is fucking retarded. The existence of atoms is essentially axiomatic for modern chemistry, but that still means that that the idea of atoms need to be falsifiable to have any merit.

On that mises article, LTV operates on the average socially necessary labour time. It's not trying to determine exchange values by how hard or how much effort is put into work.

Here is this guy debating some MLs if anyone hasn't seen it before



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For the sake of argument, if jews own all the banks and politicians, corporations, NGOs, etc., etc., …, how would they benefit from a stateless, classless society where the means of production are owned collectively by the people? I cannot see how. Also lulzy pic.

Correct response.

If it hadn't been true it would have been edgier than Sonic the Hedgehog running to a Mises conference in a fedora.

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Gotta privatize everything, including the toothbrush

Don’t give them more ideas for YouTube channels.

Milton Friedman used to be a Keynesian early in his career. Even late in his career, he retained in his outlook a bit that was very Keynesian, in that he wasn't hysterical about big deficits. I don't think mentioning one guy who got that prize is such a great argument for the correctness of this or that view, a list of all people who got that prize doesn't return one world-view, it includes Elinor Ostrom and Leonid Kantorovich.

Ancaps and free market capitalists have a immaterial world view and try to apply it to the real world. They really believe that reality is subjective and believe in subjective idealism. It’s ahistorical because it’s immaterial. They see socialism is bad because it create sin (sloth and greed). They don’t see socialism as a material thing either. It’s the belief in socialism that created famines. They can only see it in a vacuum separate from everything. Even then, thief definition of capitalism has nothing to do with capitalism. It only seen as voluntary exchange which
A. Voluntary is abstract and based upon perception
B. Exchange is nothing unique to capitalism
C. Voluntary exchange can exist to anarcho communism just as easily.

I stopped debating these people because they simply reject reality.

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leftypol cant econ101: the thread

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Boy get on out of here with that "legitimately" shiy
If I tie you down and start raping your ass, it doesn't really matter if it's "legitimate" because I still got what I wanted out of it.
We live in a dog eat dog world nigger

what if my organization disagrees with yours?, how decides who is right?, do multiple organizations exist in the same place, or are they local monopolies?, if the answer to the first question is one oranization would, then how are they going to enforce their decisions?, what if i disagree with them and use violence against them?, is it perhabs by using force that they will retaliate?, and if the answer to the question is that they battle it out, then what is stopping the most powerful person from violating property right?

Economics class is literally a propaganda class, otherwise business class would be superfluous.

You're not completely wrong though, they usually don't tell you in econ101 that mainstream economics isn't even a soft science so how would you know?

The problem with subjective theory of value is that it sees colors and food as the same. Subjective theory of value can work with colors because it’s abstract. Ten people wanting red and five people wanting blue can tell you which color is preferred. But, colors are abstract and immaterial. It does not need labor time. Food on the other hand cannot be treated the same way. Food is produced and had labor time. It materially exists. You can compare red and blue but not the same as a grain of rice vs a Ship.

What happened to the marketplace of ideas, Holla Forumsyp?

Subjective theory of value sees weight as “lightness” vs “Heaviness”

Labor theory of value sees weight as pounds or kilograms. It doesn’t matter if something feels light or heavy to you. The weight stays the same.

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That reds like a shit New Testament parable designed for the modern age. Tell us what you mean by it, or stfu, Jesus.

Weight is subjective because some people can life an object and feel it as heavy while others feel it as light.
Speed is subjective because some can see things go fast while others see things slow
Temperature is subjective because some people see things as hot while others see things as cold.
People planning to create a spacecraft is impossible and will fail because you can’t know people’s perception of these things. There is a calculation problem.

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That's not what we mean at all moron.

I-is this Lemoney? I'm not talking to you until you post pic with timestamp.



Two things can weigh the same through pounds. The weight is determined by gravity. Five things can equal to ten things through pounds. Through an outside source. It doesn’t matter if you perceive it to be heavy or not. Through the weight changes due to different forces of gravity.

Goods aren’t in a vacuum. The come into existence through labor. Labor transforms matter into other things. This labor take time. In an hour, five of one good is produced while ten of another good are produced. The rate of things that come into existence comes from the time in which things are produced.
The problem with subjective value is that it is immaterial. Goods have a relation the matter the same way weight does to gravity.

wtf my sage, damn it Holla Forums

post pic+timestamp Lemoney. Until then, no discussions.

Are you trying to relate LTV to Supply and Demand?

I’m not him. I’ve been defending ltv

I’m relating it to how value is objective. Weight is objective because it is in relation to matter. It doesn’t matter if you think it is heavy or light, it’s still the same weight. The same goes for value. Goods are not devoid of material. It is material. The material comes into existence through labor which takes time. There is only a limited amount of production that can be done within an hour. This creates the objective value. It also explains exploitation because if you csn only produce X amount in an hour, under capitalism you must be paid less than that good is sold for in that hour. Meaning you cannot but all the goods you directly or indirectly made. Though that is a bit simplistic sense labor is a mass effort, you still see the point.

Okay but a plane takes a year to make, and cookies take minutes to make.
There are more cookies in the world than planes, does LTV relate to supply and demand because I'm getting that off your explanation.

Of course. The rate in which goods are produced and tied to supply. Demand is too because it in relation to production of goods.

Sorry if my post sounds autistic. I’m on my phone.

That's really fucking gay dude but I guess it's true.

Your last image has fundamentally shaken my political beliefs.


It speaks volumes about you if you are not swayed by arguments and critical remarks but by what picture is painted about you. It means that you follow what looks cool because you want to be cool instead of "seeking truth" – an expression worn down by flag related.

Or that my fundamental emotional disposition so colors my basic assumptions about the world that it flings me towards a political extreme. There's no objective truth to be found in the political realm. There's trade-offs which are going to be balanced by one's own perspective.

You're the embodiment of the /r9k/ under dweller turned smuggy, bitter cunt because you can't tread the economic water. I just don't give a fuck that you're drowning and thanks for reminding why.

So basically you're an edgy nihilist that came here to start a fight?

I thought I had a genuine insight then you reminded me how much of a bag of shallow cunts humanity is.

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Yeah, lemme guess, you're the type who goes around thinking you're smarter, better, more "with it" than anybody else. You seem like the type of dude who watches a lot of South Park.

Nice work. But I think he removed it already. You can check by using incognito mode.

yes, please, save me, ancap Jesus!

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