Intersectionality General. I'm sick and tired of all the nazbols, all the reactionaries, the Asserists and red sargonites. I grew up in the suburbs and was immersed in heavily white, male and toxic 4chan subcultures for years, were hating sjws was a given. Even after I convinced myself I was actually leftist and progressive, but still clung to anti 'idpol', to 'ironic' racism and to the systematic denial and minimization of my privilege. But I've realized I was wrong, I know nothing excuses what I did and I am very sorry for the pain I have caused to my marginalized comrades, women PoC, Lgbt, trans and nb people. I am just looking for resources that can help me deconstruct the systems of oppression I have internalized, I'm looking forward to learning about intersectionality and becoming a more empathetic person.
Intersectionality General. I'm sick and tired of all the nazbols, all the reactionaries...
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
lacan.com
twitter.com
Too faggoty, didn’t read
Check out Peggy McIntosh's talks, 'idpol' is ultimately just empathy and compassion, you are using irony to distance yourself from the very real conflicted feelings that come from your privileged position in society. You have to take a leap forward and integrate radical empathy and social justice into every aspect of your daily life.
youtube.com
>>>/plebbit/
Go be a faggot somewhere else. No one cares
in all fields
try telling that to poc and lgbt folks lol
Honest question:
Can ANYONE on this board provide a solid argument against intersectionality aside from the typical claims of: "it's liberal", "it detracts from class", "muh universalism" (intersectionality is universalist)? Because I don't see any.
Nice try Holla Forumsyp
If they’re being a faggot, then yeah, I’m going to tell them to go be a faggot somewhere else and that no one cares about there faggoty faggot ass.
I'm a straight white dude and it makes me feel uncomfortable
This thread
Appeal to emotion.
I was in fact parodying the 'anti-idpol' concern trolls in here, isn't it obvious marginalized people make them uncomfortable?
thats the point, we care.
...
this will be anchored but there's a valid point to it.
i mean my own position hasn't changed, which is to ignore "idpol" struggles for the most part because i'm simply not interested even if people have valid points to make, but the whole imageboard thing where it's a massive shibboleth is fucking stupid, and i'd rather be given funny looks for saying "non-white people" than deal with stupid imageboard dickheads who think you should go back to tumblr because you said "problematic" in a context relating to the use of inanimate objects.
Nazbol gang is actually the most intersectional organisation though, unless you're Jewish or a Sionista.
look at them, look at them go. dogs, jumping at the lever because pavlov said so. pathetic runts.
at least Tumblr would have one person who thinks they can give sass, rather than this trite bullshit gleaned from edgy 14 year olds.
Look at the sucdem jumping to support liberal feel good bullshit at every opportunity.
do you realize what is the suicide rate for lgbt people? what seems like 'feel good bullshit' to you, might literally be life saving for them. What seems like a harmless 'ironic' joke to you may literally KILL them
lmao fuck intersectionality. When I am world leader I'm going to pick a color off the color wheel and everyone is that and a hermaphrodite. I'm also banning facial features, and everyone will be five-ten. Only then can we have perfect society, free from opression.
I can't believe that I just BTFO basically everyone on Holla Forums I'm really smart.
Is it just me or are these bait/troll/shit posts more common now?
Holy GULAG, fuck socdems.
I'm a straight white guy and you make me uncomfortable.
Not only are they being willfully ignorant to the struggles of their fellow comrades, theyre denying themselves an entirely practical tool in the path to power.
Its cynical i know, im a firm and total believer in intersectionality and its effects/consequences , however i recognise liberals eat this shut up like its syrup. Theyre wrong in that as long as poverty and oppression is equal is fine rather than liberation, but slight changes in narrative works wonders.
God is real.
Yeah he's me faggot
OK, this has been fun, but this is just lazy trolling now
You're doing Satanism wrong faggot.
unlikely
actually i'm jumping in to make you and the other scummy little bugs in this hornet's nest feel bad. as i said, i don't actually care about reform. not my department. give me treasury, not home office, not women and equalities, not fucking digital, culture, media and sport.
are you telling me you're interested in what ageing economists have to say about the shipping industry?
because they have completely valid points. fascinating, really, really fascinating points about the economics of the transport industry. thing is, i've a sneaking suspicion you couldn't give the slightest fuck about them or their contextually valid points, because you're doing something else.
you take women and equalities, i'll take treasury, everyone wins. (except the blairites, who can take fucking digital, culture, jesus christ make it end and sport. if they want so much as enough money to buy a fucking t-shirt they'll have to do as I say, and I say ban 4chan.)
"it's boring"
but that argument only works on an individual level, so you apply the principle "first do no harm" and let the people who think it's fascinating get on with life.
yeah it's not like you are used to feeling uncomfortable
Fuck you, Tempe of bluv faggot. I’m the real god
God is not an object.
Only an idiotic follower of Satan would deny God.
A genuine Satanism consists in realizing the real consequences of opposition.
Nigger, you’re not going to shame anyone here into feeling bad.
t. sociopath who is unable to see his marginalized comrades as human
or into listening to reason
or into seriously posing an argument
or into being an empathetic human being
It promotes class collaboration and denies class being the primary factor that divides society and determines ones interests, thus opening up cracks which can be exploited by the capitalists to divide people. In addition it alienates vast swathes of the proletariat (white proles won’t join a movement that constantly tells them that they are evil), undermines the concept of abolishing race/gender and all too often veers into micro-nationalism and other reactionary tendencies. It’s also idealist as fuck and denies the material basis of social issues.
read LaVey dumbass
t. Guy who probably doesn’t really care and is attempting to slide the board for his own amusement
It's anti-material.
Sorry I don’t care about the oppression of Oprah or female ceos or obama. Your right, all out of empathy for them
Who fucking cares?
They are a reactionary people, get rid of them. Read Engels.
this is true about liberal idpol, ill grant you that. True, leftist intersectionaility however ackowledges not how white people are "evil", but how they have the best hand in capitalism, and even thats shit.
Again, im confused that i have to keep telling people this, but elimating class/capitalism/whatever thats true "evil" is not going to suddenly eliminate the past.
He is worthless.
holy shit my sides are in orbit
...
See this is the split between liberal idpol and intersectionality
They arent the same but the shit heads on this board strawman them into being the same
I dont care for oprah or obama either, but i acknowledge that to be where they are and have the "achievements" they have for someone of their ethnicity/gender is a feat itself.
Are you Satan Chan?
the best arguement so far has been and even then it makes a point of
I addressed that.
How does intersectionality promote class collaborationism when it does, in fact, take social class as a factor in oppression? Intersectionality is superior to the standard Marxist conception of class because it's more holistic and multi-dimensional.
I addressed that shit as well, and it doesn't hold. How do you plan on implementing communism with a racist, misogynistic proletariat? This shit is what happened in the USSR: race contradictions were never resolved, and as a result Russian chauvinism flourished.
i'd say there are more negative emotions than shame, but i did the fun exercise of imagining the little scrote on the other side of the computer screen and it hit me - here i was, going to type out a wonderful thing about how you're a /g/ using aquaphobe with long hair hunched over his thinkpad T430, the clicks of the keys as you bash it out - "N I G G E R", haha, I said it, that's what people on imageboards do.
Then it hit me. That's not who you are at all. No, I physically can't imagine it - because you're actually almost certainly what they call a bugman, and what I'd call a redditor. (Hey, old habits die hard.) I want to believe you're the pathetic kind of nerd because they were actually sufferable. You're of a quite different sort, the insufferable non-player character. You're probably right - I'll never make you feel bad, by shame or by any other mechanism, because you don't have feelings, except solidarity with your fellow background characters. Christ, at least Nurse Joy had 1 personality between her 9300 clones. Your lot, that's a specimen of quite a different sort.
look at him, "slide". just look at him. you just know he's typed "praise kek" before, but will now deny it. you just know, he believed gamergate was a serious cause. you just know, he takes the internet seriously.
but deep down, he believes he's the true successor of the imageboard tradition. it would be pathetic, if we had any reason to expect standards from inanimate objects.
In what ways?
The fact it can be used to justify liberalism is a testament to its strength, I guess
Nuh, fuck’em
you know what board youre on, right?
Damn nice one you really got me there.
Those two things are not similar. To look at a struggle and say "They're right" and to ignore them is disgusting. Non-radical purge WHEN
I'm not very uncomfortable ever, honestly. Still, fuck idpol.
If I didn't write a whole book about how merciful I am I'd totally smite you for your insolence. Have fun next time you need a green light, asshole.
Literally untrue. INB4 you cite an example of black people being disproportionately poor or some shit, as if that was any sort of racism and not just oppression.
so why are you ignoring the struggle of the trucking firm accountant?
Excuse me, care to tell me why you've done nothing to help the chagos islanders?
Sorry, I can't help but notice that you haven't spoken out about the UK university strike. Why is that?
Sorry, is there a reason you don't care about the Catalan independence struggle?
Wtf is this Reddit autism. Who let these people in here?
Sorry, but when are we going to consider the very real issue of deforestation in Brazil?
Seriously you are a dialectical mastermind never stop posting.
No but seriously kill yourself.
Not an argument.
Tell me how intersectionality is any different from the liberal variant. Why should my brown skin be repository for certain values?
You haven't said anything.
Want to know how I know your Reddit?
You literally just replied to a post of mine with multiple instances of me saying things. Do you think anyone will suspect God gave you this heart attack? Have fun, you've tested me for the least time.
nice try white dude. Internalized whiteness is a thing, you know. Many PoC, even outside of America, have been thought to identify with whiteness, which is why a comprehensive decolonial pedagogy is necessary.
whoa, he's so cool, look at him go.
bet i've been here longer than you, cool kid.
name 20 struggles you've done the slightest bit to help in.
i'll name for which 400 you've done sweet buggery, because surprise surprise there are 24 hours in a fucking day.
indeed why in the name of all that is holy are you arguing on this dead shithole of a board if you're so concerned about meaningfully helping anyone with anything? do you really think, do you really honestly think that you'll so much as mobilise one extra person into not being a massive cunt? even if you got 10, 20, 30, there are are other more efficient uses of time. while the chagos islanders remain homeless, you take the luxury of engaging in pretend arguments on a board for people who've had their minds poisoned by too long on the skinner box.
for shame.
because i'm going to point out you've said "your" instead of "you're", implying reddit belongs to me?
No, i will cite that, ill also cite
-Mass disparities in incarceration rates
-Suicide rates amongst LGBT+
-Entrenched racial inequality in the state
-Pay ceilings for PoC and women
-Pay GAPs for PoC and women
and many more. Granted, in work issues can be fixed by unionising, and policy issues are just that. But dont go thinking was you white mans guilt liberate the PoC from capitalism theyre suddenly gonna say "thank you massa" cus liklihood is, whitey is gonna be the scapegoat
Yeah, I know it’s a thing. And it’s also a vague as fuck term. It’s a fixation on a certain type of white person and taking that particular and applying it to the whole. But you know, I guess Franz Fanon was fucking white on the inside. That’s who I just quoted.
Your post was contentless.
It could only ever apply to the most degenerate and stupid manifestations of folk Christianity.
My point was you posted a giant wall of text speaking to the board rather then the person you were responding to like an autist. Keep in mind also I'm not the only one responding to you here.
Theres no Académie Française of anti-oppression language so its very easy for idpol to get bandied around when were talking about intersectionality, but as a leftist i would hope you would know the difference. This board always finds ways to astound and disappoint me.
Intersectionality has a firm base in Marxian economic theory unlike idpol, which is inequality for the poor. sociologists Du Bois and Collins have done works on the relation between being black in the economic sector, and paradigms of race class and nation, although i havent read them.
I wasn't replying to a person.
Pack it up boys, WeAreOnlyNothing on Reddit (the hypocrisy here is tragic btw) has told us what our term REALLY means, and we obviously have no fucking idea about it. You know hes right because hes got pre snarl Zizek as his profile picture
Wait OP you are doing it wrong. You have to shield yourself with ML language, otherwise you're just a lib :)
Seriously though, this board is filled to the brim with hopeless reactionaries. I mean look at this shit.
Its just rightist talking points thinly veiled in leftist terminology. By refusing to acknowledge the struggle of the oppressed instead of bringing them into socialism you drive them back into the all to willing arms of capitalists and liberals. They only disagree because they feel they must cow tow the old chan culture of being a cynical cunt. This is literally identity politics to its most cancerous extent.
Why the fuck do these dickheads use the word "folks" so much. It's infuriating.
bet your the sorta guy that throws a hissy fit when we say you should use preferred pronouns
Well, why don't you go talk to him on plebbit, then.
the standard social justice lexicon can be viewed as a great bottom up collective achievement, the composite of millions of critiques made by actual marginalized folks struggling to make their voices heard. But i'm sure random middle class white guys on imageboards know better than them.
Nope, literally sounds like the same hot garbage takes to me.
A shit ton of it relies on standpoint theory. You can use Marxist sounding words to cover it up, but I can’t find anything that grounds it any materialist conceptions. Marxist somehow managed to fight for black people without it anyway. You guys are trying to put legs on a snake.
This as well as an inbuilt guilt that, compared to others, theyre being benefitted by capitalism existing and think it would be hypocritical to recognise that and still be leftist
Not surprised
no, because i actually despise that website, unlike you who uses the term plebbit and yets cites it when hes losing the arguement
?
I didn't hear anything, and I cited more than just one effort post.
True, and in that case im right to make distinctions between idpol and intersectionality
Thats my arguement youve made for me
im ☭TANKIE☭st, i hate all of you and paint you all with the shit stained brush
PoC and Queers like it when white people use those terms, they let them know they are safe
No, it's just that bearded urbanite hipsters saying "Y'all" and "Folks" just makes my eyes roll out of my head.
wish i could read everything to win an imageboard arguement, but apparently we arent immortal so i have better things to do
You're a what now?
Not the guy you were responding to, but what the actual fuck are you talking about? If you don't see class as the core basis for all economic oppression, you aren't Marxist. Multiple Marxists have pointed this out in the past.
okay that corrected the text into whatever that is, i dislike ☭TANKIE☭s is what im saying
You’re the one acting like this shit is important to you.
Why don’t you actually trying to read it next time you fucking pseud
I do, and so does intersectionality. Its more nuanced than saying "its all to do with class", because its obviously not, capitalism is built off the back of oppression of PoC, and that legacy remains to this day
Is that supposed to be an argument? Is that how you """win""" an argument?
because im not actully citing the arguments, im making a point that smarter people than you or i have written ALOT about this, so dont act lie its a fringe liberal belief
not really, your ideology is just a trash fire and i want you to know that (:
do you not realise not everyone can read? why should neuroatypical folks be excluded from the left? because that's basically what you are saying, you are dehumanizing them and denying the value of their experience
There is a world outside of the Americas.
What good is that, other than an appeal to authority?
I could point you to people who have said the exact opposite, but it doesn’t add an ounce to my own arguments
Better oriented/more acceptable racial or ethnic aporia is still fundamentally contradictory.
READ VIVEK CHIBBER
see
yes which further to proves my point and reminds me of the massive thread a couple days ago
White estonians benefit off the west-european slave trade despite having nothing to do with it, why? Because they are white, and in the countries where that slave trade happened, they can thrive greater.
you could and you probably should, might change my view that everyone im arguing against is a middle-class white male scared to accept things
Your just living in your own world aren't you?
You are an ignorant cocksucker
Yeah, hot garbage
So English children working in coal mines was what? Or do they no longer count as white if they are covered in soot?
Arent we all?
In reality, my arguement is far more inclusive of PoC, women and LGBT+ comrades
big mood
Why is Carl the cuck posting here?
What's wrong with idealism?
OP, read this and then go away. Nobody gives a shit about particularisms
Stop. bad arguement. Obviously at the time value for life and working conditions was in the toilet, and THATS when you can make the arguement class is important. however NOW, 21st centruy, we have workers protection laws and other things that protect people from mistreatment, fought for by your Poc and LGBT comrades. thats why i say it was built of the back of slavery and oppression, it was far more lucrative for the state to engage in slavery, be it wage or racial.
...
But that's wrong. Labour was fought for by the working man, regardless of colour or creed. Piss off you revisionist.
Got to "toxic" and stopped reading.
No, explain it in your own words.
bait pls go
Cease with this
Are you a nazi/pol, are you "naziposter" or is that just your shitposting flag?
Go fuck yourself.
and its the working man now who is being oppressed, life is more nuanced than workers and boug. The black working man has to fight harder. The LGBT working-person has to fight harder. The women have to fight harder.
Live in the real world, bucko
Pretty convenient when you can extend the idea of white privilege from slave days to today, but you can’t do it with actual hardships those people faced. Whole project is inane and which worker ends up at the bottom of the heap as the underclass is a flip of the coin.
"The green people face a disporportionate level of hardship"
"HA, you must deny the struggle of the purple people!"
Why is it so hard to acknowlege the different levels of hardship that proles face? A homeless man and a middle class man are both proletarian but they have differing experiences of being such. This mirrors the experience of black slaves in America. Both the African slave and the white sharecropper are victims of the capitalist system, but one is far worse off. The ruling class stratified them with the Virginia Slave Codes. In order order to unite the working class you must equally proclaim the struggle of both.
Liberals using the word "nuance" to excuse the shittiness of their arguments need to have the teeth knocked out.
answer the point ya dick
Idealism isn't "feels over reals".
thats what white privilege is
Now? I'm sorry, but that's always been true. It isn't one but not the other, and it isn't greener on the other side. I don't see how a gay working man is worse off from a non-gay one, or how a female working man is worse off from a male working man. Maybe in America, but America sold their potential salvation for The New Deal.
this is why i hate your ideology
Gay people not only fight harder in the workplace against homophobia and such, but they fight hrder in life, the suicide rates amongst LGBT+ people is astronomical
You didn't make one. You got caught spewing bullshit, gave lip service to wage labour and reiterated the same bullshit, but this time said that it's PoC and LGBT that were responsible for the Labour Movement, which is also wrong.
I've never had to fight any harder, or fight at all.
Not him, but that aint an argument. Why, however, would somebody come to Holla Forums with a supposedly genuine question about intersectionality?
Well, now you've the burden of proving a correlation between the two
I know, and I’m telling you that you pick and choose to extend what particulars to the whole of white people. For instance your never going to prove the white privilege of a white poor person in the Appalachians benefits from some special privilege, because it’s all circumstantial. It’s useless in practice, aside from being practically useless.
Why do you categorize idealism as "feels over reals"? Do you know what you're talking about?
The point was for you to recognise white privelege exists, regardless of nationality.
...
Homophobia in the workplace and suicide rates amongst LGBT people are obviously correlated
t. internalized heterosexuality
i can take that, the theory however, at least i believe, i still sound
One, you need provide data - you can't claim self-evidence
Two, even with the correlation, it wouldn't extend to your extrapolations about necessary character for any randomized, constructed group.
Lastly, being that you cannot do such without an equally bound ideological edifice, or that which falls still within the capitalist register of meaning, it can also be assumed that you're not a leftist - you're an opportunistic orienteer who won't recognize the basic failures of positive assertions in this regard.
Fuck off, bud
Why when the whole thing comes down to circumstance?
Do you feel like you're contributing to a discourse yet?
Every. SINGLE. time. I shouldn't even take this bait but is it really a surprise that this shit really only appeals who had it good growing up and feel guilty about all the real and perceived advantages they've been given as members of the petit-bourgeoisie?
Did you make an argument? No.
It should go without saying that you can uphold Revolutionary liberationist or abolitionist politics without having to adhere to Liberal idpol things like
Having a problem with people who don't want to improve their praxis in anti colonial, anti-ableist or anti-sexist struggle isn't a bad thing. But you are in leftypol and not leftpol so expect that shit. Also, defend the catgirls
Material is an idea.
Health
Taken from Unhealthy Attitudes (2015) and The RaRE Research Report (2015), provided by Stonewall.
Even when checked into medical care,
A quarter (24 per cent) of patient-facing staff have heard colleagues make negative remarks about lesbian, gay or bi people
One in five (20 per cent) have heard similar disparaging remarks about trans people
Almost one in 10 (nine per cent) health and social care staff are aware of colleagues experiencing discrimination or poor treatment because they are trans
A quarter (26 per cent) of lesbian, gay and bi staff say they have personally experienced bullying or poor treatment from colleagues in the last five years as a result of their sexual orientation
Nearly half (48 per cent) of trans people under 26 said they had attempted suicide, and 30 per cent said they had done so in the past year, while 59 per cent said they had at least considered doing so
Hate crime
One in five LGBT people have experienced a hate crime or incident because of their sexual orientation and/or gender identity in the last 12 months
Two in five trans people have experienced a hate crime or incident because of their gender identity in the last 12 months
The number of LGB people who have experienced a hate crime or incident in the last year because of their sexual orientation has risen by 78 percent since 2013
Four in five LGBT people who have experienced a hate crime or incident didn’t report it to the police
One in ten LGBT people have experienced anti-LGBT abuse online directed towards them personally in the last month. This increases to one in four for trans people directly experiencing transphobic abuse online in the last month.
Taken from The Gay British Crime Survey (2013) and LGBT in Britain - Hate Crime (2017)
How the fuck is intersectionality class collaborationist? This fucking strawman needs to die.
At work
One in five (19 per cent) lesbian, gay and bi employees have experienced verbal bullying from colleagues, customers or service users because of their sexual orientation in the last five years
One in eight (13 per cent) lesbian, gay and bi employees would not feel confident reporting homophobic bullying in their workplace
A quarter (26 per cent) of lesbian, gay and bi workers are not at all open to colleagues about their sexual orientation
Nearly half (42 per cent) of trans people are not living permanently in their preferred gender role stated they are prevented from doing so because they fear it might threaten their employment status
Over 10 per cent of trans people experienced being verbally abused and six per cent were physically assaulted at work. As a consequence of harassment and bullying, a quarter of trans people will feel obliged to change their jobs
Taken from Gay in Britain (2013) and Engendered Penalities (2007)
Education
Nearly half (45 per cent) of LGBT pupils - including 64 per cent of trans pupils - are bullied for being LGBT in Britain's schools. This is down from 55 per cent of lesbian, gay and bi pupils who experienced bullying because of their sexual orientation in 2012 and 65 per cent in 2007
Half of LGBT pupils hear homophobic slurs 'frequently' or 'often' at school.
Seven in 10 LGBT pupils report that their school says that homophobic and biphobic bullying is wrong, up from half in 2012 and a quarter in 2007
However, just two in five LGBT pupils report that their schools say that transphobic bullying is wrong
Just one in five LGBT pupils have been taught about safe sex in relation to same-sex relationships
More than four in five trans young people have self-harmed, as have three in five lesbian, gay and bi young people who aren't trans
More than two in five trans young people have attempted to take their own life. as have one in five lesbian, gay and bi students who aren't trans
Taken from The School Report (2017) and The RaRE Research Report (2015)
International
72 countries criminalise same-sex relationships (and in 45 the law is applied to women as well as men)
The death penalty is either ‘allowed’, or evidence of its existence occurs, in 8 countries
In more than half the world, LGBT people may not be protected from discrimination by workplace law
Most governments deny trans people the right to legally change their name and gender from those that were assigned to them at birth
Between 2008 and 2014, there were 1,612 trans people were murdered across 62 countries - equivalent to a killing every two days
A quarter of the world’s population believes that being LGBT should be a crime
Taken from Stonewall's International Work and ILGA World (2016).
Sport
Seven in 10 football fans who've attended a match have heard or witnessed homophobia on the terraces
One in ten LGBT people (10 per cent) who attended a live sporting event in the last year experienced discrimination because of their sexual orientation and/or gender identity.
Three in five fans believe anti-gay abuse from fans dissuades gay professional players from coming out
Over half of football fans think the Football Association, the Premier League and the Football League are not doing enough to tackle anti-gay abuse
17 per cent of lesbian, gay, bi and trans people have experienced and 49 per cent have witnessed homophobia or transphobia in sport.
66 per cent of lesbian, gay, bi and trans people felt that there were problems with homophobia and transphobia in sport and that this acted as a barrier to LGBT people taking part.
One in eight LGBT people (12 per cent) avoid going to the gym or participating in sports groups because of fear of discrimination and harassment
Taken from Leagues Behind (2009), Out for Sport (2012) and LGBT in Britain - Hate Crime (2017)
ill take that as a "white privelege" doesnt exist then, which means you arent stupid, youre just a dick
please refer to parts two and three
Group A wants X and Group B wants Y. Group C will give group A X if they sell out group B. And there you have class collaboration.
this
So what is Mao's "all classes united against the imperialists" then?
Hezbollah are class-collaborationist and Shia idpolers but they are worthy of support only because they fight Israel? Please.
ain't and anyone still falling for this oughta know
fullcommunists and leftbookers are too elitist and conceited to waste time here
Zizek is a meme philosopher.
We should just turn this around from a bait thread to a proper discussion thread. Here we go
Holla Forums is primarily populated with leftists who in fact are against racism, sexism, homophobia etc, but be that as it may, our stance on how to tackle said issues is notably different to that of the liberals, who tend to promote minorities in popular culture and suppress those who belong to the dominant demographics. What, in your opinion, would be an effective way to support said minority proles and comrades?
Hezbollah are utter shit but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Supporting the PLO is where it's at m80
No, it's fucking useless to bring up, harmful to unity of the working class, and damaging to the cause of socialism.
From aaaaall of this, we can safely assume that, for the same low level corporate or whatever achievement a LGBT employee may make, theyve had significant hurdles to jump in comparison to their straight collegeuges. This isnt an assumption of charecter or personality on behalf of all gay people, rather it recognition that in the face of such adveristy and oppression, they maintain their individuality. Yet still they face push back amongst our circles, those you wouldve thought to be historically accepting, because they refuse to accept a straight male has it better off by birthright.
whatever you say bud
I'd love to hear your readings on his work, I'm sure it'd be illuminating - assuming you have and didn't just watch youtube videos
What do you mean?
Youve sacrificed any integrity by writing off all of social justice
Intersectional feminists are the enemies of capitalism. So why not side with them as well?
Precisely because that is an essentialism, which is derelict within communist philosophy
Intersectionality is anti-essentialist. That's its entire point.
Because they're class collaborationist idpolers who aren't firing rockets at capitalists.
No, it's not. it's explicitly anti-universalist.
I have no problem doing that because it’s roots aren’t in socialism, and started as a reaction to it
Anti-intsec gang rolling in
It is assuming a monistic essence for ALREADY constructed groups, and projecting a universal supposition onto others - that is a claim to universality, within constructed particularism. So no, what is being described is not at all anti-essentialist
it's not surprising
people shouldn't fall for these threads
It IS universalist because it takes multiple dimensions of oppression into account.
its hardly essentialism, its reconginising struggle
To deny the struggle of LGBT, PoC and Women, is to condemn them.
Intersectionality is recognciling said struggle, which is outside of class, and i would pose that makes it anti-essentialist
id like a source on that one, because youre so far from the truth
Wew, perhaps in words, but as Zizek pointed out you become a class-reductionist around these people as soon as you mention class. I don't understand why someone claiming to be a true intersectional feminist (unlike all those phony corporate mean girl feminists!) wouldn't just call him or herself a communist.
As even MIM aka the group famous for the all sex is rape/sterilize all men line pointed most communist movements in the 20th century were hostile to (bourgeois) feminists while sharing some of the same goals as feminism. This perhaps isn't unlike the fact that most of us would agree that democracy has been historically progressive but would disagree with a vote for bourgeois political parties in a free and democratic election.
so i assume if i were to tell you lgbt, race and other "idpol" issues were outside of class and then gave chelsea manning an RPG, youd be down for the cause?
congrats bait, you don't know what essentialism is
No. No, it is not.
That's not what universalism is
OP, I solved the intersectionality problem. Pic related.
Explain what "universalism" means in your own words. No pictographs, no Zizek videos, no screenshots.
You don’t even know what I’m referring to, yet you say that?
What a pseud.
Holla Forums does not deny those struggles (by and large, Holla Forums isn't a person), we simply see class as central. Any communist movement must be anti racist, anti sexist, and at the same time should not implement trash such as depicted in the reply below.
Identity based divisions are cancer.
I swear, each of these types of threads is purpose built to make Holla Forums out to be white nationalist hatemongers.
see what the ancom is saying
When I see an leftwing LGBT group kick starting the revolution sure, but when it's a gay revolution then no. Idpol revolution isn't leftwing it's just a reorganisation of who is the ruling class.
Well said
why are you referring to Holla Forums as a collective, the lasty thing about this place is unity.
someone said earlier that these are made to fish for screenshots or something
Universalism refers to a sense of self-evidence, that which conceivably/consistently represents imminence of being - regardless of extenuating or constructed circumstance. It is predicated by a minimal distance between representation and empirical occurrence. It is an intensely philosophical process linked to being as event, which is by its nature - aleatory.
theyve been there all along, and for whatevers next theyll be at the front too, the problem is it wasnt as acceptable in the past for out lgbt people to be leading change movements
the ancom is as retarded as you, so that's hardly illuminating. Neither of you know what particularism, essentialism, or universality mean
tight
I did mention "by and large, Holla Forums isn't a person". I've been here for about 4 years, I know the predominant attitudes.
I should have saged I guess. But at least I'm doing more than just reeing. Thread should be set to autosage anyway, it was dishonest from the get go and there's no real discussion.
Yeah I can’t imagine why alienating the white working class would be a problem. It’s not like an unsympathetic liberal left has driven the rise of right wing populism among that exact demographic in the past few years.
Because it argues that class is only a factor of oppression, and not THE prime factor. Meaning that it opens up the possibility of a bourgeois person being “more oppressed” than a prole based on race or other issues, which then means that people are more likely to band together according to those issues rather than class. It also ignores that in the majority of cases, it is economic and class structures that lead to the development of these social distinctions in the first place. Other factors are derived from class, they do not exist on equal footing with it. It also requires the “validation” of identity rather than its rejection, thus sowing the seeds of micro-nationalism and the rejection of universality.
Rejecting intersectionality does not mean rejecting anti-racist or feminist politics. It means taking a Marxist approach to these issues, recognizing their economic roots, and using class solidarity as a means of overcoming them.
Can intersectional politics be compatible with socialism? Yes, but they inherently include elements harmful to working class solidarity, anti racist politics, and the building of the proletarian movement.
You seem to not understand a quite simple aspect of a person's character. There will be gays in the communist revolution not because they're gay but because they're communists. There is only one identity that matters when it comes to the communist revolution and that is your relationship to the MoP.
Which is the problem with liberal idpol, and why intersectionality should be the leading pro-inclusion thought.
Unfortuntely, asking white people to recognize birthright gets em in a tizzy because meritocracy or whatever. Ill say it again, you can be anti-capitalist and recognise capitalism benefits you, we are beyond the orginal theory of "if you benefit, youre boug too".
He’s talking about Luigi Taparelli dum dum
i can get behind this 100%, but ive always tried to explain after the revoloution, PoC and LGBT and women are still going to be aggrieved. Its why intersectionality is needed as a theory of hindsight, obviously we are still in capitalism so its not hindsight but omnipresent.
okay ive finally found a name for said sour faced italian. And yep, ive got no clue.
you're right, it's not. it's underlying material conditions. dummy.
see: scotland, where the broad conditions that lead to Brexit ("revolt against the liberal elites!!") in England and Wales lead instead to a surge in support for independence and the scottish national party, who's present leader tried to reposition herself in late 2016 as the defender of said liberals and said liberalism.
You keep saying this, but have yet to point what the underlying difference is
See
i take critiques on it not being "marxian" because some people forget that neo-marxism happend and theyll only accept gospel from a few select long dead marxists
So…it’s useless
You don't seem to understand that all enmity stems from class. Racism as a way of humanising the awful actions of slave owners and the terrible conditions around the world. Sexism as a way to keep the working class male passive. Anti-religious mentalities are used to destroy any dissent from the group. These all stem from the ruling class trying to divide the working class into separate groups with different objectives, the point of the revolution is to form the working class into a solid single group. Why do you think we've called each other Comrade, it's gender-neutral and builds brotherhood. So you calling for addressing the ailments of one group will divide the working class even more.
no because we are currently in capitalism so its prevalent
Aggrieved by what? We deal in material relations here, not hurt feelings.
This is delving into class reductionism, material concerns are the LARGEST source of emnity, but not the exclusive source. WE can agree on that as a starting point.
could you expand?
Why should i adopt a policy that actively works against me?
its not deeply triggering and problematic
its never been deeply triggering and problematic, this is one of the worst strawmen along with class-collaboration.
*anti - hwhite
Good reading comprehension
You cited Dubois, who died before intersectionality was even coined,
and Collins whom as far as I can tell is a liberal. Both of which you haven’t even read.
But really, how do you think you are going to convince the white working class, which is still the largest demographic in America, when you actively remove power from them? We are supposed to empower the people, not take it away for some retarded idealistic purpose.
That shows me for being drunk and debating politics. I'm a fucking retard.
Except you don’t even know what the material conditions will be like after capitalism, yet you act like it’s applicable.
yes but doing around Poc, lgbt etc is exclusionary, its dismissive. Sure you can go on to expand about how racism sexism are tools of the ruling class, but by then theyve tuned out because your starting point tells them theyre fight isnt the same fight.
Ive been pointing out here and there its about narrative, im not demanding you change your mindset (mostly because if lenin had to pick one of us hed certainley pick you as a true comrade) but what im saying you should do is to switch up the dialectics
correct and i go on to say i havent read them and all sorts of nitty gritty ridicoulusness to discredit the theory.
The same way you convince PoC and LGBT to join our cause when its "all about class"
The narrative, see
arent we all arguing from points of ignorance if thats the case
Their fight is the same fight you idiot. They are the proletariat just as much as a straight white male. Isn't that the whole point of getting rid of racism and sexism, for everyone to only be judged by their actions. Isn't it you instead putting them on a pedestal because you've decided that because they've suffered they should be treated with any different gloves then the gloves of the workers? What makes a gay worker any different from a black worker? Nothing they're workers who need to break their chains.
Maybe of intersectionality lol
I mean, if you’re going to argue that the old dead Marxist are irrelevant, maybe your only socialist source shouldn’t be a guy who died before the theory was even created
You're arguing on the principle, and i on the praticality.
The white working class is the biggest demographic group in america = largest voter base = larger chance of democratically electing an actual socialist.
While arguing for intersectionality will get you a much higher % of minority votes, it will render the white vote considerably lower.
jeez, like, hasnt the biggest problem the left has faced in the last 100 years has been convincing people of that? They are alienated towards believing otherwise, and the more rhetoric you push against a certain group, the less likely it is for them to break free of that conditioning.
No, only you so far as I can tell
this is where i diverge
Racism and sexism, existed before capitalism they will exist after it, their fight is just as much mine as the class fight its theirs. they are two sides to the same coin yes, but two sides all the same.
ill take that, im not arguing marx is irrelevant cus hes old and dead, rather just writing off a select few who wont acknowledge certain theories cus their favs didnt write it
Im glad someone heere is enlightened!
Please tell us what the material conditions are after capitalism, do remeber to show your workings
Thats true, i started my point on practicality but have got a bit lost in the sauce along the way.
We need to shift to intersectionality because i would argue its liberal idpol that garners those voting results, and intersectionality posing the material perspective of the struggle of minority groups and, rather than condemning the white people as the perpetrators, showing the truth that they just have the best of a bad hnd, and even then theyre in poverty too.
Ofcourse thats probably not soundbite worthy, but hey, its better than "its class" or "the whites are at it again".
i also agree with the second point, i dont believe its all about class tbf
We're not talking about if capitalism invented racism and sexism m80 that's stupid as shit. And do tell me why they will exist after it? Why do you know this? Because they've been around since agriculture? Well so was the dichotomy of Ruler and Worker but after the revolution we're to do away with that why do you think racism and sexism will endure such a different system? How do you know it will?
Ruler and worker are hierarchical systems, racism and sexism are argued on beliefs of hierarchy. Sure you can get rid of the first easily, but the latter is feelings and we know what theyre like
Unless this is anarchism were talking about, hierarchical viewpoints will still remain.
I dont know it will, of course. i COULD point to the racism of the USSR, China, especially Cuba, and the eastern bloc, however i dont regard those as truly communist countries so it would be disingenuous for me to do so
Alright, now I can just see you've got no clue about Marxist theory. Oh yeah and by the way m80 while you grew up in suburbia some people didn't have the luxury. I grew up in a working class family in the middle of a political and religious civil war, try fucking seeing that in the end we're workers and nothing more matters because that's how we find solidarity.
Essentialism?
Inner city looks a bit different to the suburbs, although im only drawing from my experience growing up ofcourse :^)
You're the main person arguing the point in this thread so I presumed you were the OP, pretty normal thing to do.
Oh god no i know better thn to post about idpol in Holla Forums, ill just chime in where it pops up
fair dinkum
this OP reads like shitlib madlibs
It comes from American universities and is therefore bad.
Go to reddit and never come back
ITT: "universalists" who deny the necessity of national liberation and rely on an outdated humanist/anthropocentric mentality.
Aside from being a culture/movement (rather than just the principle it claims to be) always always always ignores class and capitalism? Intersectionality fails at its own stated goals by being reductionist and essentialist. Instead of simply considering an individual's specific context and story, it first has to break them down into their component categories. Intersectionality doesn't see someone as Jane who grew up in the Bronx, doing housework to support her family. It sees her as a half white half latinx primarily heterosexual cis woman with a peanut allergy and a little bi-curiosity. None of which encapsulates her life or tells us about her specific struggle. Instead of that her story gets absorbed into "women's struggle" or "latinx struggle" or "bicurious struggle," and Jane's struggle (including insights she might provide) disappears. And intersectionality as a movement is vaguely aware of this, hence the tendency toward adopting more categories. But life is too complex and varies too much based on context for there to ever be enough categories to really cover things. And that's the real heart of the problem: intersectionality approaches issues with a commodity-driven mindset. All the things some is (or can be said to be) are treated as commodities, worth X, Y, or Z in oppression points. Intersectionality is primarily concerned with defining social order according to value, based on identity categories. It tries to fight racism, sexism, etc but it accepts the premise of these categories being legitimate in the first place. Instead of undermining and abolishing the identities, intersectionality would simply flip them around. The more productive approach would simply be to incorporate different people's struggles into a cohesive theory, taking identity as part of the context, and having the process of incorporation remove the baggage of identity within the liberatory movement. Determining even relatively permanent status withinn a radical movement based on identity is a recipe for failure (see the progressive stack and occupy wall street).
go ahead just don't make everyone do it too, I don't feel bad because I don't the word manhole is oppressive.
National 'liberation" is in practice just another word for nationalism. All decolonization did was empower local porkies and neocolonial governments.
Stop living in the 1950s. The working class has no country, and never will; global revolution or bust!
if you convince you seriously "care" about any ephemeral "marginalized" grouping of people you've never met, you're a deluded moralizing narcissist
I would love to be proven wrong but i don't think anyone can be 'for' or 'against' Intersectionality if it doesn't even mean anything. It is a trivial observation put under a fancy term. It doesn't add any surplus in knowledge or theory, it just says 'hmm.. guess people are more than just a sex or a race…'. So I have no idea why anyone except desperate college students use the term. I guess my problem is when you put a bunch trivial shit under a name and call it a theory it can become very elitist very quickly and be useless for or even used against working class movements.
Nazbols arent leftist
Can you name one more stereotypically bourgeois activity than Intersectionality? With its lazy categories and OH SO MUCH empathy for all the marginalized. I mean, it's no good to only empathize with an economic class when there are hundreds of Intersectional groups waiting for your (activist) care