How can any prole hate Socialism...

How can any prole hate Socialism? I just don't understand why so many working people hold such an intense hatred of an ideology that stands to serve their interests first and foremost. For example, how could a worker possibly object to getting more in return for their labour? How could they object to democratised workplaces and the abolition of exchange value considerations in the provision of use values (at least those necessary for a comfortable life)? To the elimination of capitalist class power; an end to the despotism of capital and its absorption, by exhaustion of their muscles and minds, of their alienated labour? Greater freedom to pursue their interests and social lives as the labour required to turn a societal surplus is reduced by the expansion of the labouring population?

Take Holla Forums, many there are barely subsisting, yet for some reason they spend their time advocating for the wholesale slaughter of anyone trying to improve their lot in life.

It truly boggles the mind.

Other urls found in this thread:

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm
twitter.com/AnonBabble

it's not so much economic socialism people oppose, but all the tranny/sjw/student/self flagellating nonsense

Here's a list:
Capitalist Hegemony
The fact that capitalism has created such vast productive forces (they don't realize that it has diminishing returns)
Bourgeois propaganda, especially the "freedom" shit
Being blinded by ideology
The spectacle
But mostly
APATHY

There is no socialism as distinct from "economic" socialism. Issues of racial bias find themselves upheld by various economic factors that are broadly resolved upon the transition to socialism.

Propaganda and capitalist realism. They cannot conceive of the fact that a more equal society is possible and alternatives not only historically in their eyes "failed" but these post capitalist ideals have been made to seem dystopian by not only the bourgeois but by living under a capitalism society for so long. Alienated, people turn to consumption and don't think about these things a lot. They become apathetic and can't conceptualize change.

The drive toward greater automation, and more efficient organisational forms, is primarily a capitalist fetish tbqh

But yeah, the rest is broadly the case tbf

What is more alienating; performing alienated, but necessary, labour for Capital, or living a life subsidised by the state in order to maintain demand after redundancy once automation seizes an industry?

Because the latter is our future, and I don't know what pathologies will develop in the minds of the idle consumers.

I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand this.
t. brainlet

Apathy is death.

Because you use words like "prole", and have no self-awareness to how ridiculously pretentious and full of shit you sound.

People will still do labor under socialism. But in return, they will recieve non-transferable labor vouchers. Otherwise, they will be producing their own things to be used by themselves.

BECAUSE YOU HATE IRISH PEOPLE

Work for Capital is alienated labour, yet is also necessary for the labourer's subsistence and thus can give them some form of purpose, especially if they happen to enjoy their job. However, automation is more and more seizing upon all manner of capitalist industries, supplanting workers, thanks to a capitalistic fetish for technological innovation and implementation (it is a fetish because it ignores labour's role in production of value, assigning the peculiar qualities of labour-power to the means of production themselves).

In order that value may be realised, this newly redundant class must be given state subsidy, in the form of exchange-value, so as to purchase these commodities and thus realise surplus value. For more on this, see Capital Vol 2.

You misunderstand me, I am talking about Capitalist production:
See:

I agree, if capitalism reaches the point where we become idle consumers without any labour relations we indeed will live in a dire state.

You are a fucking retard.

Requires far too much reading for the average pleb.

This.
I'd like to talk a little about a problem our side has. A lack of any immediate appeal to the working class. Most people don't read political theory. They base all of their knowledge of politics on what they saw on CNN and FOX news. the only way we're going to appeal to the masses is if we try to speak to them on their level. We must try to understand them. A lot of people will disagree with this, but it's true. We're going to have to speak to liberals on their level. We're going to have to try to understand why right-wingers fear us so much. Let's start with regular liberals and SJWs. A large majority of normies are right-wing liberals who call themselves republicans, or centrists who call themselves liberals. Republicans probably can't be helped, they're classcucked as fuck, and sometimes racist. The only way to change them is to either show them socialism works, or to show them how much capitalism fucking sucks. This can be achieved by reading them theory after they've been working for 6 hours at a dead-end job. Next we have self-described liberals and SJWs. A large majority of these people can be helped, but they're scared socialism will genocide gays like the meanie soviets did. They don't read theory. A large majority of them hold prejudices against white people, and this cannot be tolerated. We need to find some other platforms to agree with them on. After all, if all we ever do is disagree, they will never appreciate what we have to say. We can agree with them on a platform of environmentalism. We can agree with them on a platform of ending homelessness, we can agree with them on their hatred for Trump (Notice; none of these things we agree with them on have anything to do with genociding wy pepo!). All the while, we must make sure they know that we are far-left, and not centrist, because if they think we are just like them, they will not move left. Next we have ancaps. These are people who don't like the guberment, and don't like roads, and think corporations can do anything big gov can do. These guys probably can't be helped, but we could agree with them on hating the current system, and propose ideas that makes them like big gov. Shit like having roads and border walls (i doubt a corporation would care about immigration!). Beyond that, they're probably bourgeois and will not change. The only way they ever will is if they try having compassion for their fellow man. Up on the authoritarian side of things, we have national "socialists". These guys think hitler did nothing wrong and wy pepo are being systematically genocided by immigration. If we're trying to appeal to them, we could talk about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. We could talk to them about how any regime that allows capitalism is doomed to fail because it will bleed resources from the country (again corporations don't have the best interest of the country at heart!). We can and should convince them that we aren't out to genocide white people, capitalism naturally destroys ethnic boundaries via globalism, the rich don't see people as black or white, but as objects they can extract surplus value from. We can talk to them about what true socialism is and guide them to it. You cannot be nationalist and be a capitalist at the same time. We can and should convince them gays are people, women are people etc, but they will probably not believe us on that point unless the former agreements have been had. In my humble opinion, we have too many armchair idealists within our ranks. These are people who say we must not compromise. True, on any economic points, we must not, or else we'd just be capitalists again. But socially, we must be malleable. People think with their feelings, and past prejudices. We must break prejudice and appeal to feelings. We must look at national "socialists" as –misguided– people. They are poor, they are shunned by society, and they are largely irrationally afraid of huanuddah shoah. These are areas we must exploit. We must look at normie liberals as the proles we want to save. We must look at ancaps as people who lack compassion. If you really want people to move left, this is the strategy we should incorporate into propaganda.

Format this differently and it might just be screencap worthy

It didn't turn out looking the way i'd hoped. I tried but i'm tired as hell. I'll repost it and break the wall and remove some grammar errors though.

I'd like to talk a little about a problem our side has. A lack of any immediate appeal to the working class- Most people don't read political theory, and a promise of utopia won't do anything to move them. They base all of their knowledge of politics on what they saw on CNN and FOX news, or whatever happens to their wages, or being fired. the only way we're going to appeal to the masses is if we try to speak to them on their level– We must try to understand them. A lot of people will disagree with this, but it's true; We're going to have to speak to liberals on their level. We're going to have to try to understand why right-wingers fear us so much.
Let's start with regular liberals and SJWs. A large majority of normies are right-wing liberals who call themselves republicans, or centrists who call themselves liberals. Republicans probably can't be helped, they're classcucked as fuck, and sometimes racist. The only way to change them is to either show them socialism works, or to show them how much capitalism fucking sucks- this can be achieved by reading them theory after they've been working for 6 hours at a dead-end job.
Next we have self-described liberals and SJWs. They are proles as well, so they also don't read theory. A large majority of these people can be helped, but they're scared socialism will genocide gays like the meanie soviets did. A large amount of them, while not the majority, hold prejudices against white people, and this cannot be tolerated- it distracts from class struggle. We need to find some other platforms to agree with them on. After all, if all we ever do is disagree, they will never appreciate what we have to say.
We can agree with them on a platform of environmentalism. We can agree with them on a platform of ending homelessness, we can agree with them on their hatred for Trump (Notice; none of these things we agree with them on have anything to do with genociding wy pepo!). All the while, we must make sure they know that we are far-left, and not centrist, because if they think we are just like them, they will not move left.
Next we have ancaps. These are people who don't like the guberment, hate being taxed, don't like roads, and think corporations can do anything big government can do. These guys probably can't be helped, but we could agree with them on hating the current system, and propose ideas that draws them toward big gov (just to break down some irrational fears they have of authority, so don't despair, libertarian socialists)- we'll talk to them about shit like having roads and border walls (i doubt a corporation would care about immigration!). Beyond that, they're probably bourgeois and will not change– The only way they ever will is if they attempt to have compassion for their fellow man.
Up on the authoritarian side of things, we have national "socialists". These guys think hitler did nothing wrong and wy pepo are being systematically genocided by immigration. If we're trying to appeal to them, we could tell them about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. We could talk to them about how any regime that allows capitalism is doomed to fail because it will bleed resources from the country (again corporations don't have the best interest of the country at heart!). We can and should convince them that we aren't out to genocide white people, capitalism naturally destroys ethnic boundaries via globalism, the rich don't see people as black or white, but as objects they can extract surplus value from. We can and should talk to them about what true socialism is and guide them to it. You cannot be nationalist and be a capitalist at the same time. We can and should convince them gays are people, women are people etc, but they will probably not believe us on that point unless the former agreements have been had.
In my humble opinion, we have too many armchair idealists within our ranks. These are people who say we must not compromise- this is true, on any economic points, we must not, or else we'd just be capitalists again. But socially, we must be malleable. People think with their feelings, and past prejudices. We must break prejudice and appeal to feelings. We must look at national "socialists" as –misguided– people– They are poor just like the rest of us, they are shunned by society just like us, and they are largely irrationally afraid of huwite genocide, which is not entirely unfounded, but quite ignorant. These are areas we must exploit. We must look at normie liberals as the proles we want to save, and we must look at ancaps as people who lack compassion. If you really want people to move left, this is the strategy we should incorporate into propaganda.

I dont know about other people, but its easy to understand why the /pol types dont like socialism. It means ppl that dont look like them may get ahead or match their social status. The more intelligent among us wouldnt mind but intelligent doesnt exactly describe /pol.

I'd like to talk a little about a problem our side has. A lack of any immediate appeal to the working class- Most people don't read political theory, and a promise of utopia won't do anything to move them. They base all of their knowledge of politics on what they saw on CNN and FOX news, or whatever happens to their wages, or being fired. the only way we're going to appeal to the masses is if we try to speak to them on their level– We must try to understand them. A lot of people will disagree with this, but it's true; We're going to have to speak to liberals on their level. We're going to have to try to understand why right-wingers fear us so much.

Let's start with regular liberals and SJWs. A large majority of normies are right-wing liberals who call themselves republicans, or centrists who call themselves liberals. Republicans probably can't be helped, they're classcucked as fuck, and sometimes racist. The only way to change them is to either show them socialism works, or to show them how much capitalism fucking sucks- this can be achieved by reading them theory after they've been working for 6 hours at a dead-end job.

Next we have self-described liberals and SJWs. They are proles as well, so they also don't read theory. A large majority of these people can be helped, but they're scared socialism will genocide gays like the meanie soviets did. A large amount of them, while not the majority, hold prejudices against white people, and this cannot be tolerated- it distracts from class struggle. We need to find some other platforms to agree with them on. After all, if all we ever do is disagree, they will never appreciate what we have to say.

We can agree with them on a platform of environmentalism. We can agree with them on a platform of ending homelessness, we can agree with them on their hatred for Trump (Notice; none of these things we agree with them on have anything to do with genociding wy pepo!). All the while, we must make sure they know that we are far-left, and not centrist, because if they think we are just like them, they will not move left.

Next we have ancaps. These are people who don't like the guberment, hate being taxed, don't like roads, and think corporations can do anything big government can do. These guys probably can't be helped, but we could agree with them on hating the current system, and propose ideas that draws them toward big gov (just to break down some irrational fears they have of authority, so don't despair, libertarian socialists)- we'll talk to them about shit like having roads and border walls (i doubt a corporation would care about immigration!). Beyond that, they're probably bourgeois and will not change– The only way they ever will is if they attempt to have compassion for their fellow man.

Up on the authoritarian side of things, we have national "socialists". These guys think hitler did nothing wrong and wy pepo are being systematically genocided by immigration. If we're trying to appeal to them, we could tell them about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. We could talk to them about how any regime that allows capitalism is doomed to fail because it will bleed resources from the country (again corporations don't have the best interest of the country at heart!). We can and should convince them that we aren't out to genocide white people, capitalism naturally destroys ethnic boundaries via globalism, the rich don't see people as black or white, but as objects they can extract surplus value from. We can and should talk to them about what true socialism is and guide them to it. You cannot be nationalist and be a capitalist at the same time. We can and should convince them gays are people, women are people etc, but they will probably not believe us on that point unless the former agreements have been had.

In my humble opinion, we have too many armchair idealists within our ranks. These are people who say we must not compromise- this is true, on any economic points, we must not, or else we'd just be capitalists again. But socially, we must be malleable. People think with their feelings, and past prejudices. We must break prejudice and appeal to feelings. We must look at national "socialists" as –misguided– people– They are poor just like the rest of us, they are shunned by society just like us, and they are largely irrationally afraid of huwite genocide, which is not entirely unfounded, but quite ignorant. These are areas we must exploit. We must look at normie liberals as the proles we want to save, and we must look at ancaps as people who lack compassion. If you really want people to move left, this is the strategy we should incorporate into propaganda.

Does this mean someone liked my post?

as opposed to what other kind of socialism?

I'd reckon so! Capped.


Honestly man, I ask myself the same question every day. seems to hit the nail right on the head.

lmaoing @ your life commie shits

Another episode of Holla Forums thinking we're liberals

Burgerstani here. Some reasons are…

1. Muh gorillions. Yes they believe it.
They equate communism with mass killing.
2. Commies want to take my toothbrush.
They conflate personal and private property and understand NEITHER.
3. Racism. Socialism is when the government does stuff so when blacks and migrants get welfare that's socialism.
4. They just don't fucking think and are made stupid by the conditions of their life. Work, spectacle, drugs, atomization.

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A majority of outspoken anti-communists are petty bourg faggots and their failsons/daughters. Most proles don't actually care all that much.

lol

u too bb

...

Well, that's part of the problem isn't it? Too many people associate us with liberals. Let's be honest here there are a lot of liberals that call themselves Marxists or use hammer and sickle profile pictures. These people often spout off deeply triggering and problematic crap and drive poor whites into the hands of the aut-right. How can we distance the left from liberals without driving the liberals away from real leftism?

By changing some of our symbolism and shit of course.

so you're saying all those twitter accounts with hammer and sickles are just liberals LARPing as socialists?

Not knowing what socialism is and booj propaganda telling them that everything they hate about capitalism is actually due to socialism

Bourgeoisification. Things like college education, home ownership, and retirement investments all act to suppress class consciousness because they elevate the worker above their class status. Give them a college education and now they have authority over other workers and have a high-demand skill that empowers them to negotiate for higher wages and benefits without a union. Give them property and now they are invested in the real estate market and impacted by property taxes. Get them invested in the market and now they're impacted by capital gains taxes and market fluctuations and interest rates.

A prole that has been thoroughly bourgeoisified is hardly distinguishable from petty booj. They're labor aristocracy. The thing about their elevated class status, though, is that it is all illusionary wealth built on debt. As long as the illusion remains these people have ZERO material reason to support socialism. The illusion is fragile, though. 2008 was the first crack, which is why interest in socialism exploded after the crisis. The next crisis will hopefully destroy the illusion entirely.

And it looks like its coming soon

The inner machinations of the prole's mind are an enigma

Because a century of anti communist meme arguments has distracted people from ever knowing that those ideas ever existed.

Keep telling yourself that, leftist.

What "wealth and opportunity"?

Bat'ko is a liberal?

Running water, for one. Lots of nice first world shit you can't get in a socialist country. The fact that you can't pay for college with a minimum wage job is a personal issue for you that has nothing to do with capitalism.

*Laughs in Albanian*

Not an argument.

Trying to bring to our side tiny internet niche political ideologies that directly contradict ours is a total waste of time. Hardcore liberals and conservatives only slightly less so. What you want to spend your time on is speaking to the largely non-political and apathetic masses, learning what makes them tick so you can tailor your message to them. Forget ancaps especially, by focusing on this tiny group of losers you effectively make yourself a loser too. We're losing to the alt right because they know the importance of capturing the middle. Why would you waste your time trying to convert someone polar opposite of you?

Bourgeoisification isn't a conspiracy, and I don't recall saying anything about a conspiracy. I was just describing the material realities for most workers that are anti-socialist. They are materially invested in capitalism and so they support capitalism. It's all supported by debt and superprofits, though, and will blow up in their faces someday. It's not sustainable.

The ones posting idpol garbage certainly are.

It's because of over a hundred years of highly potent anti-socialist propaganda.

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Why are westerners so fucking autistic its no wonder you fucking polys keep crying over being replaced by brown

Socialist countries generally had objectively better living circumstances for their citizens than capitalist countries of similar levels of development.

Better luck next time, class cuck.

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm
>The chief defect of all hitherto existing materialism – that of Feuerbach included – is that the thing, reality, sensuousness, is conceived only in the form of the object or of contemplation, but not as sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively. Hence, in contradistinction to materialism, the active side was developed abstractly by idealism – which, of course, does not know real, sensuous activity as such.
tl;dr: humans aren't robots who react identically to being put on one side of a social relation or another

I dont think is what people dislike in the left, i think is because the left act like as intelectual aristocracy instead of organizing the workers, people have their own opinion on social issues and class consciousness can only be build with struggle and struggle can only be build with organization.

Sauce?

the labour aristocracy (read:most workers in the industrialized west) is not a proletariat

Because

a) Most people (including most people here) believe anti-communist propaganda about muh trillion killed by Stalin

b) The bourgeoisie in countries within the imperialist alliance can afford to give the proles enough concessions (combined with neoliberal education and constant propaganda) to keep them compliant

c) Actually being a socialist requires you to be willing to fight and die for the revolution. This is the difference of internet petty-bourg kids larping and irl socialists. This will only happen when the prole has literally nothing left to lose, hence expecting this of the proletariat of the imperialist coalition is wishful thinking.

For some countries, i'd add the fact that there isn't a movement that has adequately developed theory to the point where their strategy goes past syndicalism. This will change in a few years, but a lot of work needs to be done.

Ebin

They don't really consider their lot. Most common people of any stripe are and have historically been quite willing to adopt an "I'll take what I can get" attitude towards life when they have a stable supply of food, security and distractions and consequentially possess little more political inclination that what is spoonfed to them. The masses won't even stand up - much less pick up arms - until their subsistence or progeny is directly threatened.

This is perceptive. Not something much of this board wants to hear, though.

Most humans have an innate biological in-group preference. They will side with their geographical region, ethnicity, religion, nationality, linguistic group and/or kin above higher ideals like global class solidarity. Basically a prole normie empathizes with the petite bourgeoisie or bourgeoisie in his town or nation more than his fellow prole in a land thousands of miles away.

If it so innate why does it need to be legislated and institutionalized?

You have the order backwards, those are results of biology not the other way around. Riddle me this user, if I offered you a choice between killing an immediate family member or someone you have never met half way around the world which would you pick and why is your choice not based purely on biological in-group preference?

why is it?

From an evolutionary standpoint, because we are biologically predisposed to pas our genes and those of our closer relatives on.

How can the worker be authentic and complete if you rob him of his identity? National Bolshevism is the answer.

so why do adopted children get attached to their adoptive family?

Many if not most people hate their bosses though

That's one hell of a false equivalence. Obviously people will favor those who they actually interact with and have a favorable relationship with over someone they've never met, but that's certainly not the sort of relationship most workers have with the ruling class. Ethnicity and such aren't the issue in that situation- a better comparison would be if you forced someone to choose between their boss and some working class dude on the other side of the world.
Hell, just look at the aut-rightists- despite all their obsessing over race, they fucking hate leftists and libs of the same ethnicity while they're more likely to be favorable towards reactionaries regardless. I once saw a thread on 4/pol/ where someone posted ISIS propaganda videos and the general reaction was about how "redpilled" they were

Because humanity is retarded and in the wrong side of natural selection while it pretends to be the coolest and most developed bunch in the Earth

I don't deny that government run healthcare can work in a 95% white country. That's not real socialism. Vote for enough socialists and those countries will collapse from mass immigration.

What? Why would socialists allow mass immigration? This doesn't make sense.

I don't think anyone hates the idea of socialism itself, but more the annoying internet activists.

they hate the vanguard that fucks them over in some countries that have turned into dictatorships,
i dont think anyone really hates economical equality

Because the white middle class is "the one percent" on a global scale, exploiting the third world. Their ideology demands forced redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. Maybe you would stop at the very very very rich, and not extend those complaints to the moderately rich, but what's the logic there?

More "lefties" sucking up to reactionaries. "Hurr, we're not Liberals, we're just as violent and hateful as you!"

Im a working class (car mechanic) and I am a right winger who hates socialism. The reason for this is simple: leftist worldview is wrong and extremely harmful for me.

Nah, not really, everyone I know in fact enjoys capitalism. All the doctors in our society seem to enjoy it. All the engineers in our society seem to enjoy it. All the business owners seem to enjoy it. All computer people seem to enjoy it. Hell, I myself live in a tiny mansion of money I've built with my own two hands, working alone or a friend most of the time. Learned how to repair (most) car parts over a youtube, I shit you not. Wasnt born with a silver spoon up my ass, wasnt born with above average intelligence, with special opportunities, or anything special. Didnt even go to university. Just started helping and trying to fix cars in the neighborhood, and later on started getting phone calls to fix cars for money.

Now, my biggest problems are taxes and government regulation.

How can anyone love you peasant larpers? You have the ability to move from the plot of land you were born on. You have the ability to take loans, start businesses, crowdfund projects, make money in trillion different ways!
Buy some tools you good for nothing retards, go to youtube and watch a video or two on how to fix sinks, how to install ac's, go and pick up mushrooms in the woods after the rain (I do this every now and then, nice money in it), BE USEFUL for once in your life.

YOU ARE A FAILURE OF A POPULAR MOVEMENT, BECAUSE MORE OF THE POPULATION IS AGAINST YOU, and for a good reason.

No one complains about capitalism, it serves us all fine. Only people without marketable skills complain about markets.
SO WHO IS LEFT TO FIGHT FOR SOCIALIST CAUSES???????????
It is not industrial workers: whole heavy industry is either automated, or in China/Pakistan.
It is not highly skilled, highly educated workers: they are all receiving 6 digits starting under capitalism.
It is not small business owners: their profits might be razor thin in the first 5 years, but these people are passionate, driven, and PROUD of the things THEY have accomplished by themselves and on their own. It's a comfy living living with a lot of perks, even if you dont make it and remain in the low income bracket your whole working life.

And now finally, this brings me to the socialists.
WHO ARE SOCIALISTS TODAY???
Unskilled. Uneducated. Humanities students. McJobbies, service sector employees. High school tier part time jobs. WHO IS VOTING FOR THE SOCIALIST PARTIES??? WORTHLESS FUCKING STUDENT SCUM, not a single worker or a tax payer among them.

So yeah. I am remaining a car mechanic till I gather enough cash to go to uni and get myself one of those GOOD degrees (engineering most likely), and join the higher income, higher class of society. ALL THANKS TO CAPITALISM. In the meantime voting for the party that wants to get rid of the tax yoke, feral minorities looting and burning my neighborhood, regulate every breath I take, keep me docile and disarmed, and forbid me to change my own lightbulb without their licence for fucking lightbulb changing.

Here's a free advice for all of you Famine: the ideology (socialists) out there. You OWE people what you promise. You already starved and murdered more people than the Nazis. You already enslaved half of the planet for a whole century. No one wants to go trough that shit again.
So go and build your fucking socialism BEFORE you come to ask for/take my shit.

Again, 90% of the population is already thriving in capitalism, rich and poor. Only complainers are those who do not work anyway, who have no marketable skills, no (relevant) education, no reason to be entitled to any better anyway.

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Yeah, you don't hate socialism, you hate a strawman you've been conned into believing by the media. If you're a worker, you keep all that you've worked for under socialism, but you don't get to make money off of others through rent or private property ownership. And since you probably have gotten your idea of private property from the media as well, let me tell you that private property and personal property are two different things, and we support the latter.

Seriously, read about what you're talking about before forming your opinions. This reads like a boomer post.

Not true,the average prole hate socialism and any form of left politics,either through ignorance(propaganda,religion,etc.) or apathy created by capitalism itself.

For instance,someone in my family said a certain politician in my country is a commie,i laughed and asked : "What is a commie?" he didn't fking know and got extremely defensive and mad at me,telling me to go to Cuba if i love comunism that much,i laughed it off cause well it was pretty funny and calmed him down,the thing is that he worked like a motherfucker for..idk his wholelife,has a shitty low middle class house and is fighting himself without even knowing why.

Nah, screw you and screw socialism. Capitalism is working perfectly well for almost whole population, only exception being a tiny, obscure, weird, unskilled (in relevant skills), uneducated (in relevant education), fringe of the population. Going by the socialist party voters in most western countries, its mostly just a phase for dumb student children.

Who the fuck even has a problem with capitalism???
The doctors are paid well. The engineers are paid well. The plumbers are paid well. Mechanics, electricians, EVERYONE remotely useful is getting MORE than enough to have a luxurious living.
Your 200 years old holy prophet Marx (pbuh) predicted that we wont be able to have cheap food, cheap tvs, utilities, cars, and vacations. Clearly, he was wrong.

As I said, only people doing the complaining, are people without relevant skills and education. People without marketable skills complaining about the market. Mostly welfare rabble and students.

Here's a fun fact for you internet socialists: you are not peasants in Tsarist Russia. You can take out loans. You can move from the place you were born in. You can take out loans. You can start businesses. You can invest on the stock markets. You can put your own businesses on the stock market. You can work part time, you can accumulate debt free capital.

YOU CAN DO SHIT OTHER THAN COMPLAINING.
Working class masses are TOO BUSY and TOO ANNOYED with your sob story delusions about enslavement, about you preaching "more shit for everyone if only x", about paying a hidden tax to the boss under capitalism.

I HAVE NO BOSS. MOST OF THE WORKING CLASS STARTS ITS OWN BUSINESS AT SOME POIND . I have reasonable amount of cash. I dont need you. Fuck off unemployable student rabble, and old politicians milking the easiest voting block out there.

Sounds a lot like what Musk is doing with his cars, tbqhfam.

Nothing you say has any value or relevance

Official board pbfag coming through. Avert your eyes you fucking poors.
Thanks daddy capitalism for rewarding my 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧hard work🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Plenty of employable people hate capitalism. Many of my engineer and other stem undergrad classmates hated capitalism. Tons of people going into public sector law jobs hate capitalism. I can promise you that plenty of private sector lawyers and pro-capitalist engineers are going to switch sides when they get sick of 80+ hour work weeks. Getting six figures a year doesn't mean shit when you're living in DC, NYC or SF and you're getting worked to death. Even my nice Christian, mathematician mother hates capitalism, and my lawyer father was a Marxist Leninist.
Were cumin bucko.

yes, and vast majority of them go bankrupt and get into financial problems. You are classcucked, very very hard.

not everyone buys their poptarts off fucking ebay

Reminder that Sudakulaks destroyed food in Venezuela

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Stop typing in caps, hysterical boomer. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, every single benefit brought to workers by capitalism is built on credit and superprofits fueled by imperialism, which is a ecologically destructive and unsustainable model.

Feel free to go on more emotional rants, but all you're doing is dodging arguments and further exposing your autism. Also, pic related is you

This is the average American. This is why change is impossible.

Yeah. We are enjoying capitalism. Most of (working) society has it pretty well.

I know a guy who goes around collecting trash paper and bottles and scrap metals and whatnot, officially unemployed and on benefits, but actually working 8 hours a day 6 days a week, selling the paper to the recycling centers, and buying prostitutes once a week.

So much for the unbearable oppression.

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I know a guy who works 6 days a week while being crushed by mortgage, with fear what would happen to him if he would lose his job and was no longer able to support his family.

So much for glorious capitalism

If the masses are so oppressed… why is there no massive support for your fringe weirdo 'revolution, any time now'? It's like the masses are having it easy or something. Its like every time you see a "leftist uprising" on the news, its 20 basketweaving degree students, or occupy wallstreet children, or some other non-workers in general.

Lol, as I said, your bullshit has no popular support. High skill people enjoy capitalism. Hell even low skill people (car mechanics such as myself) are enjoying capitalism. Which leaves who… welfare rabble and students?

Have fun with your revolution, I'll be comfy sitting in my chair, drinking cold beer, torrenting something interesting to watch, lightly going over the entry exams and subject matter for the degree I want, and eventually join the high skill people, and retire at 50 or something, or work in a fucking office, push pen around, solve problems with my brain instead of my hands, be rich, have it easy, enjoy the free market and free exchange with all the other individuals who picked a marketable skill out there.

so much for sacred private property

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Most haven’t of knowledge of why they are undergoing social domination.

As I've said, it's just a phase for the university children. As soon as you get a marketable skill going on, and start making money, you start thinking about starting a family, retirement, picking up a hobby such as gardening, etc.

Basically you become too busy raking in cash to worry about historical dialectical material conditions of neccessary inevitable theory of surplus […] blah blah blah blah fucking blah.
You go shopping for a comfier chair, or a bigger tv.

Yeah that’s why the “middle class which experienced this is slowly fading away to non-existence under the boot of Capital.

I find it interesting you didn't respond to my second post.

You're almost there

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now we're certain it's just a contrarian troll.

lol?

flat tax is a fair tax if you ask me
need a road? pay for it yourself, and with other people who want it
need healthcare? pay a doctor yourself
need x? pay for it yourself

why should we all use the same public services, and yet pay different amounts for these exactly the same public services?

Systems of oppression such as ours can sustain themselves for a long while, as evidenced by the surprising endurance and resilience of slave-societies and the old European feudal order. The argument from lack of support is a fairly weak one, and fails to address any of the arguments put forth by the left. It is, essentially, a rhetorical device used to avoid debate.

As for the masses "having it easy", this is a matter of perspective. The great mass of people in the West certainly do live in relative material abundance when compared with those in the third-world, but within these societies there are still the immense and persistent stressors of inequality, poverty, and unemployment that are the hallmarks of Capitalism. Further, to credit Capitalism and not democratic struggle with the high (though declining) living standards enjoyed by the majority in the West is to display a profound ignorance of the ways in which Capital operates.

In any case, there is massive and growing discontent with the effects of neoliberalisation, as evidenced by a variety of left-wing populist movements springing up right across the Western bourgeois democracies. With exchange-value coming to play an ever increasing role in the provision of necessary use-values, in addition to a shift from demand-side to supply-side economic formulations putting downward pressure on wages while expanding the size, both relative and absolute, of that portion of the population surplus to the requirements of Capital, this discontent is only growing. This will become especially apparent as automation extends further into the professions and service sector, with massive layoffs thanks both to a capitalistic fetish for machinery and in order to maintain a competitive advantage relative to other producers. There will now no longer be enough wage-earners left to absorb the sheer volume of goods produced, and thus Capital accumulation slows down or stops entirely as even fictitious assets collapse.

user corporation taxes are only 10%.
"What is civic mutual need". America would lose a war with Russia purely because its population is too fucking sick to fight. The nations of Europe learnt that like a century ago you moron.

Exchange-value should not play a role in the provision of necessities; there should be no need to scrimp and save to achieve the bare minimum requisite for anything resembling a passable life.

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all taxes should be voluntary if you ask me anyway
i do not understand the need for involuntary tax anyway, why should we all be taxed anyway? just let the people pay for what they think they need and want themselves

involuntary taxation is the last remain of feudalism/dictatorship if you ask me, one of the few injustices left in our society


i seriously cant grasp why the hell are the masses entitled to anything
listen, resources arent unlimited, so why "should" necessities be given out for free to the masses? i dont buy it for a second, how do you justify this, stuff just being given out for no reason, as if there's infinite resources out there

call me crazy or fascist or polyp or ancap or whatever, but i am 99% sure that the average person on the street revels in income inequality anyway
its a badge of honor and a source of pride for most working class people, its a source of validation for everyone who chose a more difficult path instead of studying for a useless zimbabwean hip hop dialects degree, and now has to work McJobs to pay off this utterly useless degree debt
and while basically no right wing prole dominates the hierarchy, he is still very happy to be a part of it, and defend it, because even with all the exploitation and whatnot, he gets to amass enough private property to feel like a king in his own castle

again, this is the right wing prole mentality, and this is 49% of the population, other 49% being liberals, and the remaining 2% being you people

or maybe i am wrong? maybe leftypol has a po box? maybe leftypol has a physical location? maybe leftypol exists somewhere in real life, in such a large number, with such an organization, manpower, munition cashes, training camps, skilled technicians and tested strategists, and the revolution really is going to happen any minute now, who knows, guess we will see in a few minutes

Nice goalpost move.

God damn that is a lot of text saying nothing interesting. I've spent several hours doing nothing but surfing the internet at work. I don't know why I waste so much time.

It gives value to money.


We're just talking about shit states pay for here, right? Not hypothetical communism or something? Because nobody is getting anything "for free". They're paid for. When someone collects medicare benefits by going to the doctor and flashing their card or whatever, the doctor and the staff get paid.

Ah but you see the NHS is free because it is aid for by taxes and taxes are ebul.

why should the doctor and the staff accept card flashing, instead of cash? isnt cash more useful for when the said doctor, say, needs a car mechanic, or just about any other thing?

well no, me wanting to fix your car for your money gives value to your money

What the masses are "entitled" to, in some abstract moralistic sense, is neither here nor there. Marxist analysis isn't, or at least shouldn't, be moralistic. The question is whether or not there is a way of organising production and distribution in a way that resolves the various inefficiencies and dialectical contradictions immanent in Capital and the superstructure it erects, while also enhancing the lives of the vast mass of society.

I'm doubtful; most are content to just ignore issues of homelessness and poverty. The idea that people actively enjoy to see destitution and the like is perverse and certainly not in keeping with any conception of human nature expounded hitherto (other than perhaps the perverse Randian individualism, though practically nobody subscribes to anything so callous).

Firstly, most of the working population is woefully uneducated, so their opinions are mere reflections of individualist propaganda. Secondly, the majority of people are discontented with a manifestly unfair and unequal system, yet have no means of understanding, and even less of articulating, precisely what it is they want to change.

This is a useless argument, but in any case the same could be said about certain slave and feudal societies. Regardless, those days are gone thanks to the penetration of foreign labour markets, the rise of automation, and a utopian supply-side dogma visited upon the unwitting Western publics from the late 1970s onwards.

low effort bait, I expect a 100 more replies at most.

you talk like every dumb kid at my job.

You only want my money because other people want my money, and ultimately everybody only wants money because it is the money the state compels them to use. When states collapse, or change their currency, it has usually been the case that the population changes their currency. This isn't voodoo or weird group think, it's because the state is compelling you to use it, and one of its primary means of doing this is taxation.


What are you talking about?

well basically all your points depend on a wholly moralistic view that people dont like inequality (for some reason you cant even explain yourself)

look at me, im a low on the ladder right wing prole, and i love wealth inequality, i feel like it validates my existence when i see miserable service sector employees who have zero skills and just pass around fast food, or when i see starving hobby degree students who made a mistake of thinking that the economy works on their hobbies, and probably also that the world works on happy thoughts and rainbows
it validates my own life choices and suffering i did to obtain my own skills that i use today to make my own money

and while no one would admit such a thing in a polite society, i am pretty sure people like me are the half of society that voted in reagan and trump and so on, while the other half are the liberals who vote in clintons, and basically there's 0% of the proper leftists who read all 50 volumes of das capital in the west, and will never get taken seriously by anyone ever anyway

again, im a low income prole myself, and yet i dont even have a boss so i cant buy the whole exploitation thingie, i work alone so i cant buy the whole "more efficient production of the famine ideology" thing either, and most of the workers and workplaces are like that, small and self owned

which leaves unskilled, uneducated mcjobbies the only ones susceptible to your propaganda
there are no factory workers around anymore
there are no russian serfs around anymore
there are no massive sweatshops in the firstworld anymore

and therefore there cant be communism either, and again, only a small obscure fringe of the population needs it in the first place

So your argument amounts to "I'm a shitty person, you should just have zero empathy like I do"


Compelling logic, m8

You weren't even arguing against communism, you said people should pay for roads. And that, because you resent poor people. What is there to even argue about, you're an admitted anti-social asshole.

Who in the flaming fuck says this


You seem like the type of dude who would embrace a literal Orwellian dystopia if it promised you a position where you get to be the one beating the shit out of dissenters

and your 'argument' amounts to people are nice and should share just because

nah, fuck off, fellow prole here, go earn your own bread, you get zero solidarity points from me, i dont need whatever you are selling, and from the looks of it, neither do most of the proles, hence the surge in right wing

anyone could sell pseudo intellectual bullshit to illiterate russian and chinese peasants, but over here a working man can just pick whatever skill is needed on the market off of youtube, but whatever tools he needs at the local store, and get to work while owning all of his labor, negotiating for himself, owning all of his tools and everything else

leftism is just a phase, and before you know it, you will be a car mechanic, or a plumber, or an electrician, and you will be proud of yourself, and you will want to get into stock market, or become a pilot, or an engineer, or a scientist, to get one of those higher income, more respectable jobs in society, or give a shot to registering your own company and expanding your own services

They shudder lest Americans be regimented in their habits of dress and diet, be compelled to subsist on famine rations, be forced to read stereotyped official propaganda in the newspapers, be coerced to serve as rubber stamps for decisions arrived at without their active participation or be required to keep their thoughts to themselves and loudly praise their soviet leaders in public, through fear of imprisonment and exile.

They fear monetary inflation, bureaucratic tyranny and intolerable red tape in obtaining the necessities of life. They fear soulless standardization in the arts and sciences, as well as in the daily necessities of life. They fear that all political spontaneity and the presumed freedom of the press will be destroyed by the dictatorship of a monstrous bureaucracy. And they shudder at the thought of being forced into an uncomprehended glibness in Marxist dialectic and disciplined social philosophies.

Because what you're offering comes with the risk/cost of losing everything they already have.
Most people aren't diehard revolutionaries and they never will be.
You want more people to join you?
Offer them better than what they have, and PROVE you can deliver it.
Most people aren't going to risk their lives or (reletive) well being unless they know there's something in it for them, and slogans aren't enough.

That wouldn't be a moralistic view, it would be an assertion about what humans like and do not like. Regardless, three out of my four points do not mention anything of the sort, so perhaps you ought to read a little closer next time.

You're projecting your own pathological relationship with inequality to a society that, at large, is uncomfortable with the idea. Further, whether the exploited individual derives some sado-masochistic joy from the ordeal is irrelevant as to whether or not that exploitation is occurring, and whether production could be organised in such a way that it does not occur. I'm doubtful that the vast mass of people would turn down the opportunity to improve their own material wealth, which is by and large what socialism offers.

Also, socialism doesn't eliminate inequality of outcome, it merely disallows the appropriation of others' labour. Those who work harder under a socialist system, with more skill or in industries with a higher demand for their labour, will often end up earning more; this is a perfectly natural inequality and not one we seek to expunge.

again, im a low income prole myself, and yet i dont even have a boss so i cant buy the whole exploitation thingie, i work alone so i cant buy the whole "more efficient production of the famine ideology" thing either, and most of the workers and workplaces are like that, small and self owned
Capital centralises as well as it expands, which means that the trend is for a continuous and marked relative decline in those "small self-owned" businesses. Notice, I said relative, not absolute; you've already proved yourself incapable of paying proper attention, so I felt compelled to clarify that.

I'm not going to continue with this any further for a few reasons. One of them being your dishonesty; you intentionally ignore the actual substantial points made in favour of minute ones not yet elaborated upon. Your seizing on "inequality" is the most egregious example; this is poor form, considering I rarely even mentioned the term, and when I did it wasn't really central to the argument being made. Secondly, you don't display enough familiarity with the literature to warrant further discussion; your points are indicative of a profound, likely wilful, ignorance. Thirdly, what you're displaying is either a LARPing edginess, or a real pathological lack of empathy, and for that reason I don't see it as worthwhile to go on educating someone such as yourself. Fourthly, you're a propaganda spewing idealist, relying upon anecdotal evidence and suppositions without one iota of theoretical or empirical backing. You make empirically verifiable claims, yet do not seek to provide any backing whatsoever; an activity most peculiar to sycophants. I can provide anecdotal evidence too; my skills are marketable, and I work as a researcher for Pfizer earning a comfortable salary. According to you I should be revelling in the misery of those consigned to a life of relative impoverishment and insecurity, yet I spend my time organising with them. You see the problem with your anecdotal evidence, and the hastily conceived suppositions you place alongside them, as if they somehow mutually reinforce eachother? Lastly, despite your obvious lack of knowledge, you are obviously unwilling to learn.

You'd make a good little petit-bourgeois sycophant, if only you were a little more adept at shrouding your propaganda in at least some semblance of a systematic understanding of that which you uphold.

The obvious shizz- socialist regimes have killt mad people and have had less open cultures than the West. The problem is that our culture here in the West relies on the meritocracy myth, and the threat of social failure if you stop working hardhardhard. How do we motivate billions of people who have been socialized under brutal capitalism to be driven to build a better world for all without defining themselves against a social underclass? Not actually that easy.

Also obviously porky's paying billions to spam ads against communism, even now. On top of that intell agencies infiltrate and assassinate us whenever we start seeming like a credible alternative. And also the contradictions of capitalism haven't played themselves out yet such that communism will be the natural next step.

When you want to engage with the literature, somebody might bother taking you seriously.

This is a legit good point, even if it is pretty simple. I think it goes past some of the more hard left people here who hate the idea of reforming the state, but it's an element in people's mistrust of mass political action in general. US gov can barely even keep shit like Medicare funded, Paul Ryan is coming for its balls. It's not leftist's fault, but states let people down. There was some article that came out recently with these dipshit centrist democrats talking about how they are afraid to trust the government anymore because Trump destroyed all of their prestigious democratic norms. These are thoughts that actually pass through people's minds, they think the government fucks everything up, whether by nature or through ephemeral political movements, so they don't want to trust it with certain things.

Maybe the solution to this is to launch a stronger ideological attack against the basis of the hijacked state i.e., gerrymandering, campaign finance, voter suppression etc. which is something people are clearly trying to do. But maybe it isn't, maybe the solution is just to get some wins and make them work, like Medicare for All. Who knows.

Learn some basic economics.

And when you do need what we're selling, we'll be waiting. Because you will. The market will crash, a new war will start, your skills will be automated, the environment will become toxic - something will happen that ruins your life, because capitalism is unsustainable and self destructive. Everyone loves capitalism during the boom times. It's when things go bust that they run to socialism. 2008 was just a preview.

so they're working all the time but they are not slaves. hmmm. happy slaves justify slavery!
you are bitter and twisted. if you had an ounce of enjoyment and freedom in your life, you would understand that the whole system is bullshit. enjoy getting fleeced, I guess.

It's kind of cute how they think they're making cogent or novel points.

nice reactionary shitpost, leftie

Read Getty, Wheatcroft, Martens, and Parenti my man.

You do not know what that word means.

you're only allowed to use it if you're on the left side :^)

Are you here to learn and engage with opposing viewpoints, or are you just here to spout your talking points?

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How can ONE CLASSCUCK be SO MAD?

Okay. So if you're not here to argue in good faith, why not ban you?

Unlike T_D, Holla Forums, reddit, or whatever place you came from, Holla Forums is a debate and free-speech board. You're allowed to voice whatever opinions you have (we have conservatives and Nazi regulars here, even), as long as your arguments are made in good faith. This isn't like Holla Forums where you can drown out opposing viewpoints by flooding threads and saging.

you're gonna give me a fucking heart attack holy shit

I guess you didn't read that part.

Enjoy your ban, and come back when you can actually handle debate against opposing views.

I don't disagree.
Even if some here find the phrase "reformism" to be a dirty word, I think it's probably the right way to go at this point, as very few in the West are living in conditions that make armed revolution more likely.
Consciously or unconsciously, they understand they have it pretty good compared to others, and even their forebearers.
Nobody wants to be the one who kills the goose that laid the golden eggs, especially if it means deprivation and chaos is the result of doing so.
Start by getting legislation drafted and passed that improves healthcare, or lowers the tax burden for those who can't afford it.
Leveling the playing field between the haves and have nots (in the social sense) would go a long way toward getting more people on the left.
Then after society in general is comfortable with it, then you can start nationalizing things and doing workers councils or whatever.
But you have to start with getting people prepare to accept those ideas, and that will take time.
Going from 0 revolution will get you nothing at this point.

most of the western working class is happy and for any sort of socialism to happen in the west, western working class needs to be angry instead

as polacks explained, they dont need whatever we are selling, they are doing just fine on their own

[citation needed]

This is true for the boomer working class, but the younger generations get a worse deal, and are therefore more likely to be dissatisfied with capitalism (polls and elections show).


This is why I believe we need to encourage the more destructive capitalist parties to implement harsher legislation, in scenarios where there is no socialist choice. The more they deregulate, privatize, and so on, the more this encourages crashes and lowers working standards. Then this sours people's view of capitalism. Look at how anti-capitalism increased after 2008 and 1929, for example.

I'm not for full-on accelerationism, since I do care about suffering. However, someone on here once said that every social service serves as a justification for capitalism.

I don't know about real west, but I live in a country (Poland) where communism is more or less a swear word and the Left is nonexistent in the parliament, but yet the ruling party is pretty heavy on welfare postulates. Not exactly the only place and time this kind of shit happened.

You never responded to my post about how I know plenty of people with marketable skills, making money, who have families and who are anarchists and communists. I wonder why. Fuck, the guy who turned me on to socialism was a CS student at a good CS school not some black studies major.
You think all of the college kids with good degrees who've been softened up to the idea of socialism are going to remain liberals after a good financial crash and as every success of our labor movement is stripped away? You're insane. Marxism is appealing beyond that if you're an atheist, analytical thinker like a lot of people in STEM. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on if you're that kind of person and a liberal.

i dont know man, some people simply have the individualist mentality and dont feel comfortable in mass movements, or mass anything for that matter
its almost as if being a hyper collectivist is a prerequisite for any sort of leftism, i dont know why this is or if i am mistaken here
it just feels really annoying and degrading even, not being able to take a shit in your own house unless you are holding hands with thousand more people and they all approving

pretty sure no one wants to join up your weird, cattle like cult of socialism, and that present day private property and privacy that capitalism affords them is more preferable

even in case of a total economic collapse, im rather moving to a wilderness, no man's land, and growing potatoes there while sniping anyone approaching instead of joining some fucking movement
and i know i am not the only one, especially when it comes to proles

Wrong
Regulation is the only thing standing in between you and an exploding car and crashing economy.
States have been able to pass insane legislation in the US since the country was founded, and the Supreme Court basically let Congress continue passing crazier and crazier legislation for 60 years.Feel free to explain to me how the founding fathers of the US or a court where the justice furthest to the left calls saving money a natural human urge are remotely leftist.
Idiocy. The average normo has a phone and a facebook account. Their life isn't private. Corporations know where you are, they know how much you spend and where, and they determine you what to like and where to go.
And don't give me any "vote with your wallet" bullshit. Have fun voting with your wallet against Google, Nestle, etc.
But they do. That was the whole point of my posts. Not only unemployable humanities majors but people with all kinds of jobs and life experiences.
Finally, you keep talking about proles. I jokingly called myself petite-bourgeois, but I'm working class, and you with your small business are not. You're probably using private property incorrectly as well at least in the context of communism.

What happened here?

You're probably long since banned but you can't ignore reality forever.

E X T R E M E A U T I S M

But what if I don't want to work

So why couldn't your dumbass get into university to begin with?

You're not a prole, you're a petty-bourg faggot. You'll get to do oil changes on guards' cars in a gulag.

fact based policy doesnt care abut *sniff* ideology

Socialism is broad. It can easily be horrible for the majority of the working-class.