Bitcoin in freefall celebration thread

One of the most bourgeois things you can do is to buy cryptos like this(or make your own and literally name it after a meme) and make profit for doing literally nothing.

just look at the cunts on halfchan weeping

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Is it sad that the co-opfags on a socialist board know more about business than the business and finance board?

rip in pieces

i cri erritiem



Whatdya know, I was right, no pyramid scheme can go on forever.

It took long enough

is it still falling? i thought it had a rapid drop, but then stabilised.
hope it falls sub 10k, love a good crash.

Is the fall of Bitcoin going to be enough to start a chain reaction that pops the bubbles that are in literally every sector of the world economy now? Because that's what I want to happen.

I'd like to see this as well. The next few days are gonna be interesting. Still, it's fun to watch wannabe bourgs scream for their mudpie money.

True but the alternative is work a shitty job that might injure or crush your soul just so you can barely make the rent.

The allure of freeing one's self from drudgery is all to alluring.

I admit I almost bought £100 of bitcoins a few days ago, I dodged a bullet I guess.

This is going to wreck the network if the price doesn't rebound. Unconfirmed transactions are piling up, and miners need ever higher prices to compensate for electricity costs.
This was bad years ago, but now the stakes are even higher. All the would-be-vampires that bought in at the peak want out, and they can't get their transactions through.

Some actually got into debt so they could get in on the digital mudpie mania.

Bitcoin is more like a ponzi. With investors reinvesting their earnings.

what caused the fall.

Probably another major site pulled from allowing you to pay with Bitcoin

Holy fuck /biz/ is on fire lmao

They're the same thing. The price only rises as long as the new fish can convince more idiots to buy in after them and so on and so on, once people stop coming in it's over

Bitcoin Cash.

Like honestly how stupid do you have to be to buy something that has no value that the whole media is reporting on about how the price is rocketing and expect to somehow make money like you're in on some industry secret? Why do the people who think they know the most about the markets know the least?

You see the peeps taking out second fucking mortgages for this shit? I hope some of them seppuku all over their monitors.

just a small market correction ;)

Not really.

How do you do fellow leftists?

Bitcoinfags are predominately petite bourgeoisie. They aren't our comrades.

nothing wrong with laughing at class traitors

If this is Marxism, then I am not a Marxist


The hardcore speculators have bought into the ideology of the movement. Most of them will find a way to blame statists and government interference for this

How the fuck do these people not see this shit coming?

So it fell down some 5k and now it swings around 15k. Will it go down ever further tomorrow?

Because they are small time bourg and wannabe smalltime bourg who don't understand how finance actually works.

Bubbles are mathematically impossible in this new paradigm. So are corrections and all else

Be honest Holla Forums, I know most of us are pretty okay with economics but does anyone here TRULY understand what is happening with bitcoin, what a bubble is, if this is a bubble, etc… I personally don't know what to believe and believe this is Holla Forums wanting to see change where there is none. Give me the truth boiz.
God I hope this is a full on no survivors crash.

How could anyone make that meme and not think that a "currency" where spending it means losing a huge amount of value over saving it for an indefinite period isn't actually a currency that people can use? The reason prices inflate is to encourage spending, it's one of the few interventions even the neoliberals allow because without it capitalism literally couldn't function.

In either case, no labour is being done, just turning money into more money. ButtCoiners are wannabe petite-bourgies and video cards are the proles.

I'm glad you understand. Now unfuck yourself.

I imagine it will rebound to an extent, go higher again, crash again, and so on until people lose all faith in it and it collapses completely, there's too many true believers still for it to completely end. But then, the technical issues might make that a moot point anyway.

As stupid as the people who started mining them when they were worth 10c after googling "how to make money easily"


But, and I am really not trying to be rude, do you have real experience/education/insight to back this up? Again, not trying to be rude just really would love some facts to help me understand this better.

Buttcoin makes me giggle like a child.

Hopefully bitcoin doesn't return to mean and completely dies. Lolberts talking about how great it is makes me go kinda "meh" about it

I have no idea what's going on but my gut instinct is that the underlying network is so clunky that it must be a bubble. I looked at the process for buying/selling bitcoin and it's such a fucking mess that it almost seems convincing the only reason the price keeps rising is because it's so hard to get out of.

Even if this isn't the end, I will be fucking baffled if people continue holding onto it. I mean just as a simple thing - to download some of the wallets, you need hundreds of gigabytes of disk space free to store the whole transaction ledger. Who the fuck thought this was possibly a good, scalable idea? (You can get other wallets that don't do this, but the fact it arises at all is gobsmacking.)

Don't forget the unstated class part of that image.
If I was a worker from 1929 to 1960, I would have a much bigger shopping - not a smaller one, because my wages increased. I don't have the option of not spending whatever money I have on food.
If I was a porky from 1929 to 1960, assuming I had some cash in 1929, in an inflationary environment (assuming I did no further work) I would be poorer. In a deflationary environment, I would be richer.

Deflation is essentially profiting on the destruction of real wealth creation and on human misery while you hold unproductive capital in hand, since the downwards price spiral results in part from increasing unemployment, just as an inflationary spiral arises from too much employment.

lel, this explains the salt increase on other boards

Retards are about to discover why central banks exist

Video cards are capital, they can be exploited.

Now we just need for the whole cryptocurrency market to burst, then we will feel safe
2018 is looking wild

2018 is going to be the 21st century's 1914

It's fucking surreal that we live in a world where an internet meme from 2011 is gonna cause a financial meltdown and an intenet meme from 2016 could start a nuclear war.

Thank you for being honest user, I like your idea, and it makes good sense to me. Bit coin is sticky shit, which probably helps with its ponzi scheme esque character, and is useless as a currency due to the speculation. All of these point to a useless currency, meaning bit coin only has value as a speculation currency.
But because I am a pessimist here is my nightmare scenario, buttcoin ends up being a stellar example of exchange value divorced from use value, the dream is never broken, Buttcoin wobbles in price, stabilizing.
My optimist scenario is Buttcoin being manipulated into the largest, most vicous short of all time.

"The Myth of Human Proletariat" by RB315-4B/87

Any idea what sparked this recent crash?

defend the 87ist revolution


It can't stabalize. If prices stopped going up and they went down or stayed the same for a long time all the people only in it for M-M would drop out. Meaning prices fall and more people drop out.

darkest, dawn, etc. history doesn't guarantee our victory, but it does give us a chance

People realizing it is useless as a currency hopefully

I was hoping we could have at least postponed that until 2020 at the earliest.
But it looks like it's all really going down in 2018.

Stefan is completely right and fiatcrush completely ignores him, giving some ideological bullshit. Bitcoin is a horrible currency since it heavily encourages NOT spending it. Also he's fucking wrong, using or trading it doesn't grow the network, only mining or hosting a network node, it puts a load on the network, and you don't want to increase a currency's value, that encourages hoarding instead of actually using it.

I'm not sure if it's accurate to call bitcoin a bubble, it's mostly a pyramid scheme. People buy into it entirely in the belief its price will go higher, and it can only do that if other people buy into it with the same belief.

No one cares about that at this point.

Holy shit they're really pumping out tethers to stop it from going down

I hate all of you, but holy fuck thank you for bringing this to my attention

The process of buying and selling isn't THAT onerous, depending on the service you use. Though there are, of course, limits to how much you can cash out at once. It's not that it's necessarily hard to get out, it's that the true believers don't WANT to get out. They just "know" that it will keep pumping and they'll be the next bitcoin millionaire if they just keep holding on to their coins, just you wait and see. Which of course exemplifies why it's useless as a currency, people don't buy it to spend it (unless they want drugs and don't have a local dealer) they buy it so they can sell at a later date.

it dips during the year and spikes in may, you guys are noobies and quite frankly its your own loss for not buying in. think of how many homeless people could be fed/clothed/ militarized with just one coin.
During this whole saga I've been in poverty so unable to buy in. I've just been waiting for ONE intelligent person to acquire her fortune, because then things will change.
also fuck MLs every time this thread comes up you have the coldest porridge ass takes.




Gee, the WHOLE year?
This is demonstrably untrue, the largest spikes have occurred in just the past few months, from August to just recently.

I feel sorry for him.

holy shit

its gone up 4.15% in the last hour

No coiners btfo.

I want it to hit 5k and make /biz/ collectively kill themselves

>tfw i never bought any bitcoins but enjoy the resentment of a bunch of know-it-all's just the same

Fuck. I wanted it to completely shit the bed so I could buy some and wait for it to go back up.

feel the same, me and all my friends divested from our housing portfolios in 2006, just like all the smart investors. that's why the bump in 2007 was so small.

What's going to happen is the small time coiners will slowly dwindle in number as they panic sell over and over again while the whales continue gobbling it up. The petty bourg will get BTFO as usual and everyone will laugh at them.

I don't want to be a porky though

I bought in. But I still don't care. Bitcoin has nothing to do with actually expanding the productive forces. It's primarily about speculation.
That most of the bitcoin community consists of ideological petite would-be vampires is enough reason to wish for the whole thing to crash with no survivors. The handful of libertarian socialists among them are a minority (such as the guy that went to Rohava).
My coins can rot for all I care.
It's also going to need more than one person with a stack of cryptos to launch an insurrection.
Feeding the homeless is mere bandaid for a much bigger problem.

The problem is the long-term. The True-Believers can keep pumping their wages and savings into it, but the community overall has run out of big fish external investors willing to inflate the market cap further.
What's left is a lot of people with a lot of coins, and no buyers outside a tiny clique of fanatics that believe MudpieCoin will hit 100K "any moment now!".

what's going on here

We're supposed to aspire to be successful leeches?

The price of bitcoin superimposed over a textbook speculative bubble.

Yeah never mind this whole thing is fucked I'm convinced.

What a shitpost. Libertarians liked the coin because it was antigovernment and fit their ideology, not because of any economic skill.
What else would I expect from some guy that gets enjoyment from contrarian excitement from people that aren't even him?
This thing is cracking like an egg, Holla Forums predicted it. Cry all you want.

Why does it lineup so perfectly? Smells of too good.

polite sage
I bet this guy is absolutely SCREAMING

my body is not ready

It is a classic in finance

T-thanks dad

But y doh

Because it IS a textbook speculative bubble.

The entire cryptocurrency market is less than .0025% of global capital. You're rooting for the wrong bubble to pop.

There's the possiblity that the idiots taking out second mortgages for autism kroner defaulting could pop housing bubble in the west.

Another lesson learned. Truly I am a smart, intelligent and safe individual who has nothing to worry about
now excuse me as I take a big sip of tea and check my portfolio of canadian real estate

Because petty porkies are dumb as fuck. Private home ownership in general encourages people to believe and act as if they have way more money than they actually have.

I suppose. The real value of BTC is in China extracting U.S. wealth without tariffs or sanctions.

You could have earned fortune but you cared so much about the economy that you didn't.. you're too moral for this wretched earth user.

But you do want money.

Materialist interests and all, read marx and/or stirner.

Unlike you folks, I'm not salty at people doing better than I predicted them to do. Nietzsche was right, resentment, pure resentment.
Then you missed out on an opportunity to go short and still make buck, which I'm sure is because your hands are too clean for the filth that is cash to be touched by them.

what crypto can I reasonably invest in today and make some money by next month?

Interestingly enough, all that Chinese wealth gets funneled back to North American through shacks and crack dens in Vancouver and Toronto

Its unstable as fuck and the bubble will probably pop soon. Spending that money and hookers and blow is a better investment because atleast you had fun.

Also speculative bubbles are powered by that exact attitude lol

don't forget condos in Toronto

The problem with speculative bubbles is that they are usually done with stuff that people NEED. Fake commodities like AssPennies only go once. Nobody speculates with tulips anymore.

lemonade stand

Trying to rent in condoland is like trying to pick who you want to get assraped by. I checked and couldn't find a decent studio apartment for less than 1400/month

There are cryptocurrencies that have utility. For example Folding coin is used for running simulations for cancer treatments and treatments for other medical disorders. Also Einsteinium is used by researchers for computing problems that are unsolvable without massive computational ability that most universities can't afford.

The only upsetting thing about Buttcoin is how perfectly they represent the beautiful world of mudpies our society has wrought. Other than that, this is absolutely hilarious.
This is unironically funny, made me smile. No its not that cash is too filthy for me, I lack the dedication/want to invest and the necessary funds. Investing does interest me though, I might start one day.
Do you realize how risky that is? We are talking about investing quite a lot of money in an unstable ponzischeme that has recently doubled in value. If you tried to short Buttcoin at the wrong time, you are looking at literally thousands of dollars of loss out of nowhere, and I would have had to predict the crash, while gaining the skill necessary to actually take advantage of it. I know Holla Forums is the cool kids club for economics but we aren't gods who can predict the exact time of a crash. I'm fairly certain one of the few ways you can short buttcoin is though futures trading, and I do NOT have the balls (read chromosomes) to get into that and predict when the drop will happen.

Behead all landlords tbqh

*Pseud detected*

Also love how nobody ever talks about how it was made because that would reveal that Capitalism has no implicit reward for advancing society.
The best part is these retards don't even understand the basis of Bitcoin, why the fuck would you care about the short term price of a currency with a hard cap limit?

Because it's the only shot these little piggies have at getting rich.

Your whole post reads like you thought over it so much you forgot to include context for the rest of us.
To make a load of money? Not really that complex.

>Implying he even exists

Because all but the stupidest buttcoiners eventually realised that a deflationary currency backed by childporn and organised crime is fucking dumb. The current interest in bitcoin started when chinese buisness men and the russian mob realised that it's a good way to launder money. Bitcoin in't a currency its a commodity.

lol what is this autism
because a limit on supply means 'nothing.''
guess how many copies of my dick are in the world? just one. a single version of my dick is in the world. sadly this doesn't mean the entire world is offering me obscene sums to give it to them.

feels bad when you come from a family of landlords/kulaks

ummm…how long is it? :3

Only enough to live comfortably
I can do that finishing up my CST course and actually working for a living

Don't be sad user. I come from a family of porkies.
I guess we'll still be guillotined though.

You're a good boi
So you'll probably only get a couple years hard labor for your Nazi tendencies then reintroduced to society.

polite sage
Should a guy have his dick size comitted to memory? Asking for a friend.

These people seem like shittier versions of day traders

They will make money in the long term, why do they care about the day to day?

I want to believe he exists for the sole reason that there is

But it really cheap to launder money, also you run the money laundering business with laundered money. Really a great achievement if you ask me.

Obviously you have to believe in markets and realize that this is only due to the demand.
You could very reasonably argue that the hard cap might mean nothing at all by the time it is reached, but I'm not sure your analogy sticks.

demand is a fickle beast

does this mean GPU prices will finally drop?

Lmao rejoice you flagellating fucker. If it makes you feel better this poor fag would gladly trade places with you, provided my family is traded for yours, of course.

Nope, a cap doesn't mean that they will make more money then than now.
Because they need to eat and don't want to wait for something that may never come through when they could have something tangible?!

Seriously stop crying about being wealthy, this is nothing but good fortune for you and yours. Think about it, most of society supports being fucked in the ass for money, you are hardly committing a crime against them by assuming the role they expect. As long as you quit being a porky when revolution comes, I don't see why you can't live in a Socialist society with a free conscience.

No, the ultimate failure of Bitcoin will mean that an ASIC resistant coin will probably make it even worse.

Why would you ever invest money you need into one of the most volatile assets in existence?

Wrong post response? If you meant to respond to me, I don't know why they would but they do. If you are implying that people don't invest money they need to survive/need to sustain their current arrangements, I don't know what to tell you other than, "Yes they do".

If I lift enough I can probably convince commissar Seamus that I'm good enough for hard labour in the Rockies

chill dude we all know we're joking. Trust me, I personally would love to hand over the burden of managing my family's (literal) estates over to people like you who probably know a lot more about how to hew timbre and till soil than I do. I mean what the hell can one person do with a fucking forest? Fence it off and grow potatoes my whole life?

You could sell some wood or use it to let other people do things in.

Haha yeah man I get that you are joking. I don't know shit about hewing lumber or tilling soil, but I'm sure I'd figure it out if I was given a plot of land. Does it really not interest you? Interesting that you are literal landowners and not "building owners".
Shit man what CAN'T you do? What immediately comes to mind is straight up slaughtering earth-Chan in the pursuit of cold hard cash from the timber. If it is reasonably close to a city, and there is a service/product they don't get much of you could set up a "production center"(general terms because I can't say what it would be) on your newly cleared land, and start making money. If you don't want to do that, Im fairly certain you can just replant the forests with a certain type of tree, and every year/every few years you make a tidy profit by paying people to take the trees. Perhaps you could start a farm, you should have less overhead than noat due to already owning the land, I could see easily selling out to a big farming company. If none of that interests you, you could just sell the land, and use the funds from that to do whatever you want. Typing this out makes me think how great it must be to own large amounts of property, and makes me wonder if there are opportunities I'm missing out on in my own life. I know at least some of myusing are divorced from reality, but it is cool to imagine.

is this actually pol bait? the actual fuck is this? no one said anything about bitcoin retards being white until you had to come crashing in with your nuclear take

I bought $70 in BTC when it was around 2 grand per bitcoin and now have around $650 so i'm pretty happy, who the fuck would buy bitcoin when it's obvious that it just hit the apex, that must have been what kept it from crashing for a few more days.

Trust me, I've gone over most of the possibilities for my family's property. First of all I really don't want to have to deal with the legal headaches. Some of these plots haven't been touched in decades and if I were to work them I'd probably have to put up fences, resurvey the boundaries and maybe even get the title quieted. People here go fucking NUTS when they think they might be able to carve off a sliver of your property through legal shenanigans. Paying lawyers and surveyers would cost a small fortune. And then if there's any major construction I'd need to go through environmental assessments to make sure I'm raping Earth-chan with a condom
If the land had good prospects it might still be worth it but it really isn't. Despite the fact that some of this land is less than an hour's drive from a major city farming or ranching in my part of Canada is financial suicide without dedicated buyers. We can't compete against the big agribusinesses in Ontario, PEI, Nova Scotia and California that have the massive capacity to crush me on price while still making a profit through sheer volume, especially the Cali fucks with their long growing seasons. Same thing for BC timber, although I guess I might be able to find someone willing to buy it for firewood (a lot of it is birch)
And I absolutely suck at business so I doubt I'd want to go full Engels and build a linen factory or whatever. The only thing that would really be in demand where I live and would be a smart bet would be a Subway or a Tim Hortons and I have no intention dying from a stress-related heart condition at age 49. Condos used to be the hot shit for a long while but demand has dried up as of late with the oil price collapse
We used to lease out an extra house but gave up on that after a string of greasy tenants

That's my plan, honestly, though if worst comes to worst and I need money to care for relatives, that person will be the highest bidder and not a well-meaning aspiring ancom beet farmer

You can probably start a business in the style of Uber letting people get wood on their own and paying you for the right.

Mmm… what's this slimy sensation I feel suddenly in my brain?

There were people predicting 100,00+ dollar bitcoin

That's what being a porky feels like.
It's intoxicating, watch out.

lmao people don't really bother to see if they're trespassing up here while they cut

The slimy sensation is the feeling of a new money porky
The feeling old money porkies get is in my experience way different. It's like how I used to feel in high school when I'd buy a big bag of chips or donut holes and my friends would start eyeing them during lunch. I'd subtly get defensive, like an animal defending its well-earned kill from vultures and other scavengers (even though our family didn't do much to "earn" land given to my ancestors by king george as a reward for being irish someplace other than ireland).

I've felt it's more like a laid-back - almost apathetic - attitude, compared to the paranoid predatory nature of new money. There just isn't that much of an urge to get involved in the rat race.
It's also why a landed aristocracy is preferable over an elite that primarily derives it's wealth from fluid business interests. It's a lot less vicious when you don't have to participate in the rat race, and aren't susceptible to the constantly falling rate of profit.

Does Holla Forums have more aristocrats and porkies than Holla Forums?


Can anyone explain why we care about and are so oppositional to bitcoin? I get that it’s a digital mudpie and exposes the absurdity of the modern abstraction-based FIRE economy and currency trading, but this seems excessive, especially the hostility to people trying to make money off it. I don’t see why we should go further than mockery, and head-shaking.

It's the crypto currency of the workers! All else is bourgeois

It is the closest thing the real world yet has to capitalism only negatively affecting people who deserve it.

Sometimes it's nice to sit back and watch the bloodshed.

I think it's mostly tribalism. Libertarians/ancaps really like it so we have to hate it and be glad when it's failing.

That’s petty and arguably dentrimental to our side. Especially bad are our own attempts to predict what will happen with bitcoin and the economic doomsday shit.

that's amazing.

i hope these burned bitcoiners learn a lesson and become marxists.

oh who i am i kidding they will never learn

tbh you should be rooting for crypto

And that does sound nice, but crypto isn’t going to do that. There are also other better cryptocurrencies besides bitcoin. Bitcoin is only what it is because its more or less he first, and because of media attention.

I don't know about you faggots, but I despise bitcoin because it is a pyramid scheme
I despise bitcoin because of all it stands for, the whole philosophy surrounding it, the whole inherently deflationary nature of it, the whole community treating it as a second coming of Christ

I despise bitcoin because the whole underlying blockchain technology is shit, the whole transaction ledger would inevitably grow to ridiculous levels
I despise bitcoin because it requires ridiculous amounts of energy to protect the network from counterfeit or outside takeover

do I need to continue?

i hope it crashes because WN groups are heavily leveraged in it. it would devastate their finances.

Energy consumption and related pollution of a small country for fucking meme money? How about that?

We hate it because of the tension between what it is, namely a digital mudpie with no use-value beyond illegal trade that is currently the object of a mania, and what its supporters claim it is, namely some kind of revolutionizing tool that proves the ancaps right.

We're being mad at people being wrong on the internet.

forgot to say, the only thing I can appreciate about bitcoin is its attempt at anonymous transactions
but even here it fails spectacularly
you need to trust some mixing service to even have a chance
plus again the whole blockchain technology where every transaction ever made is publicly available already undermines the whole effort

I think that cryptocurrencies could possibly work in a market socialist situation (early-stage socialism, mutualism, market anarchism etc) if some supervisional features were added to the code.

I've always suspected bitcoin was just an elaborate pump and dump, so I'm pretty fucking pleased at the way shit went down.

First, this guy cashes out on the 21st:

"It now takes on average four to five hours to confirm a bitcoin transaction", but despite this being a ridiculous amount of time to trade a speculative investment, "around $50m of [Bitcoin futures] contracts changed hands in the first three hours of trading" just a few days later:

Typical lolbertarians, think they're outsmarting Wall St, end up getting fucked by Wall St.

1. they're smug about it
2. it's stupid
3. it's full of libertarian ideology, combining 1 and 2 in the most tedious way.

you don't have to be nostradamus to wager that an asset rapidly appreciating in value isn't something that lasts indefinitely.
even houses will one day fall.

howling at the idea it subverts it given the primary reason it's celebrated is as a speculative asset valued in real money rather than a genuine transactional currency. (Otherwise, why would you care about the exchange rate?)
also banking should be a nationalised function, i.e. as centralized as physically possible.

I can't even look at it because my browser extensions block the page. Sasuga, Hiroshima.

How the hell do people still buy into these retarded bubbles and stick with 'em to the end even though they have hundreds of years of examples of why it's a bad idea?



can't tell if ironic or not

Butthurt no coiners

That's all it is



No idea if it's real. I found it on another board. Tend to keep my distance from reddit.


thread theme

The only way this could be better is if you could short Bitcoins like you can stocks

huh you can't?
pretty sure there are bitcoin futures

Why don't these idiots just trade stocks or gold if they want to play investors so much?

because they're dumb and don't actually know anything about finance

I enjoy the thought of libertarians falling into destitute poverty. This world will never see justice, so I'll console myself with little things like this.


fucken BASED

11K now




and back to 11k

Press F for all the fallen victims to come in the next few days.

bitcoin at 11,807

I don't think people realize that this is an expected correction. We buttcoiners are doing fine; its the normies who jumped on it after they heard about it on CNBC who are el fucked-oh.

Normies are the only ones keeping prices above like 700$.

Stop being so mean! He probably took the time to watch five whole minutes of a Jordan Peterson lecture.

Can you give a critique of Nietzsche? I haven't studied him and want to know what people say about his ideas.

recovery phase it's will juggle between 11k - 15k and crash again.

It's not that serious mane

those pesky commies are at it again!

stop being a fucking brainlet, Nietzsche is a genius and an essential philosopher to read.

Getting some sloppy rehashed criticism of Nietzsche because some idiot name dropped is beyond retarded

Of course nobody wants your dick, there's a larger supply of better dicks available within the sexual marketplace.

Not if it's small. If the mods find out, you could be banned. Only Chad Thundercocks on this board.

is this the stupidest bubble ever?

Can you stop accusing other people of being brainlets, when you in fact, are a psued

Am I supposed to think that would be a bad thing?

The stench of your asshurt can be smelled all the way here

Seems like we just passed through the bull trap

I can't believe I'm having so much fun as the old 4chan days. Redditors suicide best day of my life. I hated those people so much. What they thought, that it was the garden of earthly desires? That everyone could be rich? That they were smart? I am going to jack off to this shit, I hope a lot of people finally realize you cant manage society by interner memes


Hey guys, it's going to back up right?

Didn't Marx try investing some money into the market once and end up losing it?

Whats funnier buttcoin or shitcoin?

Most economists aren't that good at making money that doesn't mean their theories don't hold good. And I'd point out that in Marx's time the vast majority of political-economy was macro to use a modern term, very little had been done in the way of trying to predict individual stock and commodity movements.

buttcoin is obviously funnier, shitcoin is just an insult

buttcoin imo

What happens when a title falls into the lap of a bumbling hapsburg failson like me though
Wouldn't this only be the case if land ownings were forced to stay small and hereditary? Otherwise one big megaclan could unite and roll over their small competitors.

Fighting games would probably get more popular among women if they introduced unlockable skins like these for male fighters

probably not
rip your savings

Sure. I say 1 BTC will eventually be worth more than 1 million USD (but hotdog might cost $100,000 USD by that point).

That said, I remember SeriousPeople (tm) personally telling me bitcoin is going to go bust soon. It cost about 40 euro at the time. So, pardon a certain level of amusement when people here go "wee, it's going to fall to $10k soon".

Not really. Banks are very untrustworthy today, so BitCoin is quite clever thing. It literally runs on distrust towards Capitalist institutions. That said, it is inherently Bourgeois (due to mining), so it is unsuitable for Socialists.

Lol what a lame excuse to cover for the fact that Karl was too stupid to understand basic supply and demand just like he didn't understand that everyone isn't a neutral, equal blank slate

Finance and economics are two different things.

Hot take I know: what if this somehow recovers and 1 buttcoin is equal to 1 million USD within a few years, anyone who was one of the originals to buy going to use it to fund revolutions


You don't read much do you?

You're just not smart enough to understand either. Read an econ book for once and you'd know better, just like anyone else on this board



Why would you want to start a Revolution if you are filthy rich?

top kek

Because I'd rather further the socialist cause than be a filthy porky


autism kroner
ayn rand fun bux

Their BTFO'ing themselves at this point.



Anybody know how Dogecoin is doing?

Who would have thought that a currency backed by drugs, childporn and libertarian fever dreams would be a bad idea?

You obviously have no idea what the word bourgeois means. Also, it's sad to see so many imbeciles in here trashing a hard decentralized currency that cannot be destroyed or artificially manipulated.

Why not make a future where everyone is rich? So you don't have to worry and waste your resources protecting and hoarding your resource from those who aren't.

Fully automated communism would make the world a much simpler one, hierarchies becoming redundant, fear and distrust of your fellow man minimilising and to free oneself from materialist pursuits of obtaining capital, expanding it, protecting it and passing it on would be another consideration.

Even from a cultural point of view, the abolition of intellectual property birthing a new renaissance and the reinvigoration of science and innovation unabated by patents and trademarks, making the technology required for a better and even longer quality of life arrive sooner rather than later is priceless to even the most miserly of porkies.

Engels gave up a cushy future running his father's textile factories, Che Guevara gave up a cushy life of a well paid doctor, there are probably other examples where revolutionaries in apparent priveledge gave it up for a better future for all.

Neither do you it seems.

Why do you pay capital gains tax on realised appreciations made on cryptocurrency then smartass?

Yes assuming you declare it of course.

A currency that fluctuates wildly in value is by definition not a hard currency and if your currency can be tanked by a goon saying "bitcoin crashing sell sell sell" it is easily manipulated.

Truly an improvement.

Take that Lenin hat off

the eternal cuck

Muke is now more of a joke than Jason.

i haven't kept up with muke's retardation. Is he Anarcho-Unruhe now?

I trust hoarding gold and burying it in my backyard more than bitcoin.

atleast you can't accidently delete your gold stash

Implying women need to masturbate to fucking polygons and can't just get out the house and fuck whatever they want

please don't do that fucking derail

Not just women. When do we get dong flopping physics to match the boob jiggle?

I'm a lefty and I've made about 2k on crypto

whatever. I making money off bad ancap traders

Make him a charge character it's golden

Is this the beginning of the end of le funi capitalist simple man smug internet shit?

Nothing wrong with using it to make dosh from idiots
It is however retarded ancap af to preach bitcoins as if they're the economic salvation the world needs… for some reason

because its delfationary and governments can't touch it maaaaaannnnnn


yeah dude! It totally, like, only increases in value due to trades, like stocks! But it can't crash, because, like, it's totally not like stocks!

the value I see in it is for non-US-citizens to get around authoritarian gvmt restrictions, but even then btc isn't the best for that job, there's other altcoins for that

Brainlet here why is deflation bad? Not saying it's good I just don't know about it

because then people don't spend the $$ on anything

one of the reasons no stores adopted cryptocurrency is because all people want to do is save or trade the crypto for more crypto

same thing would happen is USD hyperdeflated, we would all be saving it and the economy would dip/crash because nothing is being bought

see Japan 1995-now

It's neither bad or good. It's an unfair comparison to bitcoin since it's not a currency. It's more alike a virtual form of useless gold. Gold that can only be used in trade from real money to that form of gold. The more people buy the gold, the higher its market value becomes. Until, eventually, it can increase no further and the bubble pops
After the pop, the difference between the virtual and real gold becomes apparent. The virtual becomes a useless comodity, no one wants to buy it. Yet with real gold, it still holds use value, it's a real substance people will want to have. Be it for exchange value or use value


Future will inevitably have some dead and some in gulags. We are making future in which we are neither - and this strongly suggests that we have to ensure that it is the other side (Capitalists & Co) who end ups either of those. So we are quite explicitly not making everyone rich. Not in a foreseeable future.

Bah. Socialist State will still have you protecting your resources (in a state-owned form) from corrupt managers and bureaucrats.

Is impossible, just like fully automated capitalism (from which it is derived). That's what "Cybernetics is pseudoscience" meme is about.

Moreover, final-stage Communism is not going to happen any time soon. What we are going for is first-stage (State Socialism).

World never becomes simpler. It becomes less deranged.

Except that is uncertain. Moreover, it is also uncertain if said Capitalist will get the treatment.

Those are far and few between. People who get very rich rarely keep their Socialist views.

Why, though? Genuine question.

Looks like Bitcoin is recovering, it's shooting towards 15k again

Hope stage
Massive, gigantic crash is inevitable

It'll recover and then level off before the big crash. Bitcoin'ss just coming out of the bull trap.

Is this mr bones ride

Except it is unlikely that nobody at all will be buying bitcoin. Consequently, bubble-popping will be no different from regular gold bubble (which, mind you, never "burst" to the level when only its aesthetic / technological qualities were relevant).


Someone still has to design/make/program/maintain/repair "fully-automated" everything.

I feel like an idiot not buying LTC when it was like $150 a few hours ago

Not really, there are robots today that program and design other robots and machines.
AI is completely self taught nowadays, thanks to an AI that teaches the AI to become smart

There was a gigantic crash already
like 50% of the BTC price, and 200 billion off of the global cryptocurrency market

Basically anticipated me. I was under the impression that AI was becoming increasingly self sufficient. Didn't one of those at google basically make a better version of itself recently?


That's smallfry user


i mean say what you will about tulips but atleast they look pretty

Do you feel like an idiot in casino too? You could've won a lot of cash, if you placed your bet on some specific number.

[hollow laughter] You do not want to go in that direction.

Yeah. Artificial Idiocy.

How old are you?

could be a 90% correction like 2014, I just don't see evidence for that happening right now

Yepp, every new AI bases it's code on the previous design, but is altered slightly by an AI designed to make adjustments. It is then testen vigirously to see if it's an improvement. If not, it's trashed. If so, it replaces the old AI.
At this stage, it's fucking mindblowing how smart AI have become

I hope this retard runs for president again.


where we are going we have jetpacks

You need humans to recognize that it became better. And that takes a lot of work. Especially, for complicated stuff.

What? No they don't, the ai is able to recognize if it's an improvement or not. Do you even know how this shit works?


Deflation means the people with money gain value and debtors and people who live off of paychecks get fucked.
an easy example is 10 people has -10 dollars 100 people have no assets and live by paychecks and 1 person has 100 dollars. If the value of dollars double the debtors get fucked and porky throws a parade.
Deflation also makes credit crunches very strenuous to get out of and on top of that deflation is somewhat cyclical for reasons that went into.

It's not personal. I need some understanding of your (incredibly weird) position to give a reply that would make sense for you.

Since I have no idea what "this shit" you are talking about, the answer is obviously "I don't know".

However, I have an understanding of how complex systems work and let me assure you: nobody is insane enough to let untested black box run something important (if they are, they are going to pay for it dearly).

Someone tell this fag to read Debt already.

It also means that the value of the paychecks of those living paycheck-to-paycheck increases. Had it up to here with the dishonest Keynesian sophists on this board.

Ok, fair enough. But what me and the other user are arguing for is that eventually they'll get safe and refined enough that it will become feasible to have them run some important shit. I don't know, why shouldn't it be possible?
And even if it isn't. I can't imagine any future society that requires anywhere close to 8 hours of labour a day 5 days a week.

*Any non porky infested hellhole, should go without saying.

I was making the assumption that wages would naturally adjust with inflation, just like how you don't assume that deflation decreases wages in general (unless you're accounting for minimum wage law).
Like do you think that nominal wages will stay the same when nominal prices fall? Literally how would that possible?
Debts and assets obviously don't have a corresponding adjustment mechanisms.
Barely, I'm certainly not a soc-dem.

Its at 14k now.

I mixed up deflation and inflation in the first line.

fuck yeah bull trap

Anyone know how far it's sunk? I don't know how but I want to keep track of prices now

it was down to 11K from 20K now its back up to 14K

I just realized some of these bitcoin speculators might actually do the one true capitalist death and jump off of an office building.


Looks like it's almost back?

Its still around 6000$ below its peak.

Give it a bit, and watch it collapse entirely. 11k was the bull trap. See

I want to believe

Oh cool maybe I can get some Ethereum for cheap!

You should just take out a payday loan and go all in on bitcoin. Be sure also to re-mortgage your house, withdraw your 401K and spend your kids college fund too!
According to /biz/ and r/bitcoin/ it will hit 60K before the end of the year!
Buy the dip!

Do you have any reason not to let said well-meaning ancom beet farmers to use it while it's not being sold off to the highest bidder?


Well someone needs to be blamed. The system itself is infallible, mathematically designed, generated by human nature, etc.

What did you mean by this?




You are talking about something being run independently from human input (fully automated). I.e. nobody sets everything up, not even by pressing buttons (while knowing what he is doing - which is compound labour).

It is certainly possible, but it is also highly inadvisable. This is essentially Cult of the Machine (Warhammer), where people worship autonomous technosphere. As I said - I can't even begin to understand why would anyone seriously consider this a good thing. The only proper definition of the whole economy being run like this is "visceral nightmare", not Communism.

Well, no. We can already switch to ~5 hours (in First World, at least) - which could get to ~10-15 hours per week after decade of Socialism (provided no World Wars - which is unlikely). But that's not the question. The question is absolute abolition of labour.

This but unironically. Just replace bitcoin with Ethereum.


That was 2003

bet this runt hasn't even read a high-school level econ book, but thinks he's smart because he's read some pop science economics book that's half oversimplification and half polemic.

ah yes, let's celebrate a currency that controls people over a currency that people control
not to mention it can be manipulated, the manipulators are just private sector hoarders rather than public institutions trying to conduct macroeconomic policy.

how good for those in employment
such a shame unemployment is 30% because we're in another fucking depression.

but even if we look at those paychecks going up in value: This happens on a timed basis. i.e. you get $100 this week, $100 next week, $100 the week after. Now even if that's going $100, $105, $120 in real terms, you lose out because you didn't have the choice to hoard that $100 in week one to have it appreciate rapidly - you had to spend it because you're a prole who has rent to pay and food to fund.
but if you've got $100,000 in savings, you get to watch that bloat while doing literally no work. If you spend at proletarian levels (say, you own your mansion and eat frugally) you'll get sums that prole doesn't earn in a year for masturbating all day.

something is wrong with me, i feel sorry for you, but i probably shouldn't. not only because you're an anarchist but you also had that much disposable money to invest.
unless you're just an idiot who really fucked up.

Well you better try and sell it now while it's bounced back a few k before it freefalls again. You'll come closer to breaking even at least.

Enjoy those five hour transaction waits.

tfw i've got 1/20th of a shitcoin down the back of the sofa
am i gonna be rich?

You really brought this on yourself for gambling.

just let them stew a little bit more down the back of your sofa and you´ll be at least a millionaire by January my dude!

That sounds like Pol Pot logic, correct me if I'm wrong but you're describing class as though it were something to eradicate and abolish, it would be more expedient if you developed technology such that it made such class relations redundant, I'm a little optimistic but if we don't achieve socialism through revolution, the inevitable technological advances we make however hampered by capitalist economics will eventually have society sleep walk into socialism without even realising the transition until long after academia is no longer largely subservient to diminishing bourgeoisie hegemony.

I've already invested my house, my parents house, my dog house and mortgaged ownership of my tender boy hole towards my pile of buttcoins. I'm so ready to see that value start raising again!

I'm sorry, but you are an idiot and should have followed at least zerohedge on twitter. If you knew how much a bitcoin was worth in 2011 or had witnessed the first big sell off in 2013, you would have known this was a very bad idea.
It's okay, we all make mistakes, but you deserve to feel like shit right now, and try to learn something from your inanity.

This whole crypto fad only proves how desperate people really are for easy money and what they're willing to do in order to get instantly rich without having to work a single minute in their life.

Isn't that what we're trying to achieve? To use technology to liberate ourselves from work.

There's no glory in wasting your life away at work, it's just a means to an end after all.

No because we aren't bourgeois parasites.

He who does not work shall not eat.

So life under communism will be just as dire and even more laborious than under capitalism.

pls no fetishise work

You are a fucking idiot too. Communism == abolition of the commodity form == production solely for use == less work, more free time.
Take fifteen minutes and read this :


You're missing the point, we can create more jobs if we destroyed the machines and had to revert to using neolithic technology, as socialists we want to work towards a society where none shall have to work, you shouldn't think ill of these buttcoin traders for not wanting to work, it's not like they are economically literate and realise that they're engaging in parasitism when they make capital gains.

no worries, just keep pressing those butt-cheeks against the couch and you and your family and even all the bums of your cousins and your dog´s puppies; you will all be living in a mid-sized Caribbean island soon!

Work isn't dire unless the value of your labor is directly taken away from you. Work is just a regular part of healthy human existence, humans are creative productive beings by default. To be a parasite is to be anti-human.

If you won't work you are living off the labor of others. You are a parasite.

checks out

People will still work in communism. It isn't some utopia where food drops in your mouth by itself.

If you hate work you might as well just become an ancap.

if it isn't dire it isn't work, it's just activity.

Work is a productive activity. Not all activity is productive.

I've been shitposting all day and this is still the worst post on Holla Forums right now. Well done.

No bread for you sorry

It's not a question of how much you are working, but if it is useful or not.
You can dig a big hole with a shovel and fill it back. It can be hard and exhausting, but it's useless in the end.
If you want an example of job that is extremely useless, think of telemarketing or sales representatives.
Read the first chapter of Das Kapital.

I agree. From our pointview it's useless, but the logic of capitalism and markets gives it a purpose, and that purpose is profit.

Capitalism is filled with jobs that give out the aura of uselessness around them, that's why work under capitalism feels "dire", in other words alienating.


>but it's capitalism that gives them an "aura of uselessness" whatever the fuck that means
Did I miss anything?

The job feels useless because you are alienated from your own labor, pure and simple.
Something so stupid as telemarketing wouldn't exist in communism.

Well in this case, we agree. I'm personally a NEET right now (probably not for much longer tho), and I'm not against work that is useful. I'm just depressed at the prospect of wasting 40-45 hours of my week working at some stupid ass job to pretend I'm doing shit to earn the right to live, when I could be doing meaningful chores 15 hours by week and enjoy idleness, learning stuff at the university, playing music or whatever the rest of the time, if I lived in a society that isn't fucked up. This is what we should strive for.

So you agree that telemarketing is stupid, but it's still not inherently useless?

Glad we understand each other.

Telemarketing is "useful" in capitalism because its usefulness is purely defined by the amount of Porky's profit and nothing else. For a regular working salesman who is forced to work there it has no purpose or meaning.

So telemarketing is useless. Got it.

That's not any sort of refutation. Why is bitcoin bourgeois? You have deliberately avoided the point. The fact that taxation exists does not make everything bourgeois. On the contrary, a decentralized currency with an unmodifiable and public ledger is explicitly in the interest of the common man.

In other words, anything that cannot be converted to dollar bills (which are fraudulent and have no value) has no value. Thank you for your input. Bitcoin is the hardest currency known to man; it is even harder than gold- since new gold can be mined.

Demonstrably false.
It is literally impossible to destroy a Bitcoin. Yes, you can buy them and send them to a wallet and then burn the key, but all you have done is arbitrarily lower the amount of Bitcoin in circulation from 21 million to 20 million. Wow, what a shock.

Bless you.

Unless you seriously dream about relapsing to a medieval century trade economy, publicly verifiable transactions of finite currency will serve as an underpinning for FALC.

Another idiot. Your problem is not with Bitcoin itself, but with capitalist interests duping miners and other buyers into exchanging Bitcoin for USD. In other words, your problem is with USD.

Again, you are thinking of USD. Bitcoin can be exchanged for USD, and USD can be manipulated. Bitcoin cannot be manipulated.

this is akin to arguing that currency traders can't manipulate the £ against the will of the British Government because they (ultimately) have authority over the number of £ in circulation. (Ignoring, of course, that part of the value of those £ is that they can be exchanged for $ or Euro to buy foreign goods.)
Currencies don't exist in isolation. The value of Bitcoin is determined relative to all other crypto and to real currencies. The fact there are only X bitcoin in existence, increased only according to a pre-determined algorithm, means nothing when traders who accept bitcoin are thinking in terms of value in real money. Oh look, the number of BTC in existence has remained exactly the same - but the price in USD has plunged and suddenly prices in BTC are increasing!

to reply to points made to people who aren't me:
Deflation benefits those who already have a buffer stock of capital over those who have to spend nearly everything they earn on daily living. You cannot save the money you need to eat.
so why do people always brag about how many worthless fake dollars their super valuable bitcoin can buy? shouldn't dollar-holders be bragging that they have the privilege of being able to give 10000 worthless scraps of paper for valuable digital data?
ah yes the ol' "it's not cryptocurrency it's crony-cryptocurrency!"
there is literally no point in having finite currency. The quantity of currency in circulation should be a democratic political decision. A finite quantity of currency just entails deflation. (Not to mention time-limited non-exchangable labour vouchers are prob. better.)

enjoy your mudpies lol

No, the British Government increases and throttles the printing of £ according to the directives handed down to them by their banking cartels. There can be no directives handed down to "Bitcoiners" because Bitcoin is completely decentralized.
Any economic model that is based on a finite currency is deflationary, but this deflation is self correcting. There can be no wasteful policy, no stimulus approval to keep the capitalist hell going. Conversely, the inflationary nature of USD can be exploited for centuries to come.
Why do so many people always brag about how many worthless fake Bitcoins their super valuable USD can buy?
It's really unbelievable that you would try to make that point while arguing with that flag. It's not democracy that Hillary won the popular vote in America, it's crony democracy!
Excellent point.
Lmao. Labour vouchers, if exist at all, would only be used in the very early stages of building communism. Once we are on track, a finite currency with a publicly verifiable ledger is essential for success.

no it doesn't, private banks create new money without direct central bank accountability.
Which means nothing in a world with multiple currencies. You completely ignored my key point: Even with a fixed number of all currencies in circulation, speculators can manipulate the value of one by selling it en-masse to purchase another. (Indeed with BTC this is even easier because we could just create new $ to buy finite BTC.)
ah yes the gilded age killed capitalism
let me just enjoy the supremely efficient policy of 30% unemployment.
that was literally what I said after the part quoted.
The joke is that nobody does this. Nobody says "Yay, I just spent $10000 on some data that if i'm lucky I can buy pizza with!"
lol what are you even trying to say
Because it's a core element of economic management.
ah yes let's have deflationary socialism, where those who work early on can rest on their laurels and watch their assets appreciate while those who had the misfortune to be born later on must toil to fund their predecessors.
give me one good reason for this nonsense

It's the science of regulatory systems, it has nothing to do with "full automation".

My ancom friend you should know better than to gamble

who are you trying to bullshit here
just look at this shit
such decentralization, much wow
I guess having Intel and AMD is now an example of decentralization too

mandatory reading for every bitcoin fag like you


bitcoin is socialist

2001-3 was the equivalent of the Balkan wars. 2018 will have our equivalent of the July crisis.

I'm stealing that.

those recently stolen butt coins

What country do you live in fam? From what I can tell the unemployment rate is going down across most industrialized countries. You do realize that pensioners and cash-benefit welfare recipients benefit from deflation, right? If you have a low fixed income then inflation is going to harm you–one of the reasons OECD governments manipulate their inflation indexes is so they don't have to pay extra-fiatbux to elderly pensioners.

If unemployment really is as bad as 30% then wouldn't that show that inflationary policy hasn't worked to stop unemployment? I don't think unemployment was even that bad in the Depression and they actually counted men employed in government works programs as unemployed in the US. If the US labor bureau was run by Clintonites back then they would be claiming 0% unemployment!

Yes, but if I wasn't able to buy diapers last week and had to use some substitute but now I can afford it this week that could make some difference in a person's quality of life. Capitalists thrive either way under capitalism–ever heard of Hugo Stinnes? He practically ran Weimar Germany as his personal Kingdom during the hyper-inflation, if he had been able to ride out the deflationary crash to normalcy he probably would have came away richer than Bezos is today. This is why we need an end to capitalism because, inflation, deflation, it doesn't matter workers get screwed.

Now, let's imagine the opposite of your example with inflation it would go:$100, $90, $80 etc. if I don't get a raise in that time my purchasing power is going down. Now, let's imagine I'm a heavily indebted and rent-burdened individual. I have $30 to spend a week on groceries and other essentials, $30 goes towards paying my debt burden weekly and $40 goes towards weekly rent and insurance. Okay, so assuming everything holds equal, by the time our worker hits $80 his weekly debt-burden has been wiped out by 2/3 and by the time it hits $70 it has basically been cleared. But I haven't received a pay-increase and so even though the real-burden of what I pay is almost nothing in comparison to the level it was previously contracted at I still make that means that 70% of my income still goes to paying the rentiers but the 30% I have left is worth about maybe 2/3 of what it was before. If I received a raise on-top of this this wouldn't be worrying but it seems to me that what this prole really needed in the first place was a wage-increase and not a wage-cut via inflation.

We've seen a large expansion in consumer spending precisely because of a major problem of modern inflationary economics: stagnant wages and constant inflation. Even if we assume that wages do go up but at a slower rate than inflation during this period I think we would still see an increasing debt-burden. Why? Because, inflation encourages credit binges whereas deflation encourages saving. Both have their problems but the obvious problem for most people is the former problem with many people in-debted beyond their capacity pay in the near-future.

So, we looked previously at the case of an in-debted prole who was essentially one missed paycheck away from bankruptcy and we saw part of the promise of inflationary economics in that it could reduce the real burden of financial/rental obligations. If our prole took on an extra $20 every week to make up for the loss of his purchasing power pretty soon he will top of his debt level again and will be left with a financialized weekly income of say $60 instead of $30. In fact, even with a consistent lockstep raise he would be somewhat foolish not to take advantage of the inflationary wave by taking out debt that will be repaid by money that is much lower in value–the effect will be that the damage of a monthly interest payment will be minimized or wiped out. This is one reason why investors are interested in high-performance stocks, real estate, and cryptocurrencies instead of bonds and low-divided slow-growth stocks–if you don't see big returns then you're losing money in real terms to the constant pressure of inflation as you alluded to.

However, this isn't completely opposed to capitalist interests as retail and some factions of the industrialist class such as consumer good producers and oil producers do well under conditions of inflation. Rising prices saves them some of the pain of the rapid deflation of prices typical of classical capitalism.

Those harmed by inflation such as financiers, bankers, and landlords tend to find ways to work around it like pre-emporily raising their interest rates, prices, and rents.

btw I respect the thought you put into your post and am curious what your response will be

Reminder that the suicide hotline has not been shown to reduce suicide rates.


Gold has actual uses though.

Women don't get off on visuals the way men do. Fanservice costumes for the boys would mostly be appreciated by the gay community. Women's arousal cues are more about behavior, so it's hard to sexualize male characters especially in a game where they just fight (except for women who are turned on by the fighting).

Britain. Unemployment is "the lowest since the 1970s" on the basis of our corrupt politicians cheating the figures a fair bit, and by pushing people into shocking levels of under-employment. (Drive for Uber an hour a week? Not unemployed!)
Yes (with the caveat above), but none of those countries are undergoing sustained deflation, which was my point in noting 30% unemployment. (Something that has essentially disappeared with the realisation that constant 2% inflation is more managable and stable than 2% deflation today and 4% inflation tomorrow.)
Only to a greater degree than under inflation if their governments are nasty and don't index link. (Or in pensioners case, triple lock.)
They don't really manipulate them too much. The main debate comes from whether you use CPI or RPI, and in terms of cash benefits there's less reason to use RPI (since housing is usually covered by a separate benefit to regular payments for food, etc.) even if RPI is the more rational overall measure since housing is a necessary good. In pensioners case in particular, they've done better than the working in the UK since 2008 due to a government policy of increasing pensions by (a) inflation (b) average wage increase or (c) 2% - with inflation low, and wages stagnant they've made a good job of it.
Not necessarily. Unemployment wasn't 30%, but it did spike in the 1970s alongside inflation for various reasons. Inflation is a single variable and economies are complex things. Nonetheless, I reiterate that the 30% figure refers to a deflationary environment.
The question isn't so much whether you can afford it this week and not afford it the next, but how we make you able to afford it. In particular reference to the graph, in Britain wages outpaced inflation consistently, save two periods (~1976-1978, where wages were restrained intentionally, and 2008-now where everything is shit.),I believe the same was true of unemployment benefit under the Blair government, but I'm not so sure about under Thatcher (where sub-inflation increases may have been a tempting cost saving, as they are for the current government who froze the increase because - well - they're nasty.)
If he gets a wage increase via deflation (with no nominal increase), he's giving it right out again in debt repayment. If he gets it by keeping pace with inflation, he's having his debt wiped out at the same time, boosting the real effect of the increase further.
The obvious solution to this isn't deflation (or even just increasing interest rates.) though, it's just direct controls on lending for consumption. It takes two to create a loan, and too little emphasis is put on the role of banks accepting applications. (An ancillary would of course be restoring government hardship payments/loans to a reasonable level, reducing the need for payday lending type institutions.) Then you could still have lending for productive purposes. (since you aren't using a blunt instrument like interest rates)

Stagnant wages would seem more a problem arising out of the beating down of trade unions, intentional policies of mass unemployment (ah, NAIRU…), than one directly related to inflation. Indeed, I should raise the partial-primary reason I defend inflation is because full employment is inflationary since it can start a wage-price spiral. (And so we can work backwards - defending deflation may mean defending deflationary policies, which have awful results. It should be noted that in the segment of the related graph where, during the 1970s wage-increases fail to keep pace with price increases it's because the government was intentionally implementing disinflationary policy, i.e. holding down wages with a "voluntary" sub-inflation maximum on pay increases.)

The class element you mention is perhaps the most interesting overall situation of modern capitalism, when we subdivide the capitalists. I mean, I unashamedly align myself with the industrialist capitalist over the financial capitalist. Here I'd note the novel thing that while financial capital and landlords can counteract inflation, this tendency can be constrained. Firstly there's the novel case where sometimes they'll put their money into a loss-making asset anyway (govt. bonds in some cases for example) because it's essentially the safest place it can go, and means a given accepted loss instead of risking a greater one. Then there's the possibility of other manipulations like rent controls on the rentier. In most cases the overall result should be neutral (say, 2% inflation and 3% interest rates. vs 0% and 1%) instead of being built in entirely.

I return only now to the point about Hugo Stinnes, because I won't overall dispute that
Since there is of course one obvious rejoinder to much of what I've said - in particular the element of rent controls or such - which is that capitalists don't tend to care much for the high-minded policy goals of politicians, and don't mind tying themselves up in Byzantine ways to screw everything up. One particularly novel thing has to be considering the 1970s wage-price spiral in the UK: Private Capitalists were often the least willing to co-operate in controlling inflation by refusing pay increases temporarily, on the basis that a strike would disrupt business, while they could still put up prices. Because there were no statutory controls, and attempts by the government to punish businesses were defeated in parliament, the whole wage restraint policy fell into farce and collapsed. Then we got Thatcher and the open-and-intentional recreation of mass unemployment, since the unemployed don't demand raises and scare the employed into not doing so either.

With that said, I should note that in purely aesthetic terms of how to destroy capitalism I prefer over-militant trade unions pulling Britain over the precipice with inflation at 50% to the unemployed taking up arms with deflation at 5%…

Third reply for a few reasons.
1. to post this image I found immediately after posting which is a good indication of the situation of the 1970s. Here, the Union was offered the 5% maximum pay increase and objected because they wanted 15% - but if they get 15% the government has to spend more, which will (a) upset the IMF (which Britain went to to get a loan to prop up the value of the £ to please financial capital - tying into that point - rather than devaluing or ignoring the trade deficit like future governments did.) and (b) in their understanding, encourage further inflation (since govt spending boosts demand.)
2. To apologise in part if it was necessary, given my replies tend to wander all over the place, since you noted being interested in awaiting the reply in the spoiler. In any case, I appreciate the note. (i.e. thanks)
3. To consider aloud, briefly, the class implications of an overall managed Keynesian full-employment economy, since you have private companies (that don't mind increasing wages anymore since they can raise prices), trade unions (which want wage increases, regularly or at least in line with productivity, but probably as big as they can get), and government (which wants to keep inflation in balance without increasing unemployment), which of course in even traditional 1960-era economic thinking means capping wage increases. While it seems perfectly nice from a management perspective, having the government adopting such an arbitration position sits quite uneasily when around the left. (Since it essentially means telling the proletariat what's good for itself and stopping an open class-war erupting - which it eventually did in 1979, with the wrong side winning.)
This raises a second interesting (if tangential) problem which cropped up in Britain during the 1970s, which is that workers are very defensive over their differentials - i.e. if inflation is 10% and a doctor gets 10% while a nurse (on low pay) is given 15%, the doctor tends to get very upset. (Or even if we were to cut out inflation and just say 5% for doctors, 10% for nurses - but since wage levels were already politicised, this made the problem much louder.) There's something a bit worrying about that.

Finally there's a point which I really need to look up because I think Hayek mentioned it, which is appallingly cynical but also true. In 1975, if the Government tells you your pay is keeping pace with inflation but not increasing you get very upset and go on strike to tell them to go to hell . In 2017, if the market tells you that for the 10th year in a row you're not getting a pay rise, meaning you've been on the same real terms income for a decade, you meekly do nothing. Partially this is due to the weakening of unions, of course, but more pernicious is that people can't really fight "the market" - because most people have stagnant wages, you can't exactly quit or anything for a better paying job, and it's not like "the market" can lose an upcoming election because you made it look bad. Despite the situation being much worse, It's not a political decision in the same sense as a government pay board. (Even if from an "outside" view, both are equally political decisions - this one just disempowers and distracts more effectively.)

That's all very tangential but possibly worth thinking about aloud since it does link to inflation and real-terms pay in a very roundabout way.

Of course it is. There is even the famous Pol Pot's quote about it:

> correct me if I'm wrong but you're describing class as though it were something to eradicate and abolish, it would be more expedient if you developed technology such that it made such class relations redundant
Are you trolling me?

I hope you are.

The best part of BitCoin and other shitty cryptocurrencies is that unlike stocks, foriegn currency speculation, or even fucking goldbugging, there's no solid commodity being moved or traded, nor is it used in any kind of levy, nor is it pegged to anything, nor does it have any other use.

Bitcoin could drop to literally 0 from any given market crash.

Read Jehu. He says we could instantiate the social conditions to establish communism by demanding drastic reductions of work hours.
If we asked to stop working a whole day of the week every year for half a decade, we could abolish wage slavery by ending up with a 0-hour long workweek.
Of course this could be only obtained with violent protests and blockades, but there would be no need for a 1917-style revolution, which is unrealistic nowadays anyway.

Communism is free time and nothing else (well, except the abolition of the commodity form, but commodities can't exist without wage slavery unless we all become capitalist self-entrepreuners)

I'm not drunk enough to deal with this.

Then he is a fucking moron. You can't establish Communism by demanding.

You are delusional. It's not unrealistic. It's inevitable. The problem is that Left is going to fuck it up, because it knows better.

Not in the sense we are talking about.

Please stop with the anti-Semitism.

So you do realize that inflationary economics was going on for roughly 40 years before these problems arose, but instead of the problems of current economics being due to, perhaps, the economic/policy differences between the 1930s-1970s and the 1980s-today, instead you explain the difference between the two from something constant between them?

Already major companies have/are positioning themselves to use the technology. Investments are pouring in, thus the market is going up up up up. You will see the media give it a lot more attention and then you will see normans flood into it driving it up even farther. Only morons went all in at it's peak and got burned. Everyone else is dealing with how to evade the capital gains tax and having a great Christmas.

Call me when there's something new. I still find it disgusting that people are pumping up a currency that isn't possibly economically sustainable and billing it as a store of value and somehow egalitarian.
But yeah, there's a good chance that bitcoin will go to the end of its potential as a bubble, which is when it becomes to burdensome to use.
Then it will be nice to see it crashing national and international economies I guess.

I don't think we should oppose cryptos. We are in an age of mass surveillance and bourgeois intelligence services have been scrutinizing the internet to monitor the activities of radicals, which doesn't only include islamists, but us as well, Marxists and anarchists. Pragmatically speaking, since cryptos are untraceable, using cryptos to prevent the bourgeois state to monitor our purchases might not be a bad idea.

I don't think we should oppose cryptos. We are in an age of mass surveillance and bourgeois intelligence services have been scrutinizing the internet to monitor the activities of radicals, which doesn't only include islamists, but us as well, Marxists and anarchists. Pragmatically speaking, since cryptos are untraceable, using cryptos to prevent the bourgeois state to monitor our purchases might not be a bad idea.


nice meme. The ONLY one that comes close to that is Monero and besides, I think all transactions histories are kept on the exchanges. Purchasing of goods histories are certainly kept by the companies themselves.

I have some interest in alternative systems for trade and accounting and stuff, I just absolutely loathe the very idea of proof-of-work crypto. All this sacrificed electricity. My body reacts to the math like to something that absolutely reeks, it repulses me on such a fundamental level. I actually think it's even kinda incompatible with ancap principles. Shouldn't people who hate state fiat rather prefer a currency backed by something useful, like a currency that is fundamentally linked to a network of secure storage spaces with actually useful things in them? But instead they jumped on the bitcoin train like flies on shit. Sad.

The bits of Jehu I have read are all over the place in terms of quality, so I wouldn't make a general recommendation for him, but the work-time reduction idea makes sense.

Lol, you can tell libertarians mums give them an allowance of constant amount


Guys vastly overestimate the attractiveness of their penises.

It's a speculative asset for wannabe petty bourg. It's not a currency really.

good luck

nothing new, move along

not surprised

It's a complete bubble. The only people who claim it isn't are the ones who think it's a currency. But that's insane - there's like a handful of obscure online stores that accept it and many hundreds of thousands more that don't.

Fucking idiot, you should support Bitcoin otherwise Government are going to create their own Centralised E-Currency, then there will be no end to this Capitalism and control.

nobody said anything about skin color you fag

I suggest we call it… the pound.

Japan is already planning possibly doing that so there goes your theory.

For whatever the analysis of a random gommie is worth…

Buttcoin is not just a currency, but history's first true virtual commodity, altho some would consider that an oxymoron. Regardless, it has all the traditional aspects of a commodity, other than physicality: production that requires labor, or rather work done by electricity; said production is also limited to few people, in this case owners of mining farms (what an amusing combination of words); it's transferable; it's fungible; it can be used by its owner and thus has use-value, whether as simple trading currency, reliable way to get dudedurgslmao, easy way to speculate since it's a big bubble and more; it can't be consumed but it still has a sink, even if a relatively small one, in the form of lost wallets (altho this will play a part in its demise); etc. etc.

And like many commodities before it, it's now going through a bubble, being bought and sold constantly and having its market price grossly inflated. Before telecommunication, bubbles could only happen within a specific geographical location, since any given commodity had to be available there (historical example: the Dutch tulip bulb bubble). Later, we had telecom, and commodities could be bought and sold from a world away, but still these commodities were material things. Altho they could be physically hoarded for the sakeof speculationand at some point were required to be transported, industrialized etc. if only because they had a shelf life (e.g. the 3rd world food shortages of 2011-2012 weren't caused by any crop failures but by sheer speculation). Now the commodity itself being traded from a world away is immaterial and rather easily traded compared to stock exchange niggotry, and thus very easy to be traded around, technical limitations notwithstanding (receiving buttcoin is what the miners receive for their hard work the work being done by the electicity they're pumping in, which is, approving buttcoin transfers from all over the world; a lack of miners or of transactions causes a mess, but that's for another topic).

Thus the scenario is set for a bubble bigger than either the tulip mania or the food shortage, because a) it has a novelty factor and constant press attention, b) it actually does fulfill a social need in the form of anonymous payment (even if its biggest use is buying drugs, it also allows persecuted groups to receive more funding, such as over a dozen US military bases in Syria and, well, ISIS), and most importantly, c) literally the entire world can easily join in. The latter means the bubble still has a lot more room for growth. Of course, an externality can undercut this process, such as a new cryptocurrency that's technically far superior to buttcoin.

tl;dr: buttcoin will eventually crash for good, but its market needs to be saturated first, which will take a while because any joe schmoe in the planet can join that market


Capital itself will become fully virtual. It will be uploaded into the computer reality even before we do. Damn it.

Learn to read the charts. It dipped because its been a pretty bad week for bitcoin (exchanges shutting down, exchanges getting hacked, Trumps Tax bill)

Learn to read charts, you say?

It is mathematically impossible for bitcoin to be a "bubble."

Its a fucking correction.

the global financial crisis was a fucking correction.

As a straight guy I don't understand how straight guys make this mistake. The stereotypical image of a pretty boy that women swoon over is not someone with their fly open and their cock peeking out, it's a guy with his shirt popped or removed, the camera zoomed in right up against his muscles. Just from popular culture osmosis people should really realize this.

A correction, hah. Sure thing, Space.

What's your opinion on the enormous amounts of energy bitcoin will require, and how it's completely unsustainable at this point?

Being this much of a tech analyst.

I refuse to believe that this post is serious.

Can't you see the parabola? Or did you drop out of GCSE Maths?

It's pretty bad but to be fair, Bitcoin is a 1st Gen Crypto currency. More energy efficient blockchains will come in the future and since its only selling point is the fact its the go to currency to trade with Altcoins. Once coins start decoupling from Bitcoin, it's value will begin to fall and better currencies will take it's place.

Nothing wrong with reading Charts fam :^)

That's not how technology works. Silicon valley was a mistake.

yes it does.

They complexity of the calculations for the mining will increase to avoid hyper inflation.

Technology is not powered by magic. At some point you will fight a loosing battle: what you gain in efficiency you will loose on something else.

This is the same bullcrap capitalist apologists like to throw around. RoP falling is not an issue if you grow faster than the decay! Physics? What are those?

Unless you're an accelerationist, you should absolutely oppose any cryptos that aren't made by the government, or otherwise capable of being controlled by the government.

If governments started to actually run fiscal policy through a commodity based money that they literally take at face value for the unit of account (as in, in the past nations would peg their currency to gold, but they'd say "1 denarius is X gold", and that value would be open to crying up or debasing if the king/government wanted to do so), their policy space would reduce. What happened to Greece would be more likely to happen to anyone, the private banks that floated the budget by loaning bitcoins would have actual leverage over the government's policies. If the government is holding huge debts, the banks could lower their credit rating and start demanding that they roll back public education because it costs too much, or other heinous shit. Right now they don't have that leverage, countries like the United States, Japan, Sweden, UK, they can always pay their debts because they issue the currency. There is no risk of default, so creditors have no such power over the state, besides the obvious one of simply paying off representatives or buying political parties. But clearly countries like Japan or the UK are more sovereign over their policy than developing countries that are leeched off of by IMF loans, or by countries like Greece that have to bend over because they can't get enough revenue in Euros to pay their debts.

This is only to say you should oppose cryptos replacing sovereign state currencies. Cryptos actually becoming a world currency would be handing over immense power to the people who have the majority of the cryptos. I don't see the problem with speculating on them as long as no large group of people becomes so blind that they start supporting the adoption of cryptos as a policy position.

There are cryptocurrencies that are not based on proof-of-work

Technology might, but not necessarily the production. Not without regulation. Look up Jevon's paradox.

Also, you are retard for not understanding how mining of crypto-currencies works. If expenses for mining drop, then production will increase - until expenses and profit will become equal again. I.e. it doesn't matter how efficient your tech is. Mining will always oscillate near "barely profitable" margin.

Yes, but that's not what he was talking about.

Explain to me exactly why centralized banking is bad. Aside from saying capitalism is bad, we agree. I'm just saying, why is centralized banking specifically bad, and how does bitcoin solve the problem?

And just as a seperate question, would you consider it bad to have the treasury act as the central bank? Or put another way, collapsing the functions of the central bank into the treasury. though it may be that the treasury ultimately behaves differently than the central bank (since the central bank funds the treasury in roundabout ways, the treasury could choose to simply fund itself directly through legislation rather than the fed manipulating money markets in order to create the conditions in which the treasury can always issue debt).

*adjusts bow tie autistically* The name of the guy was Jevons.
He said in
Perhaps you think that concepts that are not based on proof-of-work cannot be blockchain concepts. But I don't think that's how blockchain is defined: First sentence:
I believe an apology is in order.

That might be so.

No. It is "in the future" part that I was - and you should be - looking at.

Since the prerequisite was that we don't already have such currencies, I did not consider Proof-of-stake (or similar ideas) as the one he meant.

Apologies for misremembering Jevons.


are you legit retarded?
blockchain is not an internal combustion engine
to reduce energy consumption of any cryptocurrency network you must reduce computational difficulty of mining problems

you have three variables - computational difficulty of mining problems, computational power of mining pools, amount of cryptocurrency already mined
you can't just reduce computational difficulty without changing other two variables

There are blockchains that are not proof-of-work based so they don't need that much computational power


I thought this thread wqas dead. Is some retard defending bitcoin again?

That's correct. And I don't believe Jevons Paradox applies to fiat money or crypto currency.

PoS has its own problems
first, miners can bet on multiple competing chains, which undermines the whole consensus mechanism
also, it basically gives power over the network to the wealthy
have 51% of currency? the whole network is your bitch now
it is much harder to get a 51% of total network hashrate, plus hashrate distribution is dynamic, where as wealth concentration much less so, especially when the total supply is capped

and hybrid PoW/PoS proposed models are too complicated to say anything for certain
also it doesn't help that every "proof" as to why transaction costs will be lower begins with "in a competitive market equilibrium"

God fucking dammit

Do you know the 10 laws of tech analysis, because if you dont you're about to get shafted.

Im kinda happy I didn't have to arduously debate them why crypto-currencies are shit but I also wanted drugs from the deepweb
Oh well

Map the Trend,
Spot the Trend and go with it,
Find the high and low of the trend,
Know how to back track from the trend,
Draw the line,
Follow the adverage,
Learn the turns,
Know the warning signs,
Trend or not a Trend,
Know the confirming Stages.

Ment for

Holla Forums follows Plato's creed when it comes to being an expert. Intellectuals know that if they show off their powerlevels they will bring shame upon the community and become a burden upon it. phD economists can become god emperors overnight but they are just too humble and lazy.

Does silk road still use bitcoin? I bet mother Ayahuasca is a comrade.


I'm sure 4.0 is up, the beauty of onion sites is they never really die they just change the big dumb random link, yes there's feds on there but I'm sure there's reliable ways to know if the dealer is a fed.

quit your cockteasing
say it!

I'm drunk, not a fed

I'm a bit taken aback by all these people that are so quick to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme but then go on buying shit in USD and going to work, not realizing all that too is a ponzi scheme.

sit down and let me tell you how capitalism is banking and how anarchy systems fail.

pray tell how the real economy is a ponzi scheme.

I said it has nothing to do with *full* automation you dunce. Obviously cybernetics is partial automation of management.

It applies to regular mining.

Neither is a ponzi scheme.

Should be:

lol, you say that like the fat cats who have been doing this for decades havent already made off with their fat wads of money.

how would that work you memehead? if people are selling their bitcoins somebody is getting paid.

I wish somebody invented negative dogecoin, because you'd surely deserve a donation for your quality comments.

you can't really opt out of capitalism

so far no regretes

The USD isn't a ponzi scheme you dipshit.

Bitcoin is still worth far too much
We can't rest until it has been dismantled completly


socialism depends on centralization

Remember pinkos, if you every want to escape the rat race of wageslavery, the answer isnt communism, it's buying low and selling high. With the price of bitcoin declining, it's almost time to buy, but dont worry, it's speculated to reach 50k sometime in the next year. If you buy at the exact right time, you could almost triple your investment. And you friends here on leftypol need never know that what you put away for a rainy day, aka the day socialist mismanagement pisses away some of the most fertile land in Europe again and all the bread runs out.

Thats nice cuck


How cucked can you be?
I'm sorry I'm not a victim of low expectations and want to coast off some bullshit while actual problems plague society and the planet ultimately endangering me and damaging my self interest.