Do pro-borders "socialists" not think that undocumented immigrants are workers...

Do pro-borders "socialists" not think that undocumented immigrants are workers, or are they just fascists that don't care?

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fuck off ayncrap porky your going to have to get your cheap labor somewhere else

Leaglise & Organise, you do need to deal with immigration from bourgeois states; however immigration as a system that maintains capital itself must be dealt with, the immigrants are as much victims of it as those negatively affected by mass migration.

Capitalists always drive workers into competition with each other to lower wages. The proper response to this is not to call for brutal state repression of different groups of workers, it's for all workers to join in solidarity.


Why do you think Pablo works for a quarter of your wage with no safety equipment? It's because whenever he tries to strike for better pay and conditions his boss calls ICE and has him deported.

Because he lived in squalor his whole life and the money he sends back home goes way further in central America than it does here?

Oh and Pablo striking? That's rich, he's a fucking strike breaker through and through.


That's why you unionise them, and you see this actually worked: it's what the IWW did with the Irish back in the 1910s.

Mass unionization would only depress wages even more.

Why don't you allow capitalists to hire whoever they want? Isn't that part of the "freedom" that you covet so much? If you want to be hired over "Pablo", why don't you work for as little as him or even less? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and all that.

Just using the logic that your kind keeps using against us.

I don't like capitalism though. It is Jewish.

Yes that's why he comes even with such low pay, but you don't think he would like to send even more money back home?
This is just racist shit (not that I expect different from someone with a Nazi flag), Mexican and Central American workers have a great history of labor radicalism, much better than US workers in fact.

This is true too, because what you get is this guy

No, it's 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧(ANGLO🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧)

I don't care? I'd like to send even more money back home too!
No it's just the facts on the ground, cholos will work for peanuts and a long dead labor movement in central America from a century ago they have probably never even heard of doesn't change this at all.


Yet you're complaining about a symptom and not the disease.

I think you already made up your mind before you asked this question, buddy.

you're complaining about the disease and only wish to exacerbate the symptoms only to leave us all dead or hungry while telling us you have the cure tbh

you're basically homeopaths and illegal spics are porkey's pet Numéro uno

Kinda. I think some of them may be just naive and haven't thought it through. A lot of them are basically fash though.

Anyway I'm right.

So if you did not want to hear the opposing viewpoint, why bother asking it you insufferable cunt? kys

I did want to hear the opposing viewpoint though, so I could show why it's stupid.

You did not want to have a discussion, you just want to stroke your own dick.

even the revisionists in the KPRF aren't going full national-chauvinism:

"We emphasize: the problem of mass illegal migration is the product of capitalism, which condemns entire nations to poverty and the search for a better life on earnings abroad. Capitalism generates the desire to maximize profits and personal gain, pushes entrepreneurs and officials to violate the law and admit illegal migrants to the labor market of our country. We believe that the solution to the problem of illegal migration is fundamentally possible only under the socialist system, the revival of the USSR with its unified economic system. At the same time, we understand that urgent measures to restore order in Russia are necessary now. The first steps in this direction, even within the framework of capitalism, should be the legislative initiatives proposed by the CPRF."

this is very bland and parliamentarist crap but here points out major aspects of the issue.
socialism will not drive people into migration. some say there will be more, but that's simply not true. most people live and die at place of birth when they're not driven away from home by outside influence.

Where did I say that was good? That's a consequence of open border policy. It's terrible that it happens, of course, but understand that's a potential result.

There's nothing to discuss. You either are against borders or for porky.


But why is porky calling for open borders tho🤔

Unionization is not necessarily the same as "making gains" if your goals are revolutionary and not reformist. In the US the unions are largely undemocratic and controlled by the Democrats, and as a result they have often supported all sorts of reactionary shit and they are certainly not a threat to capitalism. Not saying unionization if always worthless but it isn't always making gains.
The immigrant labor undercuts the native labor because the immigrant labor is precarious. Why? Because it can be deported as soon as it starts agitating for better conditions. The solution to this is not more repression of the immigrant labor, that just serves the capitalists interests, it's to end repression of the immigrant labor.
Again, because if they tried to unionize they would be deported.
The capitalists media will spew fash shit no matter what.
Then you promote unionization and unity, and you don't do this by repressing the immigrant workers, that hinders unionization and spreads disunity even more.
And you just help them if you call for the immigrant workers to be deported.
You make it sound like "porky" is all powerful or magic or something.
The gap between rich and poor countries that allows capitalists to use cheap foreign labor would not be possible without borders to segregate the rich and poor countries.

he isn't tho

He is though

Imagine my shock at a Stalinstache not being a socialist.

"Open borders" is to no borders what "right to work" is to job security.

>no you already made up your mind
>gives reasons

he is tho

and you're his shock troops.🤐

sometimes i just want off this ride and kill myself

imagine my shock, a non-socialist talking shit about ML and having no arguments
and then there are faggots like this guy and i remember that it'd be better to work for socialism and have retarded people like this killed
just for the pleasure of satisfaction

I'd say the two major political parties and the major media outlets are pretty good representatives of the interests of the US capitalist class. Please show me which of these is pushing for open borders.

There might be some niche of capital whose interests would be served by open borders, however by and large they wouldn't be and this is why you don't see any kind of a movement for it.

Porky as sum of vectors is a direction and that direction wants to remove borders because most of what makes up the global pork power-mass is multinational companies that want to cut costs by producing closer to their sales area without having to pay the salaries of said areas. This is why scheme such as "temporary" immigrant labour that existed in europe in the 70's and existed or still does exist in lots of places like the US are so popular, they will work for less because they do not reside in a country permanently.

Both of them

35 million spics with no papers have settled in the united States in the last 30 years and neither party nor media organization made a peep about it, they only encouraged it and try to sell it as a positive

Entire cities and states declare themselves as sanctuaries who will not cooperate with ice

Porky loves open borders and you're an agent of porky

are you genuinly retarded or do you not know what the EU is and what it's "freedom of movement" really is about?

you apparently don't know what open borders are, millions of people immigrating to a country with no papers isn't open borders if those people can be removed at the whims of the border police


ice can barely deport ms13 members without this country teetering on the edge of civil war

that's freedom of movement within a handful of wealthy countries, you don't see much of a movement in europe for opening borders with russia, or even canada or the us, and certainly not with arab countries or whatever

lol Merkel accepted a million Arabs in 2015 with barley an end in sight

why do you lie so much?

they deport like half a millions people from this country per year you moron, more than half of them non-criminals

While millions pour across the border every year…

Also, every single one of them are technically criminals tbh

Why would a non-white like you worry about other non-whites coming into the US?

yeah they were caught off guard with that. not much they could do.
no, eu border policing has got a lot stronger, and the number of migrants making it into europe has gone way down

The economic difference between the north-western EU countries and the ex-soviet countries is really massive.

Wrong. There is a lot they could done. But they didn't because porky needs more debt slaves.

well i'm sure you would have loved it if they put them all in gas chambers but that wasn't really realistic tbh

They just needed to secure the border but they didn't want to do that because porky loves open borders.

it's what they've been doing the last couple years, it's why the number of migrants entering europe has dropped.
then why doesn't he open the borders? people crossing the mediterranean on dinghies, with a bunch of them drowning, and then hoping their asylum request is accepted, is not anything close to open borders. porky likes a certain amount of precarious immigrants, he definitely does not like open borders.

The borders are open, people go 100 meters off the Libyan coast and the Italian coast guard goes to rescue them along with thousands of porky funded NGOs.

Borders are necessary. The idea that anyone should be allowed to move anywhere at will is utterly absurd and completely infeasible with any notions of either a planned economy or a cohesive society.

mass unionization raises wages and then crisis comes because workers literally aren't allowed to have comfy lives in this fucke dup system


Immigration is about as important to us as economics is to Holla Forums, meaning who cares.

Class collaborators are part of the disease and will get tbe wall. Mandatory inter-racial breeding will be implemented to create the American master race of ever cultural and race. They will be the imperialist vanguard for the new socalist order and bring humanity to the stars.


Mass immigration caused by imperialist wars is a byproduct of capitalists not immigrants

There's two kinds of "pro-borders" leftists.

The first are people who concede the necessity of having borders during the transitional period. We can't just have everyone in the world become citizens of the social republic, with all the proceeding legal and political implications, of a country they may not be even living in. There needs some means of facilitating social assimilation and population control. For example, tourists shouldn't have the same right to vote as residents - can you imagine the migration that would occur during voting season? There are certain practical limitations that (among other things) make the system of citizenship necessary, and while we, as Communists, seek to abolish all borders, must understand that insofar we live under capitalism, in other words insofar as the system which makes these limitations exists, we should act accordingly.

The latter are reactionary conservatives who base their position on nationalist prejudices and bastardization of the former position. See .

Not everything under capitalism is evil, and all progress is a double-edged sword. After all, it is in and through capital in which we are liberated from it, as productive labour is variable capital. The internationalization of capital is not inherently a bad thing, nor is it an inherent good either. Capital has no ideology of its own, but it requires ideology in order to reproduce itself. Therefore it co-opts existing ideology to serve its own purposes - how principled you are in theory is irrelevant, because in practice, we are all beholden to the machinations of the laws of society. In other words there is not inherent capitalist ideology detached from historical social context, and therefore no authentically revolutionary theory removed from practice. What ultimately matters, at least in terms of policy, is whether said policy benefits the working class, and whether that benefit leads revolution and communism, not whether that policy is right "in principle".

I don't think strict border control is the answer. I think the answer is that citizenship should be more accessible. Not that citizenship should be abolished outright right away, mind you, but rendered in such a way that would enable migrant workers to assimilate. Arguing for tighter borders would just mean tightening nationalist division and discourage proletarian internationalism.