Intentionalism vs Functionalism

Juan Perry
Juan Perry

When it comes to the Holocaust, which position is more correct according to you? Intentionalists believe the nazis had planned to kill their political/racial etc enemies from the start, while functionalists think they didn't plant to, but as the war carried on, amidst bueraucratic complications they found themselves in a blind alley and then decided to kill them

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independent.co.uk/voices/jordan-peterson-clinical-psychologist-canada-popularity-convincing-why-left-wing-alt-right-cathy-a8208301.html

Angel James
Angel James

Why the fuck should I care.
Hitler offered multiple times to export Jews but he still had millions in Europe so he killed them, historically it's undeniably functionalism. Drumpf will probably do the same once the orange retard realizes he can't just deport 20 million people, and will probably genocide them.

Logan Wood
Logan Wood

literally who cares. the holocaust isnt even the worst genocide europeans have done its just the worst genocide europeans have done to other europeans in europe.

Ian Ross
Ian Ross

This.
Don't bump the thread.

Justin Cox
Justin Cox

Trump wouldn't do that even if he could. Who would allow him to do something so fucked up? And to all the othet retards itt stop being such a bunch of cocksuckers "loL muH HoLocAusT isnT baD :Dddd cocksuckers

Jonathan Morris
Jonathan Morris

They executed them even at the start of the war, and they had plans to colonize all of the slavic lands.

Nolan Smith
Nolan Smith

Intentionalism obviously ffs just read mein kampf

Connor Russell
Connor Russell

Ignore quote

Easton Bennett
Easton Bennett

Intentionalism, but it doesn't matter because Hitler could have literally wrote down "We must unironically kill them all, 100% serious guys, literal death" and his fanboys would still say it was all metaphorical or a forgery or a forced confession retroactively extracted from his ghost after the war or whatever the fuck else.

Aiden Murphy
Aiden Murphy

This, even if the nazis as one collective didn't plan on killing their enemies from the beginning, Hitler definitely did

Noah Robinson
Noah Robinson

germans
european
Lol, whiter than you Fritz.

Aaron Reyes
Aaron Reyes

Drumpf will be like Hitler lol
Trump is just another neo-liberal, albeit one thats more direct and open about it. If he had kept his mouth shut and talked only when needed like every president before him, you would be hard pressed to find a difference.
Wasn't the whole extermination idea more of a Himmler thing?

Hudson Wood
Hudson Wood

That's a misrepresentation of the intentionalism vs. functionalism debate. The core disagreement between the two sides of the debate is whether the Holocaust was mostly carried out on the basis of direct orders formulated by high-ranking officials or of initiatives undertaken by the rank-and-file. Whether the Holocaust was the result of a decades-old plan or of cumulative radicalization is a function of that.

The reality is mostly a mix of both though tending towards functionalism in most cases. What often happened is the hierarchy issued vague orders that rewarded speculation and the rank-and-file (including entire departments) competed to "interpret" them "properly", outdoing each other in the process.

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Hudson Brooks
Hudson Brooks

Isn't this a bit like the Zizek-bit about the guy who suspects his wife is cheating on him?

Even if they only leapt into extermination out of a perverse kind of necessity, the underlying pathology was still genocidal antisemitism, and they were happy for the excuse.

Asher Thomas
Asher Thomas

What's that bit about Zizek? I've never heard of that before

Ethan Lewis
Ethan Lewis

’Holocaust denial is retarded’
denies the holomodor

Julian Sanders
Julian Sanders

I don't remember the original lecture I saw it in, but it was referenced by him in the recent Zizek-Peterson hubub.
independent.co.uk/voices/jordan-peterson-clinical-psychologist-canada-popularity-convincing-why-left-wing-alt-right-cathy-a8208301.html

Charles Lewis
Charles Lewis

Holodomor is "denied" even by anti-communists like Robert Conquest or Solzhenitsyn. Denial in the sense that the famine in Ukraine was not a deliberate genocide. Nobody actually denies that the famine itself never happened, not even the most insane ☭TANKIE☭s. People just attribute it to different reasons.

Nolan Roberts
Nolan Roberts

implying that the Holodomor isn’t a fascist myth spread by people complicit in the Holocaust
Wew but I shouldn’t be surprised based on the flag

Elijah Ramirez
Elijah Ramirez

the holocaust isnt even the worst genocide europeans have done
Point to a genocide that Europeans have done that is both worse in absolute size, percentage of population killed and similar in time-span hard mode: no Belgian Congo

Daniel Scott
Daniel Scott

Belgian slave-driving in the Congo wasn't a genocide, though.

Aiden Parker
Aiden Parker

conquest
No, he writes that it was certainly deliberate, and possibly qualifies as a genocide.
solzhenitsyn
No, he claims that the famine was engineered, but did not deliberately target Ukrainians, as it also killed other ethnicities.

Jacob Myers
Jacob Myers

True, but its arguably the only comparable democide afaik

Jaxson Nguyen
Jaxson Nguyen

The Holocaust was the inevitable outcome of an ideology based on an organic conception of nationalism – with race and nation inexorably bound up together. Jews were considered by Nazis to be parasites that had to be purged from the nation like a body would purge itself of toxins.

Adrian Young
Adrian Young

You can probably find areas where this happened during the European wars of religion. All the war and famine blurs the lines a bit, but nevertheless certain regions were virtually depopulated with sectarian justifications.

Oliver Moore
Oliver Moore

deliberate extermination vs deliberate enslavement + ditching them to their fate as the war turned against the Nazis, and starvation and typhoid started to spread after Allied bombing
Not the most spirited debate.

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Jeremiah Brooks
Jeremiah Brooks

No side of the debate claims there was no genocidal process of organized mass slaughter going on. What the debate is about is the genocide's origin, how it came to be. Both intentionalists and functionalists would deny that the Jews were merely the victims of criminal negligence.

So the debate is actually more along the lines of whom the initiative originated with: influential Nazi officials at the top, or rank-and-file bureaucracy at the bottom?

Not exactly any funnier, though.

Kevin Robinson
Kevin Robinson

It is my view that the Holocaust was ordered, in light of the failure to take Stalingrad, because the Nazi government did not want a future German government to suffer from war indemnity for the Nazi regime's labor camps. In doing so, the Nazis hedged their bets against an allied victory.

In essence, by taking millions of undesirables and putting them into forced labor they were put on an unavoidable path (once German victory in WW2 was off the cards) to extermination. If Stalingrad was more successful then alternative but still barbaric schemes may have been devised along the speculative plans we already know.

Note that the modern German state has never had to pay reparations for a single Holocaust victim. They paid for the refugees that were resettled in Israel at the end of WW2, and that's it. Thus the Nazi's scheme, in the end game, worked. The millions of forced laborers Germany would have had to compensate otherwise would have bankrupted the fed. republic.

Hudson Jackson
Hudson Jackson

Note that the modern German state has never had to pay reparations for a single Holocaust victim. They paid for the refugees that were resettled in Israel at the end of WW2, and that's it.

Wait what?
that's fucking bullshit

Lincoln Nelson
Lincoln Nelson

Note that the modern German state has never had to pay reparations for a single Holocaust victim. They paid for the refugees that were resettled in Israel at the end of WW2, and that's it.
Nazi's basically got the separate Jewish ethnostate some of them always wanted while not having to pay much into it.
It's shit like this that makes conspiracies

Adrian Adams
Adrian Adams

It is my view that the Holocaust was ordered, in light of the failure to take Stalingrad
The Final Solution was ordered before the German defeat in Stalingrad, though — and the Einsatzgruppen started systematically killing Jews almost as soon as WWII was in full swing.

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