Wide-spread delusion/wishful thinking on Leftypol:

Wide-spread delusion/wishful thinking on Leftypol:
And then this shit:

Do supposed communists even understand what communism is? Do you guys realize that under the Corby & Bernie run most of us were in for it only for the memes, while knowing very well that bourgeois parliamentary politics is a dead end? It's almost as if some knobheads here took these memes seriously.

Other urls found in this thread:

marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm
theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/jeremy-corbyn-makes-unites-andrew-murray-part-time-consultant
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Period
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Social_Democratic_Labour_Party
instructables.com/id/DIY-Wifi-Extender-Cantenna-build-with-a-stand/
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/

Well, maybe after 10 reformist failures, reformists will learn.

marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm

>Should We Participate in Bourgeois Parliaments?
You seriously don't see the difference between outspoken communists tactically choosing to participate in bourgeois parliaments while advocating for a revolution and socdems participating in bourgeois parliaments as a means and an end? Are you retarded?

Then why is Corbyn bringing Marxist-Leninists?
theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/jeremy-corbyn-makes-unites-andrew-murray-part-time-consultant

You do realize there's a hundred years of history of different kinds of communists giving up their revolutionary aims for reformism? This is not "bringing communists in," this is communists "giving up." Are you retarded?

I just want to get off the neo-liberal wild ride tbh

You don't know what question you're asking.

The point of Communists (in the absence of real Communist movements based in the working class, which don't exist in Britain or the United States) supporting Democratic Socialist or Social Democratic parties is to show by example why this cannot work, and either radicalise within those parties, or gain support by pointing out their flaws.

You can't put the cart before the horse, and nor can you build a Communist movement before there are any meaningful working class movements, or class consciousness.

It's why Lenin told the newly formed Communist Party of Great Britain to work within the Independent Labour Party.

You have no sense of subtlety or nuance in praxis. if you want to constantly agitate for revolution, join the cult of Avakian.

It's just the current phase of capitalism. If you get rid of neoliberalism you'll still have capitalism of a different phase. Your reasons are wrong.


The goal of communists "in the absence of real communist movements" is to create these communists movements – directly – because nobody else will create them if communists wont. Your "tactic" of piggybacking on liberals is hilarious. First, liberalism doesn't need your help pointing out it doesn't work, it is evident to everyone, second, you can't "radicalize" withing a reformist party.

The fact that you are linking Lenin articles while arguing for these shady and misguided positions is striking.

which, according to your model, the liberal reformists will bring about, instead of us. Hilarious.

It's one thing to co-opt Lenin, another thing is to fail to realize that a 100 years have passed, and take his letter as literal guidelines, instead of the spirit of his text as inspiration.


oh, wow

The Party of Avakian is what you get to with your shit praxis. You march every weekend until the revolution comes out of pure air! Fuck education, fuck agitation, fuck organisation of the proletariat!

Great, I'm sure you'll have a fun time setting up your own party completely separate to the working class. You could even call yourself Chairman! However, you're going to have bigger problems if you want to seize state power.

Go back to /r/SandersForPresident/.

Who said anything about building communist parties "separate to (sic) the working class?" Who the fuck are you even quoting?

Also, where did this hilarious idea come from that the mainstream reformist parties (Democrats, Labor) are somehow "close to the workers" or that "without them there are no unions," etc.?

You guys are literally arguing as Hillarybots.

The Labour party is the party of Labour, and was founded as such, with institutional links to the British Trade Union movement.

It's far closer to the British working class than any of the Trotskyoid grouplets, and Stalinists can barely be said to exist in any meaningful sense in the UK beyond teens on twitter.

Yeah I mean the 1 billion trotskyist parties, 1,000 leninist ones and all the other wanks working as individual units as "THE TRVE VANGVARD", forming wide fronts to spread agitpop is never a good idea!
You see this is why the western left was shit post war and was strong pre-war: pre-WWII they worked together.

Nah, the Stalinist Third Period wrecked the interwar Communist/Dem Soc movement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Period

It's quite funny that modern ☭TANKIE☭s still follow it, given it was abandoned by Stalin himself after the Western European Communist Parties had been completely hollowed out.

lolle, if it in the name, it be tru!
::DDD Blair ain't real, he was just an hickup

oggay :DDD

Not really, the CPGB were a force in the interwar periods and just after WWII, it was only after the start of the cold war they fell apart. This along with the ILP and other groups had genuine marxists almost take the reigns of this country.

...

Such communist party! Will sure stand the test of time!
ogay, Molly

There was a good book on it, I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

Basically the argument was that the CPGB lost all of the advances they'd made after the General Strike, and membership collapsed. Wasn't until WW2 when they became a real force again.

>(abandoned by communists)
Practically every Trotskyist party, the orthodox Communist Party of Britain and most Marxists in the UK argue for either joining the Labour party, or supporting a Corbyn government from the outside.

Okay the first part is fucking incomprehensible by let me spell it out for you: the head of Labour's brexit strategy is a former CPGB member (back during the cold war), far left unions (like the RMT and Firefighters' union) who left when Blair became leader have rejoined, it is actively supported by Leninist, Eurcomm and trotskyite groups in various capacities. Heck even George Galloway wrapped up his gig to support Labour because they realise John McDonnell, a famous actual marxist, is the real deal. What would I need to show you to believe me?

Molly is a term for an Irishman you utter dolt.

There are like a dozen parties a communist should consider in the UK. If you are too lazy to look them up, exchange some mails with them, and your standard move is to join the glorious Labor Party, well, simply put, you are not a radical.

Are you even familiar with communist history? By WWI the reformists already chose to support their respective country's imperialism, leaving only a few legit communist parties. Moreover, this "harmonious left" never EVER happened. From the very beginning we've been arguing with each other and this gave us our strengths, while spineless opportunist like you were the trash we've left behind.


I have no idea what this has to do with this thread. If a simple criticism of reformism makes you cry "tankies!" you are a complete idiot. Any ancom would tell you that.

What is a hyperbole.
Also tbf joining most of them would be supportive of Corbyn anyways. Pic related covers the vast majority of non separatist hard left parties in the UK.

And as a tit-bit: when I say separatist I don't mean Irish, I actually mean Scottish.

Ya let's just LARP like the military aristocracy will allow a communist overthrow of America

We'll keep Trump President until they either all vote communist in the U.S. or the revolution happens

BONUS: This is good for world communism too

I genuinely think any revolution won't come from the United States, but from Europe.

Hegemons don't tend to be overthrown, while Europe's ruling class seem past their prime.

This tbh, America is a declining nation but decline does not precipitate revolution: merely its loss as a hegemon. Europe on the other hand, is reaching levels of tensions that will either boil over or require actually existing fascism to dissolve.

Are we still talking about Bernie Sanders? Is it 2015?

Honestly I have seen like 4 Bernie threads or diversions in threads, I have a feeling someone is falseflagging here.

Are we still talking about Jeremy Corbyn? Is it 2022?

I laughed a little

If there's an ironic belief, it will eventually draw in serious adherents my man

they're better than the previous """""""""""""""""""""""""Socialist""""""""""""""""""""""""" parties.

No one gave a fuck about him until he back-stabbed Varoufakis.

Varoufakis was (and still is) /ourguy/.

Before you jump at me i'm not saying Hillary is good, im saying they're both equally terrible

Russia's bourgeoisie was weak compared to their European counterparts, that's why they were vulnerable.
Could Europe redeem themselves after fucking up everything with industrialization and global war?

participating in bourgeoisie politics only appears to be a dead end because every successful communist power grab in a democracy has been overthrown and sabotaged. this doesn't change the fact that actual communists have been elected in the past. it merely means that any electoral strategy needs to be backed by a militant one

You are LIBERALS, you are not socialists. If you promote Corbyn you are a LIBERAL.

Keep writing liberal in allcaps, I am sure it will make your argument more convincing.

I mean, this really stands out. It is clear you never actually read the book you are linking, or did so with your eyes closed. You just heard from some shitposter or a podcast that "lenin said we should vote in elections in that book," so now you post it as a "refutation" whenever actual Leninists post the VERY SAME ARGUMENTS LENIN MAKES IN THAT BOOK. There's no point even summarizing it for you, you will just respond with more shitposts and ridiculous distortions. You are such an unbelievable fucking imbecile.

You're a LIBERAL, you fucking LIBERAL. Promotion of socdem politicians is what LIBERALS do.

Kek, this is quite entertaining.

I chuckled

waaawww the liberal just deployed his ultimate weapon, RIDICULE, you are sure to walk in the footsteps of your great rhetorical heroes, Colbert, John Stewart, and Chapo Trap House.

...

You're right. They can be "positive" forces, but they aren't communist forces. The people disagreeing with you are conflating the two because they can't think.

ooh, reaction images from TV shows, you are totally different from a Buzzfeed LIBERAL.

Who needs arguments when you can smear shit all over your body, amirite?

...

...

ebin

*blocks your path*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Social_Democratic_Labour_Party

Post-WWII the meaning of "social democracy" completely changed. More willful and deliberate historical illiteracy from liberals ITT.

*WWI

Unbelievable. The delusion is that we shouldn't be supporting social democrats. People magically think right wingers are losing some fairy tail battle, meanwhile unions are being destroyed, corporations are getting huge benefits, healthcare is being taken away. Everyone here is basically an accelerationist.

You shouldn't dox yourself user, it is bad form.

not my point

your point is you're a lib shitposter


Labour is just as complicit in all that, and in the Iraq war. The vast majority of Labour MPs belong dead in a ditch, Corbyn will never hold them accountable for their crimes against the workers of the world OR British workers. He's a lying coward.

hello anonymous my old friend

You cheeky fucking rose, making me laugh you git.

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liberals live in his head rent free

...

Looking at this thread it seems like the left truly is fucked. It cant even maintain solidarity.

...

Solidarity with what? Socdems? Are you retarded?

No solidarity to backstabbing, cop-loving, imperialist socdems.

The left has been marginalized and shattered by its enemies, infighting has nothing to do with it.

Lad the last time we were united Marx was still alive.

very good post

Read Lenin.

w h a t

see

You read Lenin. Lenin's whole point on participating in parliamentary democracy was to get your message out to a broader range of the proletariat and to also seem more legitimate (people will trust a party actually running in elections with a clear platform over an underground terrorist movement).

Parliamentary democracy cannot actually achieve anything in of itself. It's the participation in said bourgeois parliamentarianism that has something to offer. And that is petty concessions and spreading your message/legitimacy.

the berniefags left after the election, idiota

The first international dumbass, last time the black and red were united.

oh yeah there were clearly no divisions in the 1st international at the time, or among the "left" who weren't part of it

Just because something is united doesn't mean it has no divisions.

it's working in venezuela

A lot of people don't: they think that leftism will be fufilled by retarded smashies breaking enough stuff to look tough and thus end capitalism, when it won't, since the "street theater" shit is really just that, a play performance that doesn't change anything. It is nothing but pure jouissance, pure aesthetization of politics in the vein of fascism, just like Adorno warned us about.

They took it seriously because none of them took the time to study and read how FALC will come about. They have no idea about how the current capitalist economy functions besides being pissed at the big financiers and industrialists, although the latter aren't really of much consequence after the last financial crisis. They think that smashing their way to communism is all they need to do, which betrays their economic illiteracy. The point is to build the base upon which communism will stand. This means proper education, reading and even making enough money to wrest enough means of production to start a nucleus commune. All of our individual efforts should be directed towards that goal, and only that goal, all the while mutually coordinating with each other.

Yes. This is exactly what I've been thinking. We need to enable direct and organized communication.

What we need is some kind of decentralized social network for labor. A free, open-source, peer-to-peer network protocol by which we can educate one another, organize strikes and boycotts, set up cooperative enterprises, share resources, aggregate policy opinions, and so on. That would be the way into communism, IMO. The software would need to be modular in the way Linux is, so people can take out and put in whatever they like.

If we'd have such a computer program, we'd have the means to build a revolution.

Who else knows that Corbyn is gonna betray us but support him anyway?

I've seen everything, in ideological socialist spectrum, support Corbin or Bernie form supposedly Anarchists and all the way down to ☭TANKIE☭s.
I think those people are delusional, ignorant, ideologically lazy and ideologically dishonest.
Because they dont have a firm stance, they are not honest, any real socialist knows that parliamentary representatives under the bourgeois elections, are at best a bunch of lame ass reformist SucDems, there is no way around it.
If I offended some of these people, that I'm referring to, good! I hope you get the fuck out of here, you lame ass larping liberals.

...

You are trying to distort my message.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't use the infrastructure(communications for example)/tools of capitalism against itself.
but parliamentary elections will bring absolutely nothing, Capitalism will try to survive in one form or another, we need a violent revolution.
Social democrats always get in bed with Capitalists and scatter around a few left overs for the people and that's not the change that I want.

This is the most radical leftist site on the internet. If we can't do it, no one can.

Epic strawman

kys

Euthanize yourself.

>>>/reddit/

Look, the world is a shitty place, reality is crushing and we need means to cope with it until it changes, my inner child needs its moments to pretend. It's not serious analysis and nor should anyone think of it that way. This is why religion serves as the opiate the masses inject into their veins. Mao was right in creating the spirituality around himself, you can't get anywhere with people who have no sincere hopes, even if those hopes are wrong or childish it's just what people do and we need to incorporate those feelings into our actual, non idealist strategy.

The amount of tank LARPing in this thread is astronomical. Honestly, the average SocDem today is closer to the late Marx and the politics of the Second and Third Internationals then the average tankfag is to the politics of the Third International. At the end of the day SocDems like Corby are willing to actually make a Long March through the parliaments, and are willing to consider what it would take to actually win, while all the average tankcuck can do is LARP, screech "liberal" at everyone without an argument, assuming that dogma can replace arguments, and wallow in the obscurity of their tiny sects. What an infantile disorder :^)

also, holding SocDems accountable for Rosa's death today is just as childish as when anarkiddies act like every Marxist they meet is responsible for crushing Kronstadt and the Ukrainian Free Territory

ho leeee fuck you are delusional. I 100% GUARANTEE you have not read Marx and Lenin, no matter how much you protest and lie about it.

There are two kinds of socdems. The most common kind are those who use workers to propel themselves into power and then disempower worker-based institutions in order to placate the bourg in exchange for shitty state welfare programs and regulations which get repealed easily within a decade or so. The other use their power to strengthen worker organizations and allow them to directly challenge the bourgeoisie.
Allende is a perfect example of the first type. The same can be said of Bernie and basically every democrat in the US that claims to be a "leftist." Europe seems to be the only place where you can find the second type of socdem, which is why lots of their countries have high wages even without actual minimum wage laws and such.
Still you should never fully trust a socdem.

The difference is that killing Rosa was bad and Kronstadt and muh Ukraine was good. No serious ☭TANKIE☭ denies that we will carry out similar acts and purges in the future if we get to power, while the backstabbing socdem pretends that they will be best of friends to communists, while simultaneously screeching about evil ☭TANKIE☭s and declaring that they plan to hire thousands of new police officers when they get elected and running military veterans as half their candidates… put two and two together.

holy shit

This has got to be bait.

Fuck reformist, I used to be a hardliner for Melenchon. He's been sitting at the bourgeois table for decades, he doesn't care about socialism.

When will you ☭TANKIE☭s learn state-capitalism is just capitalism with a different boss and is nearly the same economic system used by Mussolini style fascists? When will you learn it never becomes communism or even full on state socialism?

Read a book.

...

>position held by Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky
what position is that, the one of feet resting on the crust of the earth?

After a mass process led by Chávez since at least 1992 (when he and other generals attempted a coup), after which he only won the presidency in 1999. No such mass movement exists in the UK at the moment.


Jesus, do you even know history? These three are so wildly different in thought that no single person could be "close to" these three at the same time. If anything, they're close to the Second International revisionists that just like them, used Marx as an excuse for parliamentary politics with no projections for the mass movement whatsoever (i.e. liberal politics). Only in very specific situations can participation in bourgeois parliaments be justified, and all of them involve a mass workers' militant movement actually existing (i.e. the SPD in it's early years, the Bolshevik's participation just before 1917).

Cheeky taffer.

don't forget he also survived a coup attempt through mass mobilizations of the people and by winning the loyalty of elements of the military and police force – something possible because they recognized it was in their interest to not be colonized, which can't be transplanted to British police and military

It is with what we have now.

Reading comprehension?

You do understand this is a revolutionary left site right?

There's nothing wrong with Holla Forums or for that matter any other leftist space that isn't also something wrong with the left in general.

First and foremost, left unity is only a thing in relation to the right, it is not and will not be a thing within the left, stop citing it internally.

Second, the ridiculous proliferation of personality cults among the general left will, we can only hope, be looked back on with scorn and derision.

Third, ideological purity/"integrity" is a nice way of saying "allergic to practical results." Democratic or otherwise, either you do something or you don't.

Talking of delusional did anyone see Labours announcement of their new trade deal with the EU thats being shilled all over the news?

Basically they want to cherrypick all the good parts of being in the EU and leave out all the bad parts. So we would have tariff free trade but no free movement of pedos. We would be outside the EU but have a better trade deal than any EU member state in the EU. Something that the EU has already said they would never agree to.

It's Syriza 2.0.

The only thing revolutionary about this site is the turn-table in your microwave for when you zap your hot-pockets.

That's not Labour's position though. It's to have *a* Customs Union with the EU, which is along the same lines as the deal Turkey presently has.

The trade off with that is an inability to sign new trade deals with the United States and other states over and above the ones the EU already has with those states.

This site is shitposting, book sharing and precious little else.

You know you can support parliamentarians/socdems in the short term while maintaining revolutionary goals in the long term

the only argument I see against this is something half-baked form of accelerationism that demands that living conditions never be improved lest the proletariat feels too comfy living under capitalism

no you can't, if you are for revolution, you MUST criticize opportunists.

IRC nigga, aka multiplayer notepad. Best thing that ever was. Then again, you might be talking sarcastically. I really mean what I say, just that people have no vision, and many are averse to working or meeting with people, or are too damn scared to do the things they need to do.

This means being able to do things like pool cash to buy land and tools, buildings, means of transport, and strategically arrange all this wherein the things we buy/scrounge/liberate will actually help us build communism. If you can, buy and live out of a van or camper and roll together, using your parents' home as a mailing address, etc. Internet is effectively free if you know how to find it, like by your library or university. You could even use it outside the building if you had a high enough gain antenna, with shit like this: instructables.com/id/DIY-Wifi-Extender-Cantenna-build-with-a-stand/
If you have a job, keep it, and save your paychecks, all the while looking for a way to increase it such that you can finally invest it in a clever way that can give you a material income, like land or tools, or even try the stock market to improve your holdings. Even Marx speculated to study capitalism and growth. You need an intimate knowledge of the capitalist political economy to be able to escape it, and if it can help you collect enough resources while staying under the radar, so be it.

Even retarded basic shit like this is useful; the point is to reacquaint ourselves with this sort of way of life where we don't just specialize at our jobs, but learn to repurpose everything around us to our favor, and not be afraid to do weird shit when it becomes advantageous. I am getting a diesel step/multistop van or a box truck to store shit and possibly live in, because this is the biggest truck that can be allowed to park on streets in my city overnight; I could also maybe even travel around in it, while I am building my commune. This is what I live for, and I know it will work, because fundamentally, once we have enough of a production base, we will become fully autarkic and escape the need to constantly work at shit under conditions that aren't to our liking. How many of us want to escape the retardation of working for a day for practically minimum? It's not even about not wanting a boss anymore, but no customers either; when "you become your own boss," you don't, because now your boss is the customer. Who wouldn't want that, honestly?

Thus, our commune of truly free, no-bullshit collaboration can be constructed. It is only a matter of setting up a good, original plan, and executing it.

learn2tactics

...

idea: let's build up our best possible critique of social democratic opportunists, obliterating their policy programs on all grounds from historical necessity to mainstream bourgeois-economic arguments, then collate the resulting criticisms and send them to the dominant centre/right parties, which we shall leave uncriticised since they merely operate a historical role without having any real agency of their own.

naturally should any of them have began on our side and then strayed from the path of righteous impotence we should of course make available any incriminating information (true, false or rumour) about their past membership of our organisations available to the press.

read Lenin you dunce.

Tbh famalams I feel really bad that I have to vote for parties that support flaming homos just to get the welfare state back.

What's wrong with supporting homos?

This makes a weird kind of sense.

There are no 'right wing' talking points that are trendy besides bashing multiculturalism (which in Europe is a direct result of increased globalism and no protectionism done by individual countries). The main talking points in Europe are spineless politicians defending themselves from an obvious lobby, that usually lobbies journalists as well. Doesn't matter if they got the label left or right on them.

Labour party over here in the Netherlands spend 4 years being hard lobbied by corporations, many members go from that party to a big corp or bank and many have a great education. Very typical. Whine about income equality, tax middle class more fuck over poor class while the rich can just work around increased taxes by going through loop holes or giving away stuff to big corps. That's why class conscious is needed, people are completely unaware of how fucked over they are by banks, pharma and all the industries that are controlled by the elite.

These issues won't be fixed by themselves. In 10 years time over here cost of living has increased, cost of houses has increased everything got more expensive but there is no salary growth. There were no sanctions happening nor any wars of note that would cause this. So it's obvious that the culprit to blame is the privileged elite class composed of internationalists, banks, gigacorps and big lobbies and of course the politician puppets.

the anarkiddies that did that shit back when SYRIZA became a thing are "learning"
they now switch their flags up a bit more, occasionally going for red flags, hammer and sickle, one guy even uses the tank

it's the same people that also go on about assad being literally hitler and either claim over a dozen US military bases in Syria doesn't has US ties or even justify it

what this tells me is that these guys are anti-germans, meaning either severely retarded or really cointelpro

g*d hates fags

- V. I. Lenin

And everywhere else is worse, so now what?

...

He's talking about the Bolsheviks fielding candidates, not about voting for Zionist socdems

Greek user here, I hate to be a pessimist and even though I like Corbyn, I tell you to never trust parliamentary leftists.

The Syriza betrayal is of a magnitude so big you cannot even imagine how we felt. I have hated them ever since, and most of all because they surrounded by socially progressives, and self-identified "marxist" intellectuals even today.

Exact same thing happened with us. Media kept on going on about how Trump is literally Hitler to the point where dumbfucks believed it and actually supported him

like fucking pottery

STOP PULLING QUOTES OUT OF CONTEXT AND ACTUALLY READ THE DAMN BOOK:
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/

When you are so zionist that you are legally banned from entering Israel.

I love how delusional ☭TANKIE☭s are, always Larping, thinking that the revolution is just around the corner.

When the USA keeps electing fascists and neoliberals, you morons will keep deluding yourself that the working class, who rightfully despises you, will somehow support teenage edgelords who want to destroy civilization.

Who gives a shit about America? They are a couple of years away from collapsing like the revisionist USSR.

Hi, Holla Forums. You have to go back.

it takes 5 mins to vote for a candidate (unless you live in a black county)
it's possible to be a radical but also participate in the parliamentary process for the sake of getting a bone thrown your way
if you're too OG for this then either start shooting cops or fuck off

i've noticed you post about gays a lot