Preventing tax evasion, brain drain, etc

When implementing socialism, what must be done to prevent all the bourgeoisie/skilled laborers from moving out/keeping their money in Swiss bank accounts? One of the main faults of the DDR was in so many of its people moving for nations they found favorable towards themselves, resulting in a considerable loss for the development of the DDR. So then, what is to be done in response to this?

Other urls found in this thread:

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/chinese-workers-abandon-silicon-valley-for-riches-back-home
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2398046.html
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatism

International hit squads.

they can't flee if they're dead

quite simply, being ready to reject corporations who dont oblige. If a leader is strong enough to tell amazon to pay their taxes or not have their country as an available consumer to them, they must be ready to follow through and when amazon dont pay up, seize their assets in your jurisdiction and stop them from selling until they pay up.

Brain drain…. Pfhhh. Nigga I think you forgot to pay off your free socialist education. Why don't you smell this perfume for a second?

Oh damn, that's right, that could be done. Pretty ballsy as well, putting them into such a chokehold and having them obey instead of vice versa.

However, what about the ordinary people who just happen to be skilled and/or have a lot of capital who aren't exactly looking forward to the rough changes of socialism?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

For the current generation of entrepreneurs and petit-boug money makers, theres not much i can see being done in terms of cohersion. If your a fan of force then sure, do what these lot are saying and eithe rhve them hanged or kill them for defection. You essentisaly give up the right to be called socialist by doing so, but hey who cares right.

However you can educate the next generation with positive nationalism. Im not a fan of nationalism of any sort however, by convincing young people they not only have a duty to their common man and worker to make money for each other, but also that its something to be desired. Its social cohesion, its a sense of belonging, as long as your here, you have a home, you have a family and you have us (the state) looking out for you and everything you need, and the rest is up to you.

The economy WILL take a hit when you transition, some people cannot be convinced, however the amount of people who would genuinely leave isnt high.

Oh shit! Look out behind you bro-ski! That's not a Mexican silver miner!

Who else is just in it for the virtue signaling? Amirite?

I don't get it why would you give up the right to be called socialist if you kill wannabe porkys?

am i really virtue signalling by saying its unsocialist to commit international murder for defectors?
The virtue of of valuing human life?

sick

What's your definition of valuing human life? Also keep in mind their are 7.6 billion people living on this planet.

Because its not socialist, its more authoritarian. If you want to create an isolationist state, cool. I fyou want it to be self-sufficiant, im down. If you want the state to dictate who can and cant be in charge, your speaking my language.

But if you want to kill people who reject your vision no matter how much you tell them its right, then thats where i get off. They are rebelling, they arent agitating and they arent disrupting, theyre just leaving, theyre ready to sacrifice everything to just leave.

Theyre wrong of course, but theyre punishment should evident when they dont receive the same support hen their ambitions fail.

Every life has value and has something to give, if you are a state its your responsibility to allow that life to flourish and give what it can back to you, no matter what that may be.

You would otherwise have very much difficulty in realizing the dream because you relinquish control during such a critical stage, where the state is supposed to morph the nation into socialism to a point where it may rest by itself.
To view this humanistically, though, would involve the personal analysis of them to determine whether they should be forgiven or be made an example of.

Buthowtho?

are you asking how these two statements can be held simultaneously? They're hardly hypocritical

How can you dictate anything without threat of death?

Im not doing ask people to create cooperatives, by all accounts you should seize those means and freeze the accounts and confiscate the assets. The important line is between dissent/defection and actual damage to the cause.

Porky A has had his factory seized and is pissed and leaves to pakistan or somehwhere. This does not damage the state cus we have his assets.

Porky B has had his factory seized and is trying to get them back, through force or otherwise. This is where you get disciplinary.

Wait, maybe I get it. You're saying they can leave with their lives as long as they leave their stuff. Right?

A threat of justice works just the same, im not anti-law lmao. Its in my view that a socialist nation does not kill its citizens unless they pose a threat, insurrection etc. why would they need to when they can make examples and statements.

yes yes yes, i shouldve explained it clearer, apologies

Why would you continue to use this when you can use a labour voucher system?

support closed borders.

Only a socialist could be so behind the times when it comes to the latest in property rights enforcement tech.
Nigga, our wealth is tied up in hashes, wrapped up in encrypted batches. You get nothing! You lose!


Mr. Petit Bourgeoisie, if he's not a complete idiot, already has a separate passport he bought on the darknet and will simply GTFO at the first sign of danger. Capital is more mobile now than ever before in human history, and it's just gonna get worse for you violent apes. Better start playing by the rules.

I honestly cannot tell if you're joking or not.

There are no taxes in socialism. Not in DDR, USSR, China, Cuba, DPRK, or any other socialist country.

I think you're missing the point of >international
Nam is from DPRK yet he got murked in Malaysia. How is a book with stamps in it going to help you?

Dead serious.

That's a single, high profile case that took years. Not gonna work against tens of thousands of fleeing small-time millionaires.
Humans are not that easy to control, comrade.

By having superior means of production, and thus superior system to support them.

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/chinese-workers-abandon-silicon-valley-for-riches-back-home

There's a million ways. Probably won't want to be using a fitbit and instagram anymore.

have fun with the digital mud-pies, i want to seize the physical stuff that you can buy with it.
no, i'm not letting you buy it back with green paper or mudpies.

I don't think the first world countries have enough of the physical stuff to be self sufficient, though. At least at the current level of consumption.

Clueless nocoiner detected. Please try transferring a mudpie halfway around the world anonymously and then selling it to obtain physical assets, or programming your mud pie to create trustless, self-enforcing contracts. If you can't see the inherent value in the self-sustaining system Satoshi's invention set in motion at this particular point in history, I really don't know what to tell you.

It's not that hard to avoid detection if you are a relative nobody and not a complete retard. You think I'm going to log onto facebook on my GPS-enabled android phone after fleeing a commie region?
And let's be honest, that's all you guys are ever going to be able to grab: small sections of land that will quickly be drained of any and all higher level producers. People and assets are more mobile than ever and a socialist state that is economically failing before it's even started will never have the resources to dispatch a competent team for kidnapping or assassinating even tens of thousands of expat dissidents. It's a complete la-la land fantasy, just like "worldwide revolution."

It doesn't matter what you use them for, hash coins are mudpies. Difficult to obtain mudpies, but mudpies nonetheless.

They have no value nor use beyond their use as exchange tokens and take exorbitant amounts of labor to create.

b-but the chinese can't innovate!

This anarkiddie gets it.

You can still try the high end goods you produce for raw materials.

Total nonsense. You can get scammed just as easily if you buy things with goycoin as you would otherwise.

Mmmmhmmm, and praytell what valuable, unique properties do mudpies have that nothing else does?

Do you even understand what is going on under the hood of SatoshiDice, you dumb nigger?

All of this is meaningless with all assets have been seized. No matter what you're using to conduct exchanges you cannot escape the fact the actual production takes place in the physical world where property is enforced by the repressive wing of the state. You cannot operate a business when you have no access the to means of production.

Top kek.

lmao, enjoy losing your smoke and mirror wealth to a hack through an integer overflow bug.

It's irrelevant. The transfer of physical goods is the linchpin, and that is unrelated to whatever fancy pants currency analogue you use.

Let me break it down clearly for you, even though I really shouldn't be wasting my time: I have crypto wealth, I take my cryptowealth out of soon-to-be Commieland so that I can spend it in any one of hundreds of other jurisdictions where the economically retarded goodsquad doesn't have any power. What do, comrades?!

We don't need to take everything simultaneously you delusional idiot. Seizing all land, means of production and (freight) transportation, and then locking down the borders is enough to render your digital tokens worthless within any given region.

And this just happens overnight? LMAO
Most of us are long gone by then.

You still haven't actually taken any physical wealth out of the country you just left though.

Nothing, as long as you don't take our goods out of commieland, we are not poorer for it.

Assuming you get out before the borders get locked down (and get put in a gulag lol), all you'll get away with is your crypto-currency: you'll lose all physical assets you possessed within that region (which is the point).

Come on. This shit is monkey-tier. 100 BTC is transferred from Commieland to wherever, where I can then exchange it for goods and services. By every sane definition, I've "gotten my capital out."

Willful economic illiteracy of this magnitude must be why you are a socialist.

"The revolution" ain't happening overnight, buddy. Conversion of physical to crypto isn't instantaneous but it doesn't take that long either. You seriously think people who are smart enough to have amassed appreciable assets won't see the writing on the wall long before the sluggish state has a chance to do anything? Give me a break.

Your 100BTC was being used to exchange for the 100bln BTC of goods and services in CapitalismLand. Revolt happens, Capitalismland becomes Commieland. You leave with your 100BTC, taking the BTC to RefugeLand where you now have a claim of the 140bln BTC worth of goods and services of the economy of RefugeLand.
You have not taken a single penny worth of the 100bln BTC worth out of commie land.

Do you actually think money has intrinsic value and is not simply used to regulate the physical goods and services of the actual economy?

Does something that can be exchanged for goods and services have no value, now? lol

...

Who will give you bitcoins for physical assets that everyone knows will be forfeited?

Confusing a token with the thing that it represents is the mark of a true "economic illiterate".

Kek. The revolutionary dictatorship isn't the same thing as the incompetent bourgeois liberals states we live under now, and it comes into existence simultaneously on an economic and political level since it grows out of economic action by the working class itself (strike committees, unions, workers councils, etc). The seizure of physical assets *is* the revolution.

Look, let us unpack this for a second. Assume two regions A and B. Assume that in both you can trade bitcoin for goods and services. Now if you take 100 bitcoins of someone in region A and use it to buy goods in area B, area A will have a material increase in wealth vis a vis area B, and area B will have more bitcoins. These can then in theory be traded later for goods in area A if so desired.

But what happens if bitcoin use is restricted in area A? Assume that people from area A can still use their bitcoins in area B. What we have now is that the previous amount of bitcoins is chasing only half as much goods and services. The value will crash, and more like than not usage will face restrictions in area B as well.

Beyond that, if the bitcoins are taken out of area A, it is only poorer in the sense that those bitcoins cannot be used to transfer goods from area B to area A. But if the value f the bitcoins crashed because of the newly created glut in money v. goods and services, the potential for a transfer of goods is lowered anyway. Bottom line is that it's just not that significant or revolutionary, at best it works like a less reliable fiat currency.

No, it does not have any more value than what you can get out of those goods and services.
In fact it doesn't even have that value until it has been redeemed for it.

Before it happens, because it will get mentioned eventually, here's a thread a while back from another ancap in which the "poor socialist development" meme is addressed 8ch.net/leftypol/res/2398046.html

landlords leaving = good, they are a drain on society and can't take the land with them
patent owners (usually not the same as inventors) leaving = lmao we just abolish patents and copy the stuff, so we can even "expropriate" (copy) ideas from people who never set foot in the country
boss-class leaving = who gives a shit as long as they don't take the physical means of production with them
skilled professionals leaving = that's a problem
People aren't the hypermobile money-seekers pro-capitalist rhetoric makes them out to be. Would you learn another language and move to a country far away from friends and family for a salary that is just 5 % higher? The issue of the GDR was it was right next not to one random capitalist country, but one of the richest countries in the world, and on top of that people there spoke the same language. Because of the costs of moving and since what you get for living in a country in comparison to another is not directly tied to your budget (and that part growing in socialism), I don't think the salary has to match what's available outside, but the country can't sustain a salary gap of just any size while allowing free movement, so at least one of these policies must be implemented: salary adjustments upwards for professionals to counter brain-drain (loudly talking about moving out doesn't mean much, the adjustment should be done only in light of how many people actually do it) or movement restrictions (these shouldn't be implemented in a heavy-handed manner if at all, it should only apply to people who undergo long state-paid training and have an expiration date, and people should be informed about the length of the travel-restriction period before they decide whether to enter the field).

Simple, no leaving the country until all the "free" education is repaid in labor time.

Let them fucking go.

Fuck em.

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We make the currency worthless and install a new one as well as seizing all physical assets

The most influential people find their way across. They can pay people to facilitate their escape. Also, they really can not flee if they're dead, and even then they can be nabbed once they have fled, at least to make an example of out them if not to confiscate their assets. With this, I don't think many rich people have converted to cryptocurrency, since its so unstable. It's really just a niche right now that only techies are into for the novelty.


That won't prevent them from fleeing the harsh intermediary period, and even then socialism is not by definition taxless.


It'll be more efficient once you have a more comprehensive hit squad than that of the DPRK, especially with motivations and promises of safeguarding millionaires if they return, as opposed to always being on the run and not knowing which day is their last.


Won't the transitional period be rough? Of course it'll be better later but they'll flee the tough conditions as they come. With this, many of them aren't so keen on redistributing their wealth, so getting to a point whey they'll see insignificant losses for themselves is going to take a long, arduous effort across much time.


So how will they avoid detection then? They'll still be using phones, and they will most likely be out in public or have some information leading to their exposure, provided you have foreign agents there. Even if they have bodyguards, they remain to be targets as seen in such examples as Leon Trotsky.

There are many countries out there are speak the same language as another country. English is spoken primarily in many, many countries, as is French, Spanish, basically any language of a colonial power or a country with influence. This would only really then apply to countries like Japan, whose people really only know that and don't have any neighbors. Otherwise, those millionaires are just going to move somewhere where they can keep their capital, and even then learning a language for them may be worth keeping their wealth.

a threat of justice is just state supported violence

Read lenin

A good idea on paper, I don't know if it would be very successful in the real world?

...

Millionaire what, millionaire landlords?

I know companies like Facebook are practically on their knees trying to get into China, since it has so many people and therefore a very large market. Yet still, China is the one in the position of authority despite being so restrictive in terms of the corporations allowed in. It has something they very much want, and it gets to decide the terms of that, because otherwise those corporations are missing out on a very large opportunity.

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Millionaires in general. People who want to escape with their assets. In the case of landlords, I assume they would seek to liquidate that and move shop elsewhere, preferably a location that speaks their language although they could either learn it or get an interpreter for them.

And what? The physical assets stay where they were, even if they change hands.

It's less of a problem, then, however when they move out they still take all that money with them, out of the country.

People don't move to other countries en masse to make more money, they move to have a better life. If your country can provide a good, secure standard of living then you won't have issues with emigration, regardless of what else about your country is true.

read marx, nigger

For capitalists, though, money is life. They are the ones spending 120 hours a week working because that's their pleasure.


Well excuuuuse me; "capital".

There is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent smart and rich people leaving your country unless you imprison them.

I wonder, how did Muammar Gaddhafi exactly transition between capitalism and socialism? As I recall, it was relatively painless and was more so oriented towards redirecting the riches of the land towards the people as well as numerous infrastructure projects.

You are bamboozled by tokens that only work because of a particular configuration of society, these dead tokens by themselves cannot generate the society and regulations that makes them useful for you. These tokens do not turn into something useful by a chemical process, they are exchanged, them to be exchanged requires somebody on the other side of the equation willing to give you something in turn. Production is a physical-chemical process, all that blahblah about paying money for this or that and hiring people are very specific actions of a very specific historic period with particular legal regulations. To produce something requires particular physical resources and physical machinery and physical human input, this can be arranged in various ways of incentives/coercion. What is important is to have access to natural resources and machinery and that there are people capable of doing the actual work. Such a person is not a landlord or some jerkoff living off dividends (these can all go fucking kill themselves, it causes no reduction in output). When slavery was abolished in Murica, do you think it was somehow a big deal what happened afterwards with the shares of those companies some people had? When a currency is replaced with another (or labor vouchers) and the state ceases to recognize the old currency for paying taxes and fines, its value implodes.

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(me)
If that isn't clear: By those companies I mean the shares in companies that did slavery as their main thing.

The only reason this wouldn't work is because Amazon would call the CIA.

I don't think they had much capitalism to speak of to be quite honest.

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Why don't you leave your armchair, get outside, and tell any black person you encounter on the streets that it wouldn't make you sad if slavery were legalized, because after all, wage slavery is no better.

I wonder who is behind this post.

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and murder across borders isnt?

we can try it and find out, i doubt apple is willing to give up a potential market just for the measly taxes that market asks for

For a third world country sure, from the perspective of a brit, i dont think they would#

theyd start a trade war but theyre doing it anyway lmao

They can't run away anywhere once you've annexed all the countries.

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The goal is more on the side of making everyone more well off than redistribution

Why were these individuals educated instead of placed in a gulag? On a more serious note, as economies convert to to speculation vubles like what is happening in the US, highly educated workers lose power and wages. In a functioning communist state there pay won't have that far to fall and the security and morality offed by communism combined with shared culture should retain them. As long as you can make it to that stage you will be fine.

Read Stirner brainlet.

Capped for future convenience.

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you'd build a giant beautiful wall, and make the defectors pay for it.

needs more jpeg.

Don't make it a shitty place for them and make it worth their while. This is easier said than done, but I'd say it boils down to that. The yachtfags you don't want anyway, but if you're bleeding doctors and engineers then something is wrong, either from a compensation or job satisfaction standpoint. Techfags also dislike missing out on the cutting edge of their field, which can override the other two factors in extreme cases.

You should be good on job satisfaction by setting short hours, meaningful goals and blasting nationalist propaganda out of PA systems. You can catch up on technology by putting your people to work blatantly copying shit. *All other factors being equal* a socialist nation should also be more comfortable for these people in terms of compensation, but if your economy is fucked then brain drain is a symptom of deeper problems.

even if it's just human capital flight, it's still capital flight

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So, labor force then? People are part of the MoP, being aspects which produce goods and services, in the same way that automated machines are part of the MoP.

we will arrest them before they have a chance to leave. glorious american tanks adorned with red stars will patrol the canadian border for any who manage to escape the hammer

How will we differentiate between who is willing to desert and who is loyal? Should they be forced to remain in the country, only being allowed out for business and vacations and the like, so long as they don't actually move? I assume then that the ones that do illegally move are made an example of, and their assets seized. But how may their assets be seized if they are citizens of overseas jurisdictions? Furthermore, how can their assets be seized if they keep them in Swiss banks? Should the Swiss police get involved, and could they do anything about it? Could some sort of coercion be put into place, like trade embargoes on them or their partners?

Also, while they may leave their mop, they will still take their money with them. The workers and everything will still have to be financed for the time being, so how will that be accomplished? Are we going to have to use labor vouchers or something?

… yes?

Additionally, many more can be attracted back by looking out for those whom are mistreated

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

What I have so far:

What happened historically when people were given seemingly insignificant jobs? I've heard that in Czechoslovakia there were people hired to guard doors that were never opened, among other such seemingly useless jobs. Why was this done? Could they not have been employed in something useful like mining, which generates capital by providing resources towards all kinds of programs if not trade?

Also, expose the other nations. E.g., the USA has been exploiting other nations for its own gain, China sets up infrastructure projects in other nation to get them into debt, disclose CIA operations, confirm "conspiracy theories", etc.

do fascist beast also have value?

Only if they are able to convert.

I could get on board with that. Also give every program a inane sounding socdem title and create a rubberstamp "Panel of Oversight" or some such with economists who certify whatever we do as "macro economically sound", and hope the international bourg is fooled long enough to entrench the reforms.

Sponsor nationalist movements within other nations. While it may seem counter-intuitive, people don't want nationalism as much after they've achieved it, and it can also weaken those other nations by decreasing their area of influence and resources. There's a list here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatism

And if you have the technology, possible create natural disasters for them. Artificial earthquakes, windstorms, volcanoes, etc.

Do as many of these as you can as well. Advance on all fronts, so to speak, so as to sweep all legs and not letting them recover/make do. Protecting against those same things will prove the wellness of the nation especially as it relates to the other ones.

Communism in china doesnt pay for healthcare. When a criminal is executed the family is charged for the bullet.

Where is this utopian communism you speak of?

ahh i see
your using a different definition of capital than he is

capital = physical assets = means of production

when a socialist says someone is a bourgeoisie capitalist they don't mean "someone with money" or "someone who likes free trade" they mean explicitly someone some one who owns REAL(as in real estate) capital.

in the future when having a discussion with commies if you try to say you started a business with several thousand dollars of "capital" that you saved up from a job: this is precisely why they will tell you to fuck off.

This definition of capital is several hundred years newer than "real capital" and is related to Mises institute/Rand corporation talking points to re-frame capitalism/communism according to their agenda to trick neoliberal conservacrats into taking out loans and encourage a debt economy precisely because fiat is not real capital.

also crypto is great and all but its still fiat and most of it is traceable even the privacy coins. Its going to lead to global central planning once all assets can be tokenized on the blockchain.

make sure you secure real estate in multiple countries if your serious and be really nice to the people who work for you so they don't kill you when we seize it back :)

Then Theodore Schultz who is also contributed to the development of the subject matter. The best-known application of the idea of "human capital" in economics is that of Mincer and Gary Becker of the "Chicago School" of economics.

please stop this

In some way, the idea of "human capital" is similar to Karl Marx's concept of labor power: he thought in capitalism workers sold their labor power in order to receive income (wages and salaries). But long before Mincer or Becker wrote, Marx pointed to "two disagreeably frustrating facts" with theories that equate wages or salaries with the interest on human capital.

bonus: wage labor in the united states is just one big country sized slave camp that runs on company script.

american republicanism defining meme of "self ownership" is literally conceptualized as selling yourself into indentured servitude for an employer until you can acquire your own capital real estate from which you can draw on the labor of others.

dependent on whether theyve broken the law. Ideally neo-nazi discourse and whatever is banned and as such by holding the beliefes and meeting with fellow fash, theyre breaking the law and giving up those rights.

Where can they run if the universe has fallen to socialism?

HELL

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Tax evasion, Brain drain, etc is only relay an issue for socdems.
Just Kick the capitalists out of the country and collectivize all their assets.

That's assuming they're dumb enough to leave their money in your country and not in some overseas account.

One monetary reform and their currency isn't worth dick.

Yes, but that's within your nation. You'd better own at least a fifth of the world if you want to seriously threaten other nations with sanctions, nukes, etc.

See:

I'm an unapologetic first-worldist, so I assume your nation's currency is in circulation outside as well.

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What about skilled laborers and such then? Are they barred from leaving the nation?


That only goes for a very few select nations. If the revolution happens in Russia, which it will be easier to take place in than, say, the USA, you'll only really have your own currency. Even China's currency is only used in China.