Why aren't we talking about this, Holla Forums? South Africa is flirting with the idea of expropriating white farmers. In 1994, when apartheid officially ended, whites owned about 85% of farm land. Today, that number is 73%.
Hope it happens. If you are against this, you're a fascist, period the end.
They should just go ahead and nationalize all land at this point tbh
But I guess the bourgeoisie is so reactionary these days that even in the Third World they have to dress land reform up under some pretext or another.
true, though with the settlers owning so much of it, what's the difference tbh?
About time. I really hope south africa improves. i'd love to move there when i'm older.
When 73% of all agricultural land is owned by whites, there's no real way of getting around that: if you want socialism you're going to hae to do things that disproportionately dispossess whites of their property.
My biggest fear is that this is really just cover for the land going from boer domination to tribal domination - switching porkies without establishing common ownership of the MoP. This is the problem with idpol being the basis for your political activism since victory is redefined from destroying the system killing us and building a better alternative to beating/destroying the other tribe, team, etc.
Most of the news has the EFF advocating for land to change hands, rather than go into collective ownership or be brought under a state scheme or some sort. This is why I fear that the EFF isn't ML and they are going to turn into ZANU-PF 2.0
This is still an improvement, and if it's literally tribal then that's just primitive communism.
What, is EFF supposed to stick its head in the sand and ignore SETTLER COLONIALISM you fucking idiot?
Boers are more indigenous to South Apefrica than the Bantus you dumb subhuman nigger ape.(ignore the boonposter, if you respond to him you can get a short ban too)
What will Holla Forums say in 2 years when SA has spiraled into extreme poverty and widespread misery? This will fail, you all know it, and it will mean several million people will *once again* be immiserated by your shit ideology. And yet- you're celebrating now and will not learn even after this runs its catastrophic course. Sad!
There are no actual people on this board. Only boons.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that exactly what a ML party would do? If I were an ML in South Africa and I wished to identify the Comprador Bourgeoisie and the National Bourgeoisie I'd draw a distinction between the foreign-owned(ie British) mining companies and other industries and the various smatterings of Tribal land like the Ingonyama Trust(which could very well be open to exploitation/resource extraction with the Zulu's blessings or it might not) and see a pretty clear distinction. From a vulgar non-theoretical standpoint, if I were a South African prole, and the depredation of capitalist greed could be traced back to white porkies almost 80% of the time, I might be more inclined to throw in my support with the ANC or EFF.
Holy fuck EFF Are just African ethnic-Nationalists couloured res whose policies boil down to "Take the wyatt Bougies land and give it to black bougies"
The difference is 27% to be precise. Let us assume that the figures are correct here and let us also assume that the better quality of land is in the hands of whites as well. What is the potential problem of this?
The problem is that for land reform to do its truly revolutionary work is that the lands that bear little or no rent must also be brought into cultivation. I know that sounds counter-intuitive but Marx explains this all quite clearly in Volume 3. The reason for this is by bringing the poorer quality lands into cultivation you bring agricultural products down to their price of production, you deprive the agrarian capitalist and/or the landowner of his ground rent. Marx described rent as an economic irrationality and for this reason he saw that land reform was a bourgeois democratic demand and that in his opinion for capitalism to develop its contradictions to the fullest assuming capitalism is not overthrown of course then the land must be nationalized and brought under the custody of the state.
The key thing here is not to give the land over to black farmers in the form of actual ownership but to lease it to the farmers instead. The rent that the state earns from leasing out its lands are another form of tax revenue. This is also the most fair of all possible options imo as white and black farmers can be given equal access to the land and the most profitable will win out in the land. Rural families who have farm houses and/or non-agrarian rural property that they live on can rent them from the government and this can take the place of say a traditional property tax.
I'm afraid that you're very much mistaken. The black bourgeoisie and black capitalism is very much a reality in SA. Hell, Mandela was even descended from a royal family. It seems many of these tribal relations have developed capitalistic and even semi-feudal qualities–however things may or may not have been in the past.
*win out in the end
What's socialist about switching white capitalists with black capitalists?
I’m fine with it as long as they are going to do it to all porkies, not just the white ones. Anything else is just racial identity politics.
If this happens South Africa will collapse completely. Those white farmers are the only thing keeping that shithole country floating nostrils above water
If this is the EFF's position then I definitely support it and I hope you guys do too. archive.is/mTtBK
All white people should be ejected from Africa after having all of their assets seized.
anarcho-liberalism strikes again
Thanks for the great posts, comrade.
How are the EFF on racial issues? Are they taking a proper, pro-equality and class based approach or do they slip into Bantu ethnic nationalism?
Shut the fuck up.
I'd support this if the SA government was anywhere near competent and less than totally corrupt, but they're not
This will be Zimbabwe 2.0, kick out the corrupt but competent whites and replace them with the even more corrupt and utterly incompetent friends of the president then watch it all fall apart
for their sake I hope they at lest give free classes on farming to the people who get the land.
But if they revert back to a primitive system how will their country develop? How will they ever realize wakanda?
So then can we do the same to coloreds in historically white lands? I agree. I think the world should be made up of homogeneous societies that interact with one another but have defined borders and don't mix culture. After all birds of a feather, do in fact, flock together.
You still haven't proven they're ethnonationalists, liberal. They characterize themselves as a far left, Marxist-Leninist group. The burden of proof is on you, faggot.
This is a bad idea and Im going to laugh when it turns into Zimbabwe 2.0 and they start starving
Its funny that leftypol overwhelmingly supports any form of niggery, and overwhelmingly hates anything white and competently run. Maybe this time when our great works fall, we can make sure to hunt down each and every one of you cockroaches and make sure your genes don't continue.
1. Read the thread before you make your shitty, triggered, nazi opinions heard. 2. Learn how to make a materialist analysis. 3. Stop being such a faggot.
How is this different from when whites do it?
Baboons are gonna have empty tummies!
they shouldn't frame it as "white" farmland they should frame it as all private farmland. (even though whites own like 80% of it)
but whatever its better than nothing
i agree, read Wretched of the Earth by Fanon to understand why this kind of decolonization is bullshit
Can someone please tell me how this is any different than fascism?
Considering the new SA president is a literal borg millionaire, there's a high likelihood these lands will be distributed not to poor blacks, but to cronies of the president or even the president himself.
Fascism usually takes hold in countries three standards deviations to the right in terms of Autism Level.
So im starting to think communism and all the other isms are the same. Why is everyone getting wet over this?
Best wordfilter ever
Taking land from white capitalists and giving it to black capitalists isn't communism.
Doesn't sound like they are bantu ethnic nationalists, although from what I can tell they pander somewhat heavily to pan-african sentiments. That shouldn't be surprising in an African country lol
Patrick Bond has written that their main social base is among black miners.He also wrote that the South African bourgeoisie finds them terrifying, he seems largely supportive of them and he's somewhat critical of modern identity politics. It seems like their pretty critical of the "pork chop nationalism" (to use an old BPP phrase) of the ANC and its accommodation with capitalism and not just the white kind. The Guptas also come in for heavy criticism docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/35f96d_3829645aeddf4faf8a6765964a5da15e.pdf
you shouldnt feel bad for those who own the means of production getting screwed over. communism doesnt screw over the 99%. just the 1%
What im saying is that all the isms are just
So you are okay with a system that screws people over as long as its the people YOU fell deserve it?
ALT RIGHT GO TO SLEEP OR WE'LL KNOCK YOU OUT NOW!
Yes. Exactly. Because that system would benefit me, a worker. Under capitalism, capitalists screw over workers to benefit themselves, and they try to convince everyone that workers deserve it.
So then an unjust system is okay as long as you are the one benefiting from it? You are just as bad as what you hate user. A true hypocrite.
You dont recommend an alternative to unjust systems you just want a different one so you can be on top. Fuck of you phony piece of shit. You dont give one shit about justice or fairness, you just want yours.
made by sargon of akkad gang
What's up with this shit? >>>Holla Forums7795675
So now you are just gonna label and disregard me? Whatever, you still know you are a hypocrite.
Moralizing is bourgeois, user! Communism is the riddle of history solved.
Last time South Africa did this sort of expropriation and "land reform" the land fell into disrepair almost overnight and eventually they begged the Boers/Afrikaans to come back and farm the land.
The fact is, collectivisation of farm land is retarded if it's isn't just going to be automated and mechanised. having hundreds of subsistence farmers on the land is a million times worse than having one large farm that provides excess goods.
Also another thing is the black argument in South Africa is pretty fucking hilarious as most of the indigenous black population of South Africa was genocided by the current bantu population during the Mfecane period in the 19th century.
at least you admit you dont care about people, just your people. This is why I dont like lefties. they pretend to care about the masses but if they happened to be rich they would be supporting capitalism. Its pure jealousy and selfishness.
There is no possible way this can backfire.
A fair number of leftists, though far from the majority, are not poor and/or were born into well-off families. Many right-wingers criticize this fact and blow it out of proportion all the time.
It's a damned if you are and damned if you aren't scenario. You can't win. Just another reason why moralism is bad politics and holds us back.
Don't post Brand. He has done everything short of fellating jordan peterson. I lost a ton of respect for the guy after their last "Discussion"
I never liked him tbh but this quote is actually on-point. Credit where its due and all that.
I'm just sick of people putting him up on a pedestal. He's not the intellectual powerhouse that lefties think he is. He's far too impressionable, he fails to articulate his arguments and he absolutely fucking failed to hold his ground during the peterson debate.
No it's not. He could stop being rich any time he wants. That's vastly different than being poor, because you really CANT just stop being poor whenever you want. There's no comparison. This is just a rich boy complaining that his poor friends don't want to hear from him anymore.
Now you’re getting it. Why would you support a system that screws you over instead of a system that doesn’t?
I am looking into my crystal ball. I see… famine
Okay, so if EFF aren't idpozzed black ethno-nationalists wearing red, despite their leader singing Kill the Boer at a rally, and saying people shouldn't criticize ANC president and that white colonialists are the enemy, and that Hindus treat Blacks badly and are worse than Afrikaners, ANC are definitely porkies that will provoke a civil war, so what's the play here?
I can almost guarantee you that all this land is going to the wealthy black porkys
sounds good to me.
I'm probably going to get banned for this but the mods and board volunteers have been deleting opposing views in this thread and thats kind of fucked up.
Good, white people made capitalism, white people pushed it on all non whites and raped them, it's about time they get repaid, this isn't idpol it's just facts, like others in this thread also said the only way for Africa to succeed is to steal back everything whites stole from them.
Does anyone really expect this to go in any other way?
EXPROPRIATE THE EXPROPRIATORS
it's idpol and capitalism has nothing to do with "white" people. If you think Kangs would develop FALC had it not been for whitey then you're retarded.
If fucking hate this board. When I came to here the first time I was so fucking happy, no it's total shit and full of simpletons mother fuckers. The president is a literal billionare. It's porky re skinning nothing else. If you support this instead of nationalization of the land you are a stupid fucking idiot. This is kill whitey tier shit
Fucking idiot. Bet you are a faggot
Let's be honest, all boers need to die
Only if the entire north american continent get genocided like i proposed multiple times
Looks like you're in the wrong board, aut-right sperg.
This but unironically, the EFF should make Mahkno and Mugabe look like a moderates.
this is honestly my biggest worry, if its just replacing boer porky with African porky it might make things worse for the workers since the new porkies could convince the workers that they're on the same side due to both sharing the same skin color.
The anarkiddies always go full idpol whenever it's an option, to expect otherwise is madness
LOOK AT THIS MAP So basically, this is black ownership of land in the various states, now people are citing national ownership figures against ethnic breakdown, which is understandable but horrifically misplaced. For example, in the western two states, blacks aren't the plurality: coloureds are. South Africa's ethnic divides are far more complex than what people make them out to be. Now if you want true land reform, what needs to happen is not shifting private ownership from one race to another, but to properly socialise and require that all those that work it jointly own it. I severely doubt with the ANC or EFF will do this however.
Yeah, one of the reasons why I left the board in first place
You all need to go back.
Daily reminder that Dr. Beetroot killed some 300 000 by sin of omission.
Doesn't really matter who owns the land. Sout Africa has deep philosophical problems.
Yeah, South Africa really did not fucking handle AIDS well: and Mandela hurt a lot of the efforts.
Against it because we all know it’s just switching one capitalist with another
What happens when you push white folk like their ancestors pushed other folk? They have guns, and bombs, and planes. I don't think anybody will allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Let alone them being responsible for what happen in the past. All you SJW fags make us look bad by going out into the street after you took your hormones and get beat up.
If that's who's fighting the """revolution""" then I would already surrender, snowflake fags need to shape up and start realizing that not only are they wrong but their going to need """ma ebil huwhite mens""" to fight for them. Sad.
How many whites even own farms anyways? According to RT just a mere 40,000 whites actually own farms in South Africa. Is this significant? Well, there are 4.5 million whites in South Africa, so I would say that 200,000 whites at best live on the land as farmers and that would probably be optimistic. This is the problem with Holla Forums memes it leads people to conclude that somehow this struggle over farmland effects all white people when it doesn't necessarily.
There are probably more white South Africans living in poverty in squatters camps and what looks to be the SA equivalent of trailer parks then there are white farmers. My understanding is that in SA half of the white population has been urban/suburban since at least WWII thats one reason why Apartheid was so severe, if you're a private land owner you can keep blacks away from your property but if you live in a city then its hard to avoid them unless you keep them out via law enforced by the state.
EFF calls for the nationalization of all mines. They are based in the black working class that actually work the mines.
Sad tbh. They're workers in a factory. They tell me how South Africa can be nice but there's this atmosphere of fear and paranoia among whites and Asians. Even coloreds are apparently iffy about the ANC.
What did it say originally
(WHITE) REFUGEES WELCOME HERE!
Pretty much the same thing. Probably just fixed a typo
This board man.
How do we know thats not true tho?
Do we have any South African anons here?
I responded to it inside another thread. It's not really notable because EFF is just Holla Forums tier black ethnonationalism based out of coal mines and ANC is cucked "leftist" party who sucks off multinational companies while using land redistribution as a shitty crutch to voters. For context, EFF is run by a former ANC youth organizer and out in the corner is the DA party who is just the anglo/jew/non-black party. The main problem with SA is that there's only three paths forward:
1. ANC keep stealing land from white farmers and giving it to friends of the government (re: not people who know how to farm!) and SA's food production declines in the exact same manner Zimbabwe did. Capital flight occurs as surrounding countries (like Zambia) pick up exiled whites who then make their lands more productive with their knowledge.
2. EFF manages to push actual communism into the government, causing foreign owned mines to be nationalized. This then causes England, China, Japan, Israel and others to pass sanctions against SA for hurting their economic interests, a fight SA can't survive (they didn't in the late 80s which is how Apartheid ended). This could result in a Boxer Rebellion type situation for England to handle.
3. ANC support drops below 50% but disagreements prevent a coalition government with EFF, resulting in them ruling as a minority government. This almost ensures a civil conflict especially if ANC keeps allowing foreign companies to treat coal miners like shit, because if coal miners go on strike SA's economy stops as the power is shut off.
So the 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧ANC🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 is the problem?
The second incarnation of the ANC was created by jews with African figure heads like Mandela to perform for the media and solidify the image of the party as African and not jewish.
Is my information wrong?
Wow. Triple parentheses is British on Leftypol.
Way to project juden mods.
shut up brit, we're on to you
White devils will pay for their crimes.
OP here. They removed a couple sentences. Basically I asked, "is this gonna be Zimbabwe 2: electric boogaloo or a resurgence of Marxist-Leninist anti-colonial struggle a la Burkina Faso and Sankara." Probably triggered a ☭TANKIE☭ mod reminding them that Zimbabwe fucked up royally. :^)
The Board Owner went full retard and purged this thread last night
So why would that make you AGAINST it unless you had a preference for one porky vs another? I think you're missing your flag: 卐
Utter retardation If a tiny minority owns masses amounts of land they should be collectivised, you shouldnt pick an ethnicity. Undoubtedly there is some non-whites with masses amounts of land and theres white farmers with hardly any land.
Also Fucking end it already, South Africa is such a shithole.
Just nationalise it all so everybody benefits from the fruits of the land, instead of making farmers stop farming and giving the land to people with no experience farming in that desert.
Yup. We should support adding to the Nazi masturbation fantasy that south africa is devolving into, that definately makes you not a nazi.
All blacks, asians and whites should be ejected from the americas after having their assets seized.
I sure hope it happens, too!
I hope so. They make the best BBQ.
You look like the NutSacs that only care about the Jewish Porkies and happily lick the boots of white Porkies
So you're telling me your whole ideology is dictated by what and won't offend Nazis? Are you sure you're not forgetting your flag?: 卐
maybe the world filter fucked it up I said: Because if you make a law that says you can take away land from rich whites and give it to rich blacks then all that does is validate racial hatred against whites as legitimate and supported by the state, making people attack whites. Its the same reason why trump being elected and brexit happening validates similar right-wing retardation and caused people to be emboldened to enact murder and public orginisation of far-right groups.
You were the one calling people nazis because "if you oppose this thing that nazis also oppose it means you are a nazi", mr "ideology only based on what your opponents do or do not want"
But it's only by Nazi type practices that this land ended up in their hands so fuck them.
What the fuck are you on dude? Not everything bad is "da nasis", nazism is a very specific political thing. And the whites living in south africa right now are their ancestors, heritable eternal sin is a right-ring meme. Current germans are not responsible for the holocaust just like current americans are not responsible for the genocide of the indians and current white south africans are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors over 100 or 200 years ago that got them into the south african mainland.
Bruh how dense are you:
During the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s, the government implemented a policy of "resettlement", to force people to move to their designated "group areas". Millions of people were forced to relocate. These removals included people relocated due to slum clearance programmes, labour tenants on white-owned farms, the inhabitants of the so-called "black spots" (black-owned land surrounded by white farms), the families of workers living in townships close to the homelands, and "surplus people" from urban areas, including thousands of people from the Western Cape (which was declared a "Coloured Labour Preference Area") who were moved to the Transkei and Ciskei homelands. The best-publicised forced removals of the 1950s occurred in Johannesburg, when 60,000 people were moved to the new township of Soweto (an abbreviation for South Western Townships).
Until 1955, Sophiatown had been one of the few urban areas where blacks were allowed to own land, and was slowly developing into a multiracial slum. As industry in Johannesburg grew, Sophiatown became the home of a rapidly expanding black workforce, as it was convenient and close to town. It had the only swimming pool for black children in Johannesburg. As one of the oldest black settlements in Johannesburg, it held an almost symbolic importance for the 50,000 blacks it contained. Despite a vigorous ANC protest campaign and worldwide publicity, the removal of Sophiatown began on 9 February 1955 under the Western Areas Removal Scheme. In the early hours, heavily armed police forced residents out of their homes and loaded their belongings onto government trucks. The residents were taken to a large tract of land 19 kilometres (12 mi) from the city centre, known as Meadowlands, which the government had purchased in 1953. Meadowlands became part of a new planned black city called Soweto. Sophiatown was destroyed by bulldozers, and a new white suburb named Triomf (Triumph) was built in its place. This pattern of forced removal and destruction was to repeat itself over the next few years, and was not limited to black South Africans alone. Forced removals from areas like Cato Manor (Mkhumbane) in Durban, and District Six in Cape Town, where 55,000 coloured and Indian people were forced to move to new townships on the Cape Flats, were carried out under the Group Areas Act of 1950. Nearly 600,000 coloured, Indian and Chinese people were moved under the Group Areas Act. Some 40,000 whites were also forced to move when land was transferred from "white South Africa" into the black homelands. These whites however had the benefit of support from the government which the black population did not.
I was referring to all the land that whites had farmed before then and gained before then, back before apartheid, not about half a million out of 55 million, less than 1% of the population who had to move like that. Not to mention that a lot of people alive today did not have a hand in the resettlements, but are being fucked over by it regardless.
And even if so, that doesnt change the points I made about how it makes no fucking difference if its white porky or black porky, and that forced relocation causes racial tension and violence, something that south africa should avoid.
I think you just like Nazis bruh. Why don't you fuckoff back to Holla Forums .
You are just calling me a nazi because I dont agree with your personal brand of idpol. Show me one place where I defended or supported nazism or things related to nazism.
Hard mode: Opposing taking land from one ethnicity and giving it to another ethnicity of the same class is not nazism
Bruh I didn't even say I supported it. However you defended the land reappropriation under apartheid because >it wasn't that bad. So maybe this reappropriation won't be that bad and why don't you fellate a shotgun in the meantime.
Now when I say this I get banned for 'false flagging'. I mean, I was false flagging, but this isn't fair
Wronk. I said doing another round of reappropriation based on race isnt a good idea. I never said it was good, however, it was less impactful than the couple of centuries before it, which were even more bloody. I also said that most people alive in south africa today and work on the farms, did not have a hand in the land reappropriations that happened during and after apartheid. Assuming a ripe young age of 20 when you were put on a farm as a white person, those people would be 60 or 70 by now, far beyond the working age on a farm. The majority of farmers were not born or were children back then, and didnt have a voice or choice in the racial segregation of the time.
What really weirds me out about SA, is why are white south africans refused as refugees? The murder rates there are sky high, and Ive spoken to one before who always had some fresh horrors about living there.
Because living in a country with a high murder rate isn’t a good claim to refugee status. If that was the case Mexicans, El Salvidorians, and even burgers would have a good claim to immigrate anywhere they wanted.
Because accepting white south africans as refugees would first require you as a country to declare the whites as a persecuted minority, unprotected by the south african government, in order to accept them as refugees. Without this, you would also have to accept all of the non-white refugees, which are a far larger number and which are not in any danger other than regular south african poverty.
And as the other guy pointed out, while there is a high murder rate in south africa, its not yet a high level above some of the other places in the world in terms of racial violence.
No. ANC originally developed naturally as a result of SA's suppression of free speech (but lack of desire to commit genocide). However, that was a long time ago. Mugabe was always a cuck and one who happily sold the country off to foreigners while blaming the the non-black minorities for all the problems. Hilariously, Mugabe's downfall began when his corrupt business dealings with the non-black Gupta family were revealed. EFF split off and built themselves as an ethnonationalist communist alternative.
To be clearer, ANC caused this entire mess which SA's Apartheid's supporters accurately predicted. However, sustaining the mess is international finance and globalism, predominately British-based companies who engage in the most worker abuse in SA.
The Jewish angle is completely different. From day one SA was Israel's best friend, because they were both Apartheid states. In the very end, SA's only friend left was Israel. This was why the American President Ronald Reagan vetoed the US sanctions against SA, a move which a Democratic-led Congress overturned. Post Apartheid Israel has been friends with all the non-blacks there, who are now more or less in the same position Jews are in elsewhere. Israel itself owns several major businesses in SA, especially ones tied to Uranium processing and disposal.
If anything this entire mess begins and ends with England. They created SA through the Boer War, destroyed it with sanctions, and now sustain it's corpse with crony capitalism. The only provided solution to this are Holla Forums-tier black nationalists who will only succeed in splitting the country or creating another Apartheid.
(note that everything I said applies to Zimbabwe as well though, because the EFF is just another Mugabe, a person who sold his country to the Chinese and was then forced to destroy most of it to service debt payments before being ousted himself. Zimbabwe now has a major food security problem because all the land theft resulted in capital flight, depriving the country of tax money, an educated workforce and an internal food supply)
really make me think it's amazing how Israel's nuclear ambitions have been treated so differently than North Korea and Iran's
It all has to do with diplomacy. North Korea invaded South Korea in 1950, precipitating a diplomatic crisis which the US immediately got involved in to prevent South Korea from falling to communism. North Korea never apologized or officially recognized South Korea, thus South Korea and America return the favor by not recognizing North Korea. A similar thing happened with Iran, one day they just walked into the US Embassy and took Americans hostage, successfully until Reagan assumed office and they were released. The US has never seen a reason to rebuild their Embassy or engage with them until they apologize and recognize Israel.
Israel itself did things very differently, namely they went out of their way to setup a diplomatic mission to all major countries after their founding meaning grievances could more easily be meditated. Their bomb project probably happened with SA's (another country with full diplomatic relations with America), most believe both worked together on their bombs. This wasn't a thing anyone else in the world really wanted, but as neither nation admitted to having weapons nor stated a desire to use them everyone just sort of let it happen rather than create a crisis. However, years passed and tolerance of SA's Apartheid regime waned resulting in a crisis via sanctions and divestment, culminating in SA ending Apartheid. Again, this "end" being a thing neither Israel nor half the US wanted - see Reagan's Veto. As part of that process SA's government explicitly chose to disarm and destroy their nuclear weapons, a process the US and Israel managed.
Another issue is that throughout all of this, the US never threatened to remove their Embassies from Israel or South Africa. So diplomatic missions continued unabated, even as Apartheid collapsed. This itself spooked Israel which is why they hated Clinton so much in 1992 and why Benjamin Netanyahu himself campaigned for Mitt Romney in 2012.
I'm told who started this mess was Thabo Mbeki, who decided to fuck everything good Mandela did and went for a "third way"(similar to Blair in Britain)), with Zuma being chosen to rework that shit into something better.
That's actually lie. It was Mugabe listening and following the World Bank is what led to Zimbabwe's fuck ups. A guy who studies this issue is Ian Scoones, he wrote a couple of books on it and has a blog dedicated to it (zimbabweland.wordpress.com/).
Ok Holla Forums put away your autistic economic ideals for a moment and just look at this from a pragmatic perspective. You know what is going to happen after this right? You know what will happen when you just take away the land from white competent farmers that have been farming the land for generations to black incompetent ones with an average Autism Level of "I can't be bothered to look it up"?
The thing is that most of them actually will. A lot of them will just move abroad and start farming there and others will thrive in SA as their infrastructure and economic situation is basically dependent on white people.
This is such a left-wing fallacy. Very few successful rebellions or opposing political parties manage to survive without external support.
Newsflash dude, most institutions go to hell once peak nigger has been reached. The obvious reason for the water shortage is because of the black empowerment policies.
Translation, blacks make for corrupt politicians
we must critically support the Khosan in their struggle againt Bantu imperialism
Can't wait. Hope they massacre the farmers too. This is going to wake up so many people.
This is exactly why the right wins, i sweart to god, if i start reading the comments and racial expropiation, not class, gets support from here i'm joining pol
Then why complain at all, friend?
This is also a class thing. Big hit to the SA petty bourgeoisie.
Just means the government has sat around on its collective thumbs not working hard enough on fixing this. Now they've decided – with a level of blindness to Zimbabwe's history that defies belief – appropriating the land without compensation is the solution they've been looking for aaaaaaall these years to aaaaaaaall RSA's problems.
I call bullshit. As others have said, this smells like one porky kicked off his land holdings for another porky. Doing something certainly is more than past governments have, but then the ANC has hardly been a particularly leftist regime, now has it? Most (black) people do not want to work on farms anymore, it was fun for a time, but most people want to live in cities and work in factories or offices. Farming is for chumps.
It's 1919 all over again. Agricultural production will plunge, the country will waste time and money and effort keeping these farms alive, and it will have a minimal impact on alleviating poverty, though I suppose it will reduce the wealth gap as millions of whites flee the country and taking with them the money and skills they ought to be passing on. (Of course, I am assuming most white farms are smallish and not massive corporations with billions of acres. I believe that's mostly true, but I could be wrong.)
Could they not look at co-operativising farms? Wouldn't providing better access to the means of production, or eradicating the corruption that stole the past twenty years of lost opportunity be better avenues of improving income and wealth disparities? Also, have the 12% of land reallocated to blacks been deployed effectively? Has the programme learned from its mistakes and can it effectively redeploy land according to the "equitable" constitutional rule: No, it has not. THIS is what needs to be fixed before worsening the porky factor by granting porky even more opportunity for entrenching the snout in even more land.
It's not sensible. I like where Ramaphosa's heart is at, but he needs to think this through more.
Typical ☭TANKIE☭ response.
Interesting. On /christian/ it's the baptist flag that is the troll flag. Here it's the Christian Commie flag.
Ok Holla Forums put away your inability to read for a momen and look at this thread. You know we already said this right?
Shit user that sounds like… like an actual reasonable, pragmatic, compromise-based solution… which of course is the reason it will never happen.
Because Reverse Racismm®. Now they have da proof.
Where is the SACP in all of this? Is SA industrialized enough for socialism? Communism in one state seems like a disaster, shouldn't they time this with maybe all of Africa?
I think the biggest fear is Fanon's fear that the colonized bourgeoise will engage in a replacement, and that the rest of the world will be scared at the necessary violence of anti colonialism.
Read the fucking thread. Most don't
I did read the thread. Everyone is defending the EFF, posting photos of token white useful idiots in red caps, and talking about how this is necessary. South Africa is going the way of Zimbabwe and if you can't see that you're objectively stupid.
It's good it just shouldn't stop at the whites and the land should go into the hands of the state instead of black landowners. Even then its not such a bad thing, it could be another Zimbabwe but most whites don't even work on these farms anyways. Stop having sympathy for petit-bourgs. I don't know why Holla Forums has such a boner for muh farmers anyways, its really American farmers who have been pushing the hardest for Third World immigration because
They also regularly push for recolonizing Africa, is it any surprise?
This is untrue. A lot of people in this thread are showing concerns to the fact that this will probably be an excuse to put the black porky insead of white. I am one of those and I sure as shit don't agree with the EFF position even if the wear a red hat. The big fuck up in south africa was the privatization of the industries after the end of apartheid, this is leading to all the troubles. Honestly I'm massively sorry for this situation, south africa being one of the most beautiful place I ever been, but unless south africa will go for socialism it will always go for kill whitey or kill niggy. What kind of other solution you see beside nationalization here? Return to the apartheid state is impossible and even if you return to the past you must remember that it was nationalized. Honestly it sucks both ways. If apartheid means making blacks borderline slaves i'm against it, if black hegemony means killing whites i'm against it. Yeah, it will go the Zimbabwean way. I'm deeply sorry for it and angry at the fact that supposed socialist would rather play the black and white game instead of reading shit.
I think Holla Forums needs to have even more threads on subjects that are important to purebreds. How else will we compete with Holla Forums?
The truth is simple. Modern classist hipster lefties like you get on here can ignore race all they like but it has a real pull on their compatriot's actions all the same.
Enjoy a world of more and more idpol with nothing you can fucking do to stop it.
You know how autistic you sound? People are not horses. White europeans have nothing in common with white americans even if they are both "pure"
This true tho. Idpol has a pull with everyone and we can't do shit about it.
When did we become so conservative that it seems like a near-majority of posters here are against land reform? Yeah, I get it, it has a racial angle to it but it is part of the struggle for socialism.
Be honest with yourselves, wouldn't you support it if it was happening in any other country in nearly any other context? This shifts world political economy to the Left–isn't that what we want after decades of it going to the right? Towards regression on a world scale?
If the mines owned by white capitalists were nationalized would we not support this even if the push had an identitarian basis? We also have to remember that Apartheid wasn't even that long-ago.
Where does all the pessimism come from around this situation? It seems like an excellent opportunity for the South African proletariat and its movement which seems to be growing both more militant and sophisticated.
You're so full of shit. You're only worried that it will be bad PR for your beliefs and will end up being an example that makes more Whites become racist.
lol, which one of these is European and which one is American?
I meant culturally, culturally they have nothing similar. I don't know which one is america. 5 seconds with them I will know. A popolation is a language, is what they eat, what they read ecc. Not what they look like. A white american turist doesn't belong in germany more than a korean who was born there.
Sometimes you crash but thats not an excuse to stop trying. You can't get to the moon if you're afraid to fly.
If they were nationalized yes, this is not the case. Also I'd be anyway against the identitarian basis
first don't make this a world wide whites situation seen of americans can barley point out where the fuck africa is on the map, let alone Zimbabwe or South Africa. Second, there is nothing communist about this. Trotskists where pushing against the soviet union but there at the same time there were communist ruling the soviet union. Left is not a hivemind. Third I wanted to buy a house in south africa one day, and seen the situation I won't.
Zimbabwean communist were not pro mugabe, a lot of white communist were forced to escape after. This is the same.
EFF isn't trying to get to the moon, they're trying to kill whitey.
How long is it going to take for you to realize that multiculturalism and communism can not coexist? Either you can have a black communist state, or a white communist state, but you can't have a mix, it will never work.
What are you talking about? You think soviet russia or maoist china were a single ethnic group? Why would black and white not work but Koreans and Georgians work?
But doesn't the ANC largely favor more conservative remedies to the situation? I don't think the issue of land reform would really be on the table at all if the ANC had their way, they were fine with staying the course with Neo-liberal economics. They had to be pushed.
What about the rest of the South African Left? It isn't just about the EFF there are other parties including a fairly strong communist party.
Eurasian is one race.
So korean and slovakians are the same thing?
And why was Zim bothering with the World Bank in the first place? For some reason they decided their own domestic industries were insufficient so they obtained external assistance and advice. It all comes back down to a populist leader engaging in bad policy because he scared off all the smart people while giving their property to people who didn't know how to manage it.
We've transcended you, neoliberal. Begone.
Preserve the rape games.
For reference EFF hates everyone that isn't black. To them whites, coloureds, indians, jews (this is very important as EFF supports Hezbollah, making them enemies of Israel and thus America), and asians are foreigners who engage in colonialism and have "stolen" things from Africa. This is especially relevant as Zuma's downfall occurred in part due to corrupt deals he made with the Gupta family, which is indian. EFF wants them all gone, again they're basically a black Holla Forums.
EFF is the former youth wing of the ANC party. ANC itself is in this situation because they used land reform as a way to buy off votes so they could continue foreign corporate exploitation of their country. EFF formed to stop that, but they fall into the same trap because it's easier to just take land from white farmers (whose entire community will get out of the country voluntarily once one property is evicted) than it is to take land from a foreign firm who has a lot of money and influence in first world countries.
Point is there's no real options here except options that involve racebaiting.
Why the fuck would I ever support the EFF or how the fuck they qualify as communist if that's the only problem they saw with zuma was dealing with indians? That's africa for you. It's beyond help. I'm sad because I can't live there tbh. It was me dream
Capital flight isn't a "neoliberal" concept. It's what happens when one group has all their things taken from them without their consent or compensation: they leave. Our view of this is affected by the modern world, the new world's existence created an easy safety valve to put unwanted groups rather than dumping them off into ghettos. There are many ways to prevent it, including ones compatible with communism that don't result in people simply giving up and leaving. For example work training programs coupled with trade protectionism (more profits, but a more educated and more capable workforce that can defend itself), higher taxes for state-provided healthcare and education services, or co-ops (like an Israeli kibbutz).
Yes, they are.
I mention it for reference.
It isn't, at every point everyone could choose to respect each other's property and decide to work together for a common good. Non-blacks in Africa have a lot of taxable resources which can contribute to the greater economy, and who have an angle against foreign multinationals they compete against. There's an intersection of mutual interests where progressive policy can be created and make society better for everyone.
However, it doesn't happen if one side decides to go full Holla Forums and gas everything that isn't like them. In this case those groups eject to nearby countries and fuck off for good, depriving the original country of their resources in the process.
This ever happened? Obviously It would be the best solution. But porky's rather play the colour game and so black and whites are gonna fuck each other. I'm gonna admit that I don't knoe much about communist parties of south africa. What they think? And they exist to pay service for porky or are serious communists?
No, but it could.
They are also for nationalization of the mines and so on.
Many of these multi-nationals are based in South Africa itself. It's the only African nation that has a domestic capitalist sector compatible to Europe or its offshoots imo I don't think its all a matter of foreign capitalists profiting off SA but I have no doubt the US would send in the marines if anything was done. Arguably it is, or has been, a sub-imperialist or imperialist country for sometime now.
Not against it, just want it to work, properly and not be suckling on the state nipple for the rest of time because it satisfies our need for socialisms. Because you know that when porky is back in charge, he'll withdrawn that tit and the farms will fail. And we will simply replace one porky for another.
If we're going to see socialist reforms, they have to work and work well, so that they stick and are beneficial so that when porky comes to take the land back off them, the farmers themselves, indeed the whole country, fights for their preservation.
tl;dr love the idea; want it to stick
>land reform Contain your erection. It's still going to be privately owned.
Watching these cave beasts purity spiral is a thing of beauty.
Who will till and cultivate the land?
Either re-hire the white farmers, hire foreigners, or put together a massive agricultural educational program and send people to learn agricultural science before taking control of the land.
Boons can't learn.
I love you boonposter
The French Revolution was an example of land reform that where the land was still privately owned. It's not like that wasn't significant.
Transitioning from feudal land ownership to bourgeois land ownership is revolutionary, going from white bourgeois ownership to black bourgeois ownership is not.
obvious false flag. stop taking the bait you retards
Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Especially when even bourgeois economists have admitted that the best land reforms occur with little or no compensation: < The best-known successful land reforms have commonly involved little or no compensation for confiscated assets of landlords. Such was the case of Russia in 1917 and China after 1949, as well as in Japanese and South Korean reforms after WWII. Quoted from MIM Theory 4: The Spiral of Development– the Success and Failure of Communist Development. Original source in pic related.
To further debate, here is a bourgeois take on this issue:
The ANC’s eagerness to adopt the policy, and vote with the radical and populist EFF on the matter, has unsettled investors and economists, helping the rand to reverse some of its early gains in 2018, following the exit of former president Jacob Zuma.
S African Bantus are the most xenophobic people in Africa they kill rape and loot any foreigners that has even an inkling of wealth. I lost two cousins in S Africa one was shot and the other one was burned in his home. Honestly this is just stealing why doesnt the government BUY back the land or why doesnt it start opening up more vocational schooling and interships at white owned farmes and after theyve completed gift them some land to farm on instead of giving it to people who are only in it for the freeland and then will sell it off of leave it in disrepair. Zambia has accepted many veteran south african farmers and gifted them land to farm on increasing their agricultural productivity. this is just populism and to distract the people from the south African economy and joblessness problems which they considerd too hard of a problem to solve for this old stupid man who dont even have a bit of education and only got their jobs because they where parts of some movements a couple decades ago.
persistent black underclass.
>On Tuesday, the South African government warned black farmers and landowners that they, too, faced expropriation by the state if they were found not to be cultivating their land, or were merely holding property for speculative purposes. “Use it or lose it, even if you are black,” said an official with the ruling party’s “Economic Transformation Committee.”
That has not assuaged farmers’ fears. But they are expressing their worries — for now — in economic, not racial, terms: “Farmers are uncertain and asking if they should invest. Why would you invest if someone is just going to take it?” one industry leader said.
Why am I not surprised. To think I almost entertained marxist ideas for a while, I now know that Holla Forums was completely right about you.
It's like Carl Marks said "Whitey is the Kulak of the world."
Surely, a well-educated lurker who is knowledgable about leftist ideas wouldn't get caught up in a first day word filter like this?
They'll be lucky if the farm is all they lose. I remember during civil rights, long time Southern people were saying this won't work because the blacks are inherently violent and impulsive. That's why they kept such control of them.
if the land is confiscated, it will go into use for subsistence, NOT for mass food-production like it used currently. literally no other option could be worse than this
the government has no fucking idea what it's doing and is literally railroading itself into PRC-tier famines
We taking your girl AND your toothbrush, keep crying.
funny how you are spinning this as good news for south africa
Cool. When are you giving away your property to a proud person of colour?
Better go now. It’ll be indistinguishable from zimbabwe in twenty years.
They won’t. They never do. We’ve seen decades of this nonsense already.
This whole thread just gave me cancer. If blanket bans were ever warranted, it would be for all the idpol trash here.
I'm not spinning it as good news. I'm saying that redistributing land to subsistence farmers is the worst possible option. I'm saying the opposite
You know its more complicated than all that, right?
Julius "Shooting Boers with my 44" Malema Julius "Ya'll gonna be in fear when you see this kaffir" Malema Julius "One-man's Plaasmoorde" Malema Julius "Putting whites out of sight" Malema
This isn’t even slightly disingenuous
Julius "84IQ Bubonic Flu" Malema
so what you're saying is Africa will need more foreign aid money and we're gonna see more starving african commercials in between our football games? fucken hell
they are not going to expropriate black farmland, the anc and eff are both black supremacist
shes not a boer
mosy of the blacks in south africa are the descendants of immigrants who came during white rule from other black nations, in order to become servants to whites. This was their ticket to a better life, to moral grand stand iver this is bizarre
Blacks should go for their hunter-gatherers lifestyle and leave the farmers alone tbh
I never said any of this. South Africa is currently self sufficient in regards to food. But it WONT be if the farm land is redistributed to subsistence farmers like in zimbabwe
So, they've decided to turn this into a false-flag opportunity as usual.
There is nothing leftist or ML about these idpol reactionaries.
The farmers literally aren't bourgeoisie. The Boers aren't the ones that own the massive amount of wealth in SA. Sure they own farm land, maybe- but that's irrelevant in comparison to the actual millionare elites exploiting the country which EFF strangely cares little about
Strangely also not talking about the chinese's neo-colonial presence in Africa.
I mean…if they employ labor what class do you think they'd be in?
The farmers don't live that well in comparison to the rich who remain untouched by these militant groups for some reason
Deep stuff. Class=Income
Do you really expect people to swallow this hot garbage? Am i allowed to accuse people of JIDF on Holla Forums?
Because nobody halfway decent wants to slave away to feed and reproduce mouth breathing criminals?
then why aren't you farming in Siberia? Putin is giving away Free Land. gtfo Africa if you hate Africans so much.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Gotta be Russian or ex-Soviet bloc for that.
Kom naar huis, Boer:
Almost all of the blacks who claim native status to SA, are not native to that land neither have they build anything prior to boers farming there
let me guess: you're upper-middle class, white, sheltered and from the US
ga weg, we zitten vol maar kom gerust praten zonder de angelsen
Do it motherfucker, I dare you, I double dog dare you.
Forgive me for questioning this, but didn't both sides in the Rhodesian war basically disown the international community?
The way I understood it is if your willing to take Russian citizenship you can have it.
Most of them at least immigrated in the 19th and early 20th century. They needed someone to slave away in the mines and certain factories after all. Boers have been keeping black slaves for farming and hiring black farmhands for centuries
Good to know leftypol support the extermination and ethnic cleansing the South African that the ANZ and EFF is engage in
South Africa's education system is pure shit, because not passing a nigglet is "raycis". They have high schoolers who can't read; and the grade for passing is 40%, instead of 70% like in Western countries.
Somewhat relevant to this thread, but does anyone have the pic of this black guy in nazi uniform? Jackboots and everything, I remember seeing it somewhere in a thread on leftypol and I forgot to save it.
how the fuck was that picture even taken?
You really need to think about ghat statement user.
Pretty much this. It's good that land reform is happening, but this is an entirely capitalistic transformation that might make a transition to socialism more feasible, but is not unto itself socialist.
Thanks man. You just restored my faith in the left. Holy hell. All the genocide and racism embracing MLs in this thread really scare me…. and of course a sane person like you gets a sage… this place really went to shit.
Holla Forumstards just believe what they want to believe. Not even Great Britain would support the apartheid regime in Rhodesia, so Rhodesia separated from the British Commonwealth entirely.
Can some of you naysayers explain why this is so terrible when land reform had been a central part of the anti-Apartheid movement from the beginning? It wasn't all just about being able to chill on the same beach as yt
are blacks incapable of learning the lessens of Zimbabwe?
Nobody here seems to understand what's going to happen. Once white farmers are expropriated, chinese capitals will purchase the land for nothing. So much for anticolonialism.
Then the anti-colonial struggle would merely move to a new and higher phase
You seem to be unable learn correct grammar.
w/e I hope they kill the farmers too to expedite things
It needn't be terrible, but it won't do a lick of good to bring SA closer to socialism.
How does baboons starving en masse forward communism?? Their nigger baboon ape brains are too small to farm.
How difficult is it to grasp that what we complain about isn't just some land reform but literal murders of people because of their race soley based on the hatred for their ancestors? How can anyone justify this?? In my eyes these people aren't Communist if they are going to tolerate racism as long as it isn't discriminating against their race…
Who is being murdered? Nothing in the land reform involves murder. Why pass a bill intending to expropriate land without compensation if your planning on murdering the farmers? That would just be superfluous.
Keep in mind that the white murder rate is much lower than the national average.
Tenants have to be evicted and even in the first world this is a messy process where tenants often end up getting shot, accidentally or not. Either way it involves people having to basically pack everything up in their car and leave or be shot/have the shit beat out of them by police, which is how capital flight occurs. And this convinently avoids the fact that a lot of blacks in SA are Holla Forums tier and want all non-blacks murdered because they once supported Apartheid and most likely support Israel (a friend of Apartheid).
It isn't if you look at Malema's statements and the general sentimentality towards non-black owned businesses. There is a reason mines have to hire mercenary forces to keep their regular employees in line. This is where the real problems lie, and it's where targeting farmers is absolutely fucking stupid and is clearly being used by the ANC to prevent the foreign-owned mining businesses they willingly collude with from being tampered with. This is why EFF exists in the first place and whether or not Malema accepts this state of affairs is a major test of his character.
But to go back to your original question: there's nothing inherently wrong with land reform, only uncompensated land reform as ANC has suggested might happen (whether or not it does is another, ANC's regime is corrupt to the core and barely functions) would only cause capital flight as people who are told to leave do so. Zimbabwe did the same decades ago and the result is being dependent upon food imports and aide because the domestic industry was given over to cronies of bureaucrats and not competent people.
Which is the political problem here, ANC hasn't demonstrated that they are capable of doing this in a way that isn't just Zim 2.0. Zuma was only ousted because he had become dead weight, everyone else in the party does the embezzlement he is now infamous for.
Hilariously no talk about how China basically ruined Mugabe's regime and forced him out after he suggested he wouldn't pay their bonds back in USD (a currency he can't print himself). China put a gun to his country's back and caused a coup, which is still dealing with food riots in the capital city. The country has very little healthcare now, even less education simply because the government has to pay soldiers then interest payments first and second.
Zim is effectively a fascist state now, one that can't even feed itself and finds itself in limbo because all they must maintain the largely unprofitable infrastructure they've built while still paying the debt payments that created them. There is no way out of this democratically.
Keep in mind that whites are a minority so naturally the amount of deaths by murder will be lower on a most likely inaccurate statistic for all of mostly black SA since blunt racism is evident everywhere and the government does NOTHING about it. They don't care if the Boer fall victim to burglary and get killed by racists. They don't care if they die on the streets in poverty while Chinese bourgeois Company owners fill their stomachs…. Marx must be rolling in hid grave seeing such people call themselves a Communist party…
i hope the the racist farmers dont come running to my island. the wave in the 90s when apartheid ended was bad enough, let alone the colonialists that stole all the land