CIA anti-communist thread

uh…

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Or are you implying a connection with that fasco Charlottesville rally? I don't know how otherwise the place is relevant

that ain't me

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

never said/implied it was. So what is your argument?

Shill more American propaganda please

American shill

why should I bother? you just state "facts" and we're expected to refute the american media agrees with you?
don't think so.
you'll have to prove it.

Thanks for proving my assumption that you're all 14yo edgelords who probably wear Guy Fawkes masks and literally don't have any arguments or refutations.

Dude watch the fucking video. You think that story he tells about why and how he stole the poster seems super genuine and believable? And you find all this so hard to accept given the awful human rights record, personality cults and general insanity that NK is well-known for? All those are also a product of "american media" I guess?

as if America isn't guilty of all of those things you listed.

congrats on the neolib brainwashing

How about you actually prove this. You're just spewing more of the same bullshit I hear on Nat Geo

you can at least buy skittles while wearing a hoodie in North Korea

The only part about his story I don't believe is how his family's "very very small" factory barely makes ends meet.

jesus christ, they are, but nowhere on a similar level. And anyway it doesn't debunk any of what I said.
That video is a literal press conference from NK. It wasn't staged by the CIA, was it? Human rights abuses are attested by international organizations and by several people who fled the country. The CIA doesn't control any of those either. Concentration camps are visible on google maps. Hell, every travel docu you can find and every story of people who have been on a tour in the country will showcase that something's very much off. The very fact that people aren't allowed to leave the country should tell you something already too, no? Fucking debunk any of that instead of making more edgy comments about "neolib brainwashing".

No, the burden of proof is not on me. Tons of evidence for it are out there and I know for sure that you're aware of this. Give me one (1) piece of believable evidence (not fabricated by the NK government) that disproves the widespread corruption and human rights abuses in the country which all international research organizations attest. You can say "oh but the CIA/jews/illuminati control all those organizations!!!" but even then you didn't give any evidence which proves the opposite to be true.

North Koreans are allowed to leave. I've met a few in Finland

holy shit, he actually said it

International Organizations? Be more specific. You know the South used to bribe people to defect, right?

What do concentration camps look like? How do you know they're not just regular jails?

Which documentaries? I've also heard plenty of stories of people who visited who say just the opposite. Define "very much off." You mean like the country is one big Truman Show? That's ridiculous.

They're at war with the rest of the world, do you expect an open border? That's suicide.

Talking about diplomats/absolute elite I suppose? I don't think they were just casual tourists. Any evidence of this?

Well why should I adopt your equally arbitrary frame and equally a priori rules either? What framework/source do you start from in the first place? The literal NK government and press? You can be as relativist as you want, but that's a source which is objectively less reliable than several international organizations and individuals combined.
I'd appreciate it if you try to respond with actual arguments instead of memes, it makes you look a bit silly tbh.

Sure they weren't workers gaining currency for the government?

he says was planned in advance by the North Korean officials who presumably gave him a pretty brutal beating.
US doctors found no evidence that he was beaten or tortured btw

I'd also like to point out every citizen is militarily trained. If they were truly oppressed they would have the ability to rise up.

Kind of. The FBI handled COINTELPRO, which was created initially to disrupt the CPUSA but eventually expanded to encompass the BPP, SDS/New Left, latino and native american groups, peurto rican independence groups, and the KKK.

Human Rights Watch is the most obvious one. Several smaller indexes such as democracy index, CPI etc. also attest the dictatorial/corrupt nature of the country. There are also the accounts different defectors from Korean concentration camps, amongst others.

Or are you talking about back when SK was also an actual full-on dictatorship? That I can believe. Nowadays no, lol.

Literally any "inside north korea" style thing you can find on youtube or on the internet, from whatever country. I remember watching the VICE one (admittedly not the greatest journalism but well, they probably don't fake all the actual footage you see) and a couple others.

I really would like to hear more in detail what they said. Maybe they had a somewhat more relaxed tour guide, that's possible since they're all just people after all; wouldn't prove or disprove anything about the country IMO.

-not being allowed to exit the hotel on your own or interact with locals
-not being allowed to make pics/videos of the most ordinary things
-not being allowed to travel freely or take several everyday items into the country
-situations obviously being staged; i remember for example this (Dutch-language) docu where some woman who sold flowers was hiding under a desk and some official/actress did the selling in her place because they wanted to avoid interaction with the locals. And another one (i think VICE) where they put a load of food on tables in a restaurant without anyone ever coming to eat it, just to demonstrate how much food they have. Etc. just watch some and undoubtedly you'll see more examples.
-the very fact that there exist huge statues of the nation's leaders that locals have to religiously adore (as well as the fact that you can get such a grave punishment for stealing a literal poster)

Yes, you're actually right on that. Whatever be of it, there's no way that he was gently handled and no abuse of force (mental or physical) towards him happened at all.

But it doesn't work that simply dude. If there is massive oppression (especially combined with all the brainwashing/propaganda), it's not so easy for some kind of organization to come into being that unites all military units against the government. Apart from that, undoubtedly there's also people who get too much benefits from the government to give up loyalty and people who genuinely are behind the regime, etc.

sure looks like hell, doesn't it
youtube.com/watch?v=M3T5xwb2A7E

I have to say I'm surprised they would let interviewers near those locals. The atmosphere is more relaxed than in the footage I've seen so far. But apart from that, the video mostly shows how the locals are shut off from outside information, can only follow state media and have no access to internet. Besides, the video literally says only the good sides of the country are shown. According to you, are all those things signs of real democracy, transparency and freedom?
the girls are cuter than in SK though

Are you being serious right now?

There are actually tons of North Koreans in China. They go there to buy stuff, get medical treatment, etc. - most countries put up a travel ban against the DPRK, so they can't travel there.
archive.fo/4E6mS
english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_northkorea/799215.html

These guys went from China to South Korea, turns out South Korea doesn't let them leave

"Human Rights Watch is an independent, nongovernmental organization, supported by contributions from private individuals and foundations worldwide." - hrw.org/financials. Receives donations from porky…. SO TRUSTWORTHY

"The Democracy Index is an index compiled by the UK-based *company* the Economist Intelligence Unit" - Wikipedia. SO TRUSTWORTHY

The CPI is literally the US government. SO TRUSTWORTHY

Literally any jackass can defect and lie when bribed, if not by SK, then the USA.

More porky sources… fantastic.

Again, other visitors have said otherwise.

Not when every border crossing poses a potential threat. Every capitalist country has it out for them, ya dummy.

Oh man, what's the explanation gonna be this time? Is it an organization secretly controlled by the CIA? Is it a Jewish conspiracy? Is it set up with the sole purpose of writing these fake news reports about NK? Don't let me wait any longer!

Well, it's not really a secret that most countries and especially South Korea are hostile towards North Korea. I don't think the South Korean or American government is great either (quite the opposite), but compared to NK there is at least basic freedom of speech and access to information, to name just two things. I don't see how anyone who doesn't already have family or some kind of background in NK would prefer living there to anywhere else in the somewhat developed world.

Dude come on… HRW may not be perfect but it's literally the best we've got. You can never reach perfect 100% neutrality. If you don't believe anything that's in their reports, you surely shouldn't believe anything the NK government tells you either.
As I already said: even if they want to push their porky agenda, and although it's possible to manipulate shit, some elements are obviously not staged because you can see them happen live on screen. This is true for all the examples I listed. Or do you think they didn't actually go to NK at all and filmed those things in a decor?
again, give details please
They could allow North Koreans to exit the country without allowing porkies to come in you goofball. There's no acceptable reason to impose such a strict regulation on them.
Gonna sleep now, but i'll happily continue replying tomorrow or later Kim-hugger

I dare you to point me to any country in the world with the same GDP as the DPRK and then tell me the DPRK doesn't provide vastly superior living standards.

I don't feel like arguing with you, because it's the same bullshit that has been debunked over and over, read this megathread on North Korea:
archive.fo/pRkxK

Also, you do what every propagandist does, you turn the burden of proof on its head. I can't prove a negative.

I want you to read NK's page on their website, then read USA's page. Sure, HRW criticizes the US for a lot of things, but barely mentions how much chaos we've caused all over the world. HRW goes balls to the wall against NK. The US is given a slap on the wrist, and yes, the US has committed far worse atrocities than the DPRK. But you're right, totally no bias there. Everything else I'm going to refer you to

Sorry your thread got hijacked OP. I'm pretty sure the recently released JFK files mention how Oswald (a communist) was framed for his assassination. Does that count?

Raw material quality of life isn't everything. The lack of the freedoms he mentioned are also bad. And you could also add the siege NK that a lot of people use to excuse their actions as a factor that drives people to not want to go there or seek to go out.
90% of that thread is an user who went on a guided tour and the only thing different than he did was walk around the area near his hotel without supervision for 20 minutes
And he is on party that has very close ties with NK so I guess people could accuse him of being biased too just like a lot of the handwaving over porky sources itt?

You are doing everyone a disservice tbh.

*could also add the siege NK that is currently under and that a lot of people use to excuse their actions

Fugg:DD I should avoid posting when i'm sleepy, apologies.

Like what? Human rights are guaranteed according to the constitution. Freedom of movement is also restricted in liberal democracies, by income (you can't move somewhere else if you don't have the funds), just because an abstract economic mechanism does it doesn't mean it's better than when the state regulates it. There are not just negative freedoms, there are positive freedoms as well and it so happens that as long as capitalism is generalized, you need the curb the former to achieve the letter - if you go by the strict Anglo definition of liberty.

I'm that guy, and I remember I posted a bit more than just my trip experiences. It was 2 hours, and it was not near the hotel by the way. I don't know why you need to belittle me, I never said that the DPRK is an utopia or something. I'm defending it because I think they are serious about socialism and confront global capital and imperialism. I'm not Korean and I don't think their style of Juche socialism would work in, let's say, Austria, but for Korean conditions it works pretty well I'd say.

Here is the thing with these "sources": They never actually went to the prisons in North Korea. I did neither. But I don't go ahead and claim shit. You can post any article from any shiny NGO, just because there is a label on it doesn't grant the author magically more insight. Some guy writing up shit about the DPRK doesn't have more insight than me or you. They watch the same defector interviews, they watch the same smuggled material, they read the same news stories. The reason why I don't want to debate this in detail is because it's intellectually dishonest since I can't prove a negative.

hahahahahahahahahaha, solid evidence there tbh

Im confused how the CIA became that way when it originally had a lot of socialists in it's early days.

You should have a little read of one of their torture manuals that was handed out to honduran rebels back in the 80s.

Wat? Nazis are not socialists

I compiled a playlist for this exact conversation:youtube.com/watch?v=ukGp9kxIF5Y&list=PL1b_4Utnwf8CsOtUnrfXn49Pjz5DGt9k6

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So you do think the US killed him

lad nk ain't no picnic but you're seriously just parroting american propaganda

pic related, and to /r/socialism specifically

Recommended reading

Can anyone convert this book to an epub? I only have a phone at the moment and there isn't one in libgen.io
calibre-ebook.com/download
You can use this

Here you go. I tried it on Sumatra pdf reader and some parts are fucked up but it should be readable. Also you'll have to rename the file because Holla Forums doesn't allow epub uploading.

Thank you but it is indeed very fucked up. I recommend calibre because I remember it giving better results

you're an emotional child

Haha nice dude! upvoted

There are a bit over 100 of them. Gabon, Afghanistan and Congo are examples of countries with a higher GDP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
And don't fucking say this is neolib propaganda until you provide me with evidence that NK has the highest GDP in the world as you claim. That's not a "negative" that can't be proven, right? Where do you get this claim from?

If I follow a mainstream view commonly accepted by every scholar, international organization, etc., for which loads and loads of evidence exist, and you go drastically against that view, it seems pretty clear to me on whose shoulders the burden of proof rests.

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>I dare you to point me to any country in the world with the same GDP as the DPRK and then tell me the DPRK doesn't provide vastly superior living standards.

Where does it say that the DPRK has the highest GDP in the world?
Find a country with a similar GDP to the DPRK and compare the living standards there to that of the DPRK.

You're such a weak faggot

Everything that the DPRK says is true. They have no reason to lie and they are too morally pure to consider it in the first place.