To be or not to be

Is it possible to be a non-socialist (no venezuela, no ussr, okay nevermind, maybe ussr is fine, no dprk, no cuba) marxist that wants a post-capitalistic society or am I believing in a pipe dream?

Basically, I want socialism without calling it that, maybe Workerism, Syndicalism or some other shit, since the term repels so many people and attracts people whom I would never call comrades (like for instance, the muke)

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Basically, I want off this boat, cos its filled with people I really don't like, nor enjoy the company of, but the Titanic (capitalism) is still sinking.

Maybe drowning in the icy waters isn't such a bad alternative

Drowning yourself to spare us your retarded defeatism seems like a good course of action. I vote you do that.

Sure? Marx never really seperated communism into two distinct phases, just a progression of early communism (still marked with the birthmarks of the old society) to fully realised communism.

plz. What kinda question even is this? A rose by any other name is still a rose. I dont care if you call it a pink elephant, its communism.

Stay classy my man

Basically is for the purpose of furthering socialism in such a way that people's ideology doesn't contribute against it

I really feel, and it may be dumb, but I think actual working classes can be more attracted to things that look more like what they already believe in, than in things that are extraneus to them… like what Vygotski would say, you need people to be slowly attracted outside their comfort zone to simpler things before more advanced ones

At some point you still have to tell them about Marx, but using arguments instead of labels is in general a much better way to convince people.

shit thanks for reminding me that i have a exam in two days


Oh of course, I've already managed to convince my parents of how Marx was indeed absolutely correct of a many things by plainly explaining world news through marxist lenses. How for instance consumism can't go on forever, how the stock markets go down when workers' wages go up and so on
The list goes on…

But actual followers of Marx have had, much, less success in branding and selling their ideas to people

I came into contact with some MLM folks in my country, whose panflets were rather unreadable even

Yeah, I have an developmental psychology exam in a week and a few days myself

That's so easy to say when you come from a leftwing background where the ideas are already popular, whereas the family and background I live with are so inmensely right wing the only way I get to explain things is by thoroughly explaining exploitation by the higher classes and how they are in bed with parliamentary parties

In such situations I like to quote Adam Smith on the topic of rent profits being completely unrelated to the work put into management of property.


Am south american, and both Cuba and Venezuela are like lighting rods for right wingers. They just energize the right and have historically done so with their failures

The USSR kinda goes into that category too, but they actually did themselves a favor by actually going against Cuba's dumb policies in South America, and I kinda like a lot of what they did right, so I kinda give them a pass…

Am not a ☭TANKIE☭ though

any left-wing state is going to be. propaganda has no boundaries, silly prole.

Right wingers are not so cultured as to know Adam Smith here, I think you are mistaking my south american right wingers for yankie libertarians

These folks only know about hating anything that comes out of local left wing parties mouths, Cuba and Venezuela. They really couldn't care less about theory, until I begin telling them that they are being played by foreigners who basically use our country as a sweatshop and as a source of cheap commodities, that really does rile them up.

Kill yourself you fucking retard

B-but they say Obama's America was a left wing state out to the destroy the world too!

It doesn't matter if you live in an actual left wing state. It just matters if it smells remotely of what they think is left wing.

If they think you are their 'enemy', they'll just persecute you to the deep ends of the world. Think of Colombia, for instance, where anyone remotely smelling of left wing gets assassinated by narco paramilitaries

These are the same folks that say that Santos is a leftie too

Why did Latin American rightists collaborate with Obama-land then?

Sorry, I dont want to sound like I'm criticizing you, I just can't understand their thought process.

Which rightists?

Its fine, I don't take it as a criticism

I suppose you are talking about the top tier right wingers, the ones who still want TLCs (free trade agreements in spanish) with USA

Am talking about their base, the actual folks that walk in the streets, they honestly couldn't care less. Although if given an option, they would definitely get rid of their 'sell out' bosses in exchange for actual 'right wingers' or military junta types like Bolsonaro in Brasil

To them, 'left wing' is anything that wants to 'destroy their way of life'.

The only way to get through to them, is to switch the framing.

kys my defeatest scumlord

As for their relationship with Obamaland, South American right wingers believe Obamaland abandoned them to their luck during his period.

They wanted (and want Trump in particular to carry it out now) Obamaland to invade and knock out Venezuela and whatever 'left wing' governments in south america there are.

no, literally read Marx

Basically, what I want to say, and it might not be a great argument is: If Marx says Bourgeois Socialism exists (and is idealism), what makes it so that non-socialist Marxism can't exist?

At least in name only and for the purposes of furthering the study of Marxism, and also furthering the goal of having a non-capitalistic society

It may exist but he completely lambastes it and ridicules the idea behind it. It's in the Manifesto and he describes it as completely hypocritical so I'm not sure if it's the thing you want to emulate.
I empathize with the sentiment but it's been an idea thrown around for decades and has failed to work each time. As much as Socialism, Communism, and Marxism have been tainted by years of theory and propaganda they also carry a great deal of positive weight.
There's also no reason to try and avoid these arguments as you'll have to address the claims eventually regardless of what you call yourself.

Literally means nothing.
Still marxist buddy.
I mean there are non-marxist critiques of capitalism: developmentalism looks at capitalism through its imperialist techniques, Georgism focuses on capital in the form of resources compared to labour and Schumpeterianism basically says "lol capitalism is fucked long term". All of them, while having good elements, tend to lead me back to marxist analysis. So yeah, just read marx lad.

Erm, I didn't mean am a bourgeois socialist, I meant that I'd rather just be a non-socialist marxist, that's the argument I was trying to make.

B-but I didn't … ah, fuck it. I guess I did fuck up with my choice of words in the end and shouldn't have used that kind of argument, considering it was bound to be missunderstood.

Also, I know Marx lambasts 'bourgeois socialism', I only wanted to argue that if Marx considers such thing to exist, why can't non-socialist marxism exist, if only to fill the niche required to get right wingers to (begrugingly, as it has been in the case of those I've tried to introduce it to) introduce them to it

Whatever, I guess I'll just have to work with what I've got in the end in my country

Are you American? If so stop letting the right define the left. Changing the name is ridiculous especially in the new political climate in the U.S. Whatever new thing you make will just be accused of being "cultural gommunism" by the right eventual anyways so might as well just claim to be a commie even if your a social democrat at best. We need to shift the overton window to the left. If you cede ground to appease these assholes you're no better than a third-way democrat. The conversation in America shouldn't be "you're a commie OMG" It should be "You say you're a commie but you don't support the abolition of currency? You capitalist." Being a commie shouldn't be a dirty word, because it isn't. You mock Cuba but they have dratically reduced lung cancer and have a higher litericy rate than the U.S. While Puerto Rico suffers Cuba has already recovered.

I'm thinking of the Venezuelan opposition and the right-wing actors in the parliamentary coup in Brazil

Am South American. Specifically, Uruguayan

Being a communist here gets you associated to the litany of 'democrat socialists' called the Broad Front, which has been subverted by capitalist forces by quite a while and has been ruling the country for the past 13 years

Am trying to sign up to their left wing opposition group, the Popular Unity party (which includes MLM folks and non-Partido Comunista del Uruguay MLs) and also trying to come up with ways to get people from the right wing opposition to join up with Popular Unity

Hence why I am in such a predicament of trying to sell communism to a bunch of right wingers, in order to fight off a supposedly left wing party that's been subverted by capitalist thugs

Yeah. As I said, most of them only tactically like the USA, because they used to topple left wing governments in America. And have started to hate the USA since Bush'es times when they stopped toppling them and started their dumb policy of toppling governments outside of the Americas

Ah, "bourgeois socialism" can literally be read as "social democracy" nowadays.
What's the point then, either you stick to your guns or you drop them. Don't say your gun is merely a knife because of its bayonet. Honestly I can say this speaking from a nation where a mild socdem was called "Red Ed" and there was red baiting about him going from that to full on "WE ARE GOING TO COLLECTIVISE YOUR TOOTHBRUSH" and that bloke being the most popular Labour Leader in a long time: rapid change can happen. If someone had asked for a list of classcucked nations in Europe back in 2014 the UK would have been top; now we are in a state where radicalism is coming to the forefront and our shadow chancellor is advocating for actually existing socialism. Stick to your guns, organise an propagate agitpop. The time will come when power comes to you.
Well that or entryism, entryism works in bourgois labour parties.

I understand, the point I was trying to explain was that just calling your particular ideology something more appealing won't change the nature of it.
Marxism is inherently socialist, in particular Scientific Socialism.

You also don't seem to have a firm grasp of Marx's writings. Bourgeois socialism was not an entry to scientific socialism, instead it was a rival to it and was more in line with the contemporary capitalist system. It was reactionary to its core and have demonstrated that in deed during every crucial moment.
Calling your 'unique' socialist ideas non socialist is nonsensical and transparent.

Read more Marx kiddo

Damn that sucks, sorry the CIA fucked up your country. My best advice, appeal to regionalism, tell them most Americans are turning to socialism because capitalism has ultimately failed us and if they were under full American imperialism they would have ended up like Puerto Rico. A half state in hell and blocked from aid.

Most Americans want to help Puerto Rico and end the Cuba embargo and re-open ourselves to regionally duties but are being stopped do to capitalist forces in their endless greed.

This, make sure to tell them that in America many workers are turning against the system slowly but surely. That should make them think, because if America is the model of capitalist development and workers are turning against that system what does that say?

Regionalism in Uruguay is a thing, but not the way you think, most people here think Argentina is a failed product of our independence wars (Uruguay should be Argentina basically, and Buenos Aires should be to it, what Pennsylvania is to the US, basically a big city with no influence in federal politics), and that Brasil is an imperial power who is never aligned with us, and much less with its own people.

I suppose I've got to read the Capital (other than rely on others lecture and digestion of it) still, but I think you are misscharacterizing what I said.

I know this is asking a lot but can you start a thread on the political history of South America? As a burger I'm completely ignorant on south America. I'm fairly read and politically active(again for a burger, I live in a military junta pretending to be a liberal democracy) and still don't know much about anything south of the border of Mexico.


When I say 'Uruguay should be Argentina' btw, I mean literally, Uruguay should be (if things had gone Artigas way) just another state of an equilibrated United Federation of the River Plate (more or less), instead of being a quasi-independent state that relies on Argentina's and Brasil's ill and imperialist will.

Also Argentina is pretty much a failed state, born out of its capital city (Buenos Aires) elite's ill will towards the other provinces (in particular ill will towards Uruguay)

Hilariously though, Uruguay's been more successful on its own, than the whole of Argentina, at least socially and infrastructure wise, and twice as much as Brasil, even though it is blatantly out-produced, out-numbered and the list goes on

'Che' Guevara even came here in the 70s and said no bloody wars of national liberation and guerrilla were needed here, kind of. Although am not very well versed on that part

I guess I should start another thread, but that'll be another day

I get what you're are saying a bit but you're throwing a lot of history at me with little context. Although it's good that you understand the socialist roots of your country but you need to dumb it down for your average person. However to further your own understanding and help developed socialist talking points which is what you're asking we need a detailed history of South America, then we need a dumb down version to share with the rest of the socialist community. You're on the right track but don't be afraid to call yourself communist. You give the right power by letting them define you and strategically calling them out these disinformation tactics is the best way to convince those that can be saved and those that are the enemy. You care and are on the right path.