Questions for "Real" Socialists

Aren't all jobs just an exchange in labour for goods or services?
I've been having a problem talking to you lot, cus' I believe a freelance plumber's boss is who ever is currently imploying him, while you guys don't believe he has a boss who can exploit him.
Can an employee exploit his boss?

Also is my bait and switch working well?

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Market forces act as an external pressure mechanism to lower wages due to competition. This includes wages for the self-employed. A plumber is thus required to lower his prices to match his competitors.
In a way he is "exploiting" himself to make money. You could also say that he is exploited by capital itself.

Or to put it another way…

XD He's exploiting himself? How the fuck can a person do that?

He is still being coerced by market pressure. I don't really think its correct to say he is exploited because there is no one extracting his surplus labour. user is trying to illustrate the point that even if people are self-employed or work at coops they wil still have their autonomy limited under capitalism. The commands just come from impersonal market forces rather than the boss.

So what exactly is the alternative you guys are proposing? Is it like soviet Russia? Or are you more on the anarchy side of communism?


Elaborate, am I aloud to trade my goods and or services in your own ideal system?

Here is a better example
Currently Amazon runs Amazon Web Services, which runs at about 25% net profit.
This sector of Amazon also pays the most on average per employee, the people that all work here live a "comfortable" life, yet they have massive amounts of surplus value extracted from their work.

No markets are inherently flawed and market externalities do not work since Humans cannot be assumed to be logical or rational actors.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. When you try to trade something you are saying that you no longer need the thing you want to give away, but you're going to hoard it until someone pays your price. Imagine pic related but instead the person with the salt shaker tells the other to fuck off until they give them a pound of gold.


Yes. The point is it make doing so obsolete, not illegal.

It would be like being a peasant in capitalism. Sure you can do it but, why?

And what's wrong with that amazon example?
Mate tell me, have you ever had these two contradictory thoughts inside your head at the same time before?

Mate, any system that criminalizes little Timmy's lemonade stand, is a system I'll never stand for. This isn't a matter of what is right to do, it is a matter of what is allowed to happen.

Why the fuck does little Timmy need to hoard lemonade like a little shit? He sets up shop on the street under the shade of an umbrella while everyone passing by is dying of heat and he boasts about hoarding lemonade that he will never use and will just throw away after he's done for the day due to it rotting in the heat, and he tells people they can have some if they cater to his demands. Is this the way you want your kids to behave? It just encourages sociopaths and discourages good hard working children doing good for their community.

At least try to spell your retardation out

we aren't going to "criminalize" his stand, we are going to make his business impossible to function. Production "of lemons/ building material" will be integrated into a network of plans, also there will be no "currency" to pay him, since we will reward labor by labor credit. Little Tommy will have no need to create a lemonade stand, and if he does, I'll probably use my labor tokens to withdraw a tone of lemons from the communal store and start giving the stuff away for free just to fuck with him

This is a pretty poorly though out statement. Of course you are making a moral argument because if you "stand" for any system, you are inherently arguing for some kind of correctness with it, and I don't see a material analysis of why this "is".

This is effectively money. A better solution would be to provide individual access to a lemon tree, or communal access to a greenhouse that produces tropical fruit year round. Then everyone can pick their own lemons and produce their own lemonade. Simple as that. No labor vouchers necessary, and in the meantime you can even set up a small farmers market in the parking lot for homemade goods. Trade does not need to be eliminated, just currency: we can automate the trade ledgers and distribute them by blockchain to everyone. Currency is obsolete.

Pretty sure you're describing currency. So long as trade exists currency of some kind will exist.

Marx would disagree. They are not considered currency since they do not circulate
>Currency is obsolete.
I feel a form of accounting for individual rationing is still nessisary as long as scarcity exists
however, this could just be me being cynical
good write up btw

sorry for doubleposting, but I could not let this one go
There is a correctness: it is to distribute the power that the state currently monopolizes for efficiency's sake as widely as possible, and at the same time to engineer this distribution to allow an individual to leverage this power without hurting himself or anyone else, or the society that allows him to use this power.

This will be like engineering a blockchain for bitcoin, but also for real goods produced and consumed within a society. The individual will be able to put new goods into circulation individually if he needs to, and others will do so as well, and there will be publicly "funded" baseline production to maintain transfer of goods in this system, a quasi-market, which will allow for participation, but also total transparency, where everyone will be able to police any waste that occurs.

Currency arose because of a strongman who existed back then mandated it so. It arose "organically" because the nature of coercion is "organic," regardless of what the cultists on the right like to say. It allows for the strongman to maintain influence in the market and reminds the local populace that he is in control. A blockchain would exist to serve the same purpose, but from the opposite end: the state would have a hard time seizing everyone's computers without a fight.

They can be exchanged for goods, and the goods themselves, once received, can be exchanged for privately, and even then there were huge problems with corruption in the USSR, where the bureaucracy peddled influence with hoarded goods, forcing people to need to do illegal shit to get by. Nothing weakens belief in an idea as needing to violate it to live well.

yes, but they cannot but they are destroyed once used. They do not go on to complete the M-C-M process that Marx uses to describe capitalism, therefor, they cannot be considered the same as currency which circulates

the USSR had a money currency, the Soviet Ruble. Also they never really followed the idea of labor time accounting, they just had a plan that functioned along the lines of capital accumulation, basically internal capitalism
here is some interesting reading on the topic

Hoard lemonade? Mate, little kids don't hoard lemonade, they SELL it on the curb. Everyone else has the ability to buy a 1 dollar 44oz soda from a circle K, if they choose so, or even drink free tap water. Whether he uses it or not is his parents choice. He's not demanding anything, he's offering lemonade for a bit of pocket change.
Yes, a hard working young lad, politely offering a nice cold drink in exchange for some money, sounds nice.
Can you give me a citation connecting lemonade stands to sociopaths?

Ok, glad to know some people in this world are so focused on making lemonade stands not exist. Sounds really fucking childish to me, but as long as no one is being forced I don't care.

Can someone give me thoughts on my bait and switch on pol?

So your not the smartest one huh?
I don't really care about a lemonade stand. My point was production presupposes distribution, and with the socialization of production……well, you should be getting it by now

I'm guessing you didn't get many replies? Even Holla Forumsacks can tell when something is really dumb

tell me though
do you ever get tired of making shitty posts and then being shit upon by the collective boards you post them too?
Have you tried reading about the topic you are discussing?
Is this just for fun, or are you actually trying to prove something?

Christian Commie and Gay Nazi in the same thread. I love this place.

half pol had gave no good feedback, polk deleted the post, but 8pol fell for it. so it was a 1/3 hit.

No, I'm not.
Yes, I do all the time, I've read the Conquest of Bread.
I'm invading spaces full of people I disagree with politically, to discuss said disagreements. It's what one might call a hobby.