So was he really that bad, or was he the first victim of US/NATO unipolar dominance in the post-Soviet world...

So was he really that bad, or was he the first victim of US/NATO unipolar dominance in the post-Soviet world? Given the awful conditions in most post-Yugoslav republics, it's hard to see how Milosevic staying in power would've been any worse.

Other urls found in this thread:

To Kill A Nation: The Attack On Yugoslavia, by Michael Parenti

Yugoslavia video lecture from Parenti:

He was a corrupt apartchik who rode the wave of extreme nationalism that swept the country. He is one of the main contributors to the Yugoslav break-up.

The Serbs were the most progressive and least reactionary side of the conflict in every conceivable way.

Secular pluralist bourgeois nationalists >>>>>>> ethno nationalist separatists and Islamist chauvinists

Not to mention the Serbs were the only side resisting US imperialism. Supporting the Croat/Bosnian/Albanian separatists is akin to supporting the Libyan and Syrian ''revolutions''

read a fucking book:

Every time some retarded rightist says the US is a "christian country" just remind them of this time when they bombed the shit out of their fellow christian serbs in order to support muslims.


As much as I hate this repetitive argument, the Yugoslav wars are one of the very few situations where I feel comfortable in using the "both sides are bad" trope.

read a fucking book

Give me the deets

How about a leftist one that isn't biased towards Serbia?

Read the fucking book.

I know that Milosevic was critical of the West due to their alliance with corporate fascists and Islamists, but that doesn't make his ultranationalist, actually-existing """socialist""" ass much better

Also, isn't Parenti defensive of any anti-West welfare state that seems to have just tiny bits of socialist characteristics?

Yes, he was better than Western imperialism.

The American Empire needs to be destroyed. Deal with it.

I guess killing civilians en masse is a-okay if you mutter something about how much you hate America while your generals do it. NATO still only intervened to further the interests of American and Western European capital though, that is beyond dispute.

Did he really believe in any type of socialism besides "keep Yugoslavia together" even Parenti admits he was a Western favorite until they found better puppets.

I have questions about what actually happened. It's not like I don't believe that Serbs couldn't have done or didn't commit any crimes it but there seems to be some ambiguity about whether he actually ordered these crimes committed. Then he drops dead while in jail from a "heart attack" before any of this shit can go to trial. Suspicious.

There is one thing that Parenti was definitely right about, the serbs took the bad rap while the Croatian fascists and Islamist groups committed the majority of the ethnic cleansing and atrocities in that war.

Jesus Christ, this is disgusting
I feel ill reading this, I can't believe another human being (that isn't Serbian) could write something like this, I don't care what Parenti says, this is an absolute lie
Everyone on this board is ready to disregard mass graves on the flimsiest of excuses as long as the right people are filling them
and yes I'm a Croat so you can call me biased right off the bat, a loony nationalist who wants to drink the blood of Serbs blah blah blah

Milosevic is absolutely guilty and Parenti writes low grade apologia. Ban me forever to free me from this hell.

that wasn't a shitposting flag, btw


This actually. Milosevic, as much as Tudjman and Alija were basically fighting the war over who gets the biggest piece of the pie. They all fully expected to be recognized, if not aided, by the west in their struggle and fully integrate into the western world. Now the difference is in how much autonomy they expected to receive in return, while Croats and Bosniaks, somewhat smartly, decided to play by the rules of this brave, new western world, Milosevic obviously wasn't happy with the deal of precising over a economic colony, so he got cocky and both he and we paid that price again. But he got what he deserved for being instrumental in the breakup of Yugoslavia, both fuckers, him and Tudjman, had about 40-ish secret meetings during the war. That's probably more then any individual Serb and Croat had in the same period.

Make no mistake, he was a corrupt piece of shit, and user here is absolutely right, but the neoliberal and crypto-demsoc parties that succeeded him are just as shitty, except with a nicer makeup. To answer OPs question, it's highly doubtful the conditions would much worse, considering our living standard is, here in Serbia, still lower then during Milosevic's reign.

t. Yugoslav
Huh, that's interesting even a CIA-rag like Vice admits that a large number of people were ethnically cleansed by the Croats during the War. It's almost like it fits a pattern, ya know, like how the Croatian fascists committed the worst genocide of WWII, and possibly the most sickening genocide of all time.

He didn't have any pretensions of keeping Yugoslavia together, it was about how much territory these three fucks would get to keep afterwards. Milosevic only (ab)used the almost disregarded Yugoslav constitution that, in the case of secession or separatism, put primacy on preserving Yugoslavia territorial integrity. Ethno-nationalism is a means in this war, to support far larger territorial gains for all three fat fucks. Atrocities were committed by all sides, but Serb ethno-nationalists, comprising the largest potential force in the war committed most and also most shocking ones. Yes, it's true that western media, supportive of NATO's intervention spared no moment to emphasize this, even twisting some events to it's own gain as any good propaganda does, but that by no means disregards the actual atrocities committed by either side. Nor does their current, politically viable status in ex-Republics.
All three ethno-nationalist sides absolutely fought for greater ethnically clean state, a paradox in the thoroughly multi-ethnic and multi-cultural Yugoslavia, and spared no means of ethnic cleansing, genocide to achieve it. When the fight against the common enemy, the ethno-nationalist Serbs has ended in Bosnia, Bosniak and Croatians fractions turned on themselves over compromising Croat populated Bosnian territories. Even worse, throughout the war, to achieve and justify this maniacal ideas, fascist ideals and iconography of various quisling movements, such as ustašas and četniks were revived. In case of Bosniak muslim ethno-nationalism, they adopted various elements of the mujaheddin movement.
The war had nothing to do with socialist values of Yugoslavia, because it's very occurrence is against the fabric of Tito's federal socialist Yugoslavia. And we're all rightfully paying the price for it.

Oh fuck off, so when the "CIA rag" writes an article you agree with then it's cool, right? And what a surprise, it's written by a Serb and the picture is of a WW2 blade used by Croats to kill people in camps, this will surely be an objective account.

What were the options? They staged a rebellion, ethnically cleansed the area they occupied, refused every overture and split the country in two territorially, blocking traffic etc. What other option was there except moving in and breaking the blockade? They ran because they thought we'd massacre them and who knows, maybe we would've, I can't know what might have been, but it's easy for you to have the luxury of sitting in an armchair and playing monday morning quarterback when bombs and shit aren't falling on your head.

He was fucking based capitalist because muh anti imperialism.

I'm really glad I watched this. Parenti has a new fan

Discussing that sort of issues on places like Holla Forums is virtually impossible because vulgar anti-imperialists will shit up the thread by acritically defending anything that doesn't align with Western imperialism, glossing over the grossest atrocities and calling anyone who disagrees a liberal.

What the fuck are you on? Serbian nationalists embraced the Orthodox church and stoked ethnic tensions.

just another day where leftypol refuses to read and unironically spouts US foreign policy propaganda

emotional children


These atrocities, even if they were not imperialist myths, should have no bearing on a revolutionary communist's position on the war.

Marxists support the side resisting imperialism, period. Even if they commit massacres and use barrel bombs.

Only the most infantile liberals would oppose a side because of how many people it killed.


The Serbs were right to commit genocide to take their country back from the Muslims.
Ratko Mladic said: "People are not little stones, or keys in someone's pocket, that can be moved from one place to another just like that… Therefore, we cannot precisely arrange for only Serbs to stay in one part of the country while removing others painlessly. I do not know how Mr Krajisnik and Mr Karadzic will explain that to the world. That is genocide"
"a 1994 Serb television video that showed him gleefully touring a village that had been emptied of Muslims, whom Mladić called “Turks.”"

No, we don't. We don't take sides in bourgeois war, period.

It would have been better if Slobadon Milosevic and Franjo Tudjman divided Bosnia instead of the Orthodox Christians and Catholics being forced into a federation with the Muslims.

The Serbs were fighting a just war to take their country back from the Muslims.

You're not a leftist if you have beliefs like this. Please leave this board.

Hi, Phil


Oh I get it. Every war crime that the CIA disapproves of is elevated to a genocide. War crimes the CIA approves of are just self defense and righteous retaliation.

Yes its the Serbs, not the Germany and Washington funded Croat fascist and Bosnian Islamists. Tony Blair is an anti fascist liberator amiright? The one faction that every imperialist nation on Earth cheered for its annihilation is 'imperialist'.

Liberal mental gymnastics are fucking pathetic.

milosevic was as nationalistic as his croat and bosnian counterparts. the key to understanding the situation in yugoslavia is understanding that every republic had it's nationalist core in the late 80s (funded and promoted by the US and Germany) and this was the case inside the party as well. This is made apparent from the failure of the federal government to reign-in the liberal coup in slovenia due to the serbian fraction's reluctance to move JNA artillery away from positions that would benefit JNA in a war against croatia.

it is worth noting that the nationalist element (even to this day) was stronger in croatia than any of the other republics, even while tito was alive.

serbs aren't religious in the same sense croatians are, they mostly see religion as some sort of tradition and keeping in touch with some vague sense of past glories

why dont you eat some kruh and calm your titties?

This is the very definition of an ethno-religion.

yes user, but the average serb doesn't actually follow religious protocol nor do they really believe in god, they see it more as an ethnic identity than as an actual vehicle of interpreting the universe. croatians on the other hand are no-sex-before-marriage tier catholics for the most part (the ones that are religious at all i mean)

Never really read up on the Yugo conflicts because of the clusterfuck they are, but I always thought the Serbs were treated way too harshly by the "international community". Also when I went to Croatia I thought most Croats were racist as fuck against Serbs.

it can happen when you spend a part of your childhood in the basement listening to aerial sirens telling you that the serbs are bombing your city

Nazi Germany was fucking based because it fought western imperialism.

It's not genocidal Balkan sectarianism when we do it though, right guys?

how many serbs are in here

He's a giant fag and everything about the Yugoslav wars were horrible. Everyone was a lackey, nobody was /ourguy/. Best comparison is it's Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler arguing over which autism of theirs was superior.

The assumption here is that Yugoslavia prior to the war was in any way socialist or even worth preserving.
As an ex-yu leftist it pains me to say this, but late Yugoslavia wasn't the USSR - it had already implemented heavy market reforms in agreement with the West, had huge unemployment, and worker participation was purely formal. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Yugoslavia was only allowed to exist because it was an effective buffer against the East, at no point did it present an actual threat for US interests. It's also questionable how sustainable the system would have been without financing from western banks. Tito tried to play a fairly smart reapolitik game, but in hindsight it could hardly be called a "third way". As soon as the USSR collapsed we weren't useful to the west anymore and thus could follow in its wake.

If you want an argument for the possibility of preserving Yugoslavia, just look at the presence of socialist parties here, it's fucking nothing. I don't think any significant number of the population supported any kind of leftist economy, hell, the remnant of the League of Communists that ran in the first election was basically a socdem reformist party.

I think this is fairly different from the USSR, which was basically dismantled from above and this didn't have popular support.
I would honestly love to be convinced of the viability of Yugoslavia's self-management system, however. It sucks to be this pessimistic about it.

nije bilo bas tako druze

You should fully well known the reasons aren't so simple and there is a fair amount of fascistic mythos on both Serb and Croat side to justify the hatred. Many of the Croats and Serbs that peddle this chauvinism are too old to have spend their childhoods during the war and many of them embraced the same half-baked crypto-fascist revival mythos of chetnik/ustasha glorification as fully formed adults.

Classic bullshit CNN/Blairite talking point. Reported for imperialism.

Yes comrade, this justifies German racism towards Russians because the Soviet scum barbarically bombed them in 1945.

not remotely comparable but hey, why would reality stop you from indulging in fantasies of you and slobodan walking hand in hand over mass graves into a glorious future free of imperialism

Living under a fascistic government that starts a separatist war to form a racially pure ethnostate has ugly and unfortunate consequences for the civilians. It's depressing but true.

More liberalism. War is atrocious. It's in the nature of every army to commit atrocities. Palestinians blowing up buses full of innocent civilians, while a horrific tactic, won't sway me one inch away from supporting their struggle.

The war wasn't fought for a racially pure ethnostate, it was fought because the Serbs couldn't accept the break-up of Yugoslavia. The war was started by the Yugoslav Army and the SAO Krajina army. Google Z4 plan, they were offered a lot, they refused, and that's that.
Another bad comparison. Serbs =/= Palestinians, they weren't fighting for freedom or civil rights, they were fighting for Greater Serbia, their imperialist project. That is the struggle you're supporting.

support neoliberal sellouts against US imperialism

Jesus was Socialist, dumbass. also Serbs are based.


you on drugs m8?