All i wanted to be was a demsoc but liberals made me a Stalinist

WTF all i wanted was to have some good minimum wage and some progresive economic policies, but all these liberals only wanted to talk about how austerity is good as long as we do it. Now im a fucking ☭TANKIE☭ becouse of these assholes who only Care about idpol and classcucked pseudo progresive politics.

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If you impose a minimum wage thats gonna be bad for the workers, company are going to hire LESS people and Will over work them more.

Companies can pay a minimum wage this argument is only used by people that want workers to be exploited and recieve less them what they actualy work for.

Read Marx. That’s not what a minimum wage is or does:

That only works If the labour being done is worth that amount.
15$ minimum wage for baristas and burgerflippers is idiotic.

so much for "basic economics"

Those people still work for hours doing service they do deserve a minimum wage.

if they are not worth that amount then either the prices of bars and fast food restaurants are too low or they are employing too many people.
Labour is the only source of value, my man, it's absurd to claim that people cannot be paid enough.

The price they get offered in the form of a wage is dependent by the availability of their skill and laboruers who compete for that job.

Not all labour is inherently equal.

Their are millions of people who can flip burgers but only few that can do brain surgery.

That would result in either the employer increasing the price making it more expensive to get that service that could cause social strain (if all the people in that sector increase their price)
or people going to a place where its cheaper

You are very simple-minded if you think fixing the value of wages is all about the availability of skills. You have to take into account purchasing power and inflation. A $15 minimum wage doesn't seem outrageous at all in NYC, LA or SF.

Wages haven't kept up with inflation since the 60s. I get it that business owners just want more profits, because that's the point of being a capitalist, but at some point, if most workers can't reinject their money in the economy beyond basic necessities, it's not healthy for businesses on a global level, since they will have a smaller pool of customers, and less customers => less profits.

Also, don't forget, we are communists here. See

The problem is that people want to turn jobs that arent made to raise a family and live a life and turn it into that. Burgerflipping was made for the youth who would naturally grow out of it now we have 40 years old sperging out cause their simple no skill needing job doesnt pay enough.


What, then, is the cost of production of labour-power? It is the cost required for the maintenance of the labourer as a labourer, and for his education and training as a labourer. Therefore, the shorter the time required for training up to a particular sort of work, the smaller is the cost of production of the worker, the lower is the price of his labour-power, his wages. In those branches of industry in which hardly any period of apprenticeship is necessary and the mere bodily existence of the worker is sufficient, the cost of his production is limited almost exclusively to the commodities necessary for keeping him in working condition. The price of his work will therefore be determined by the price of the necessary means of subsistence.

Quote is from Marx's Wage Labour and Capital

The problem is that wages haven't kept up with inflation since the 60s and you don't realize you are eating from the trashcan of ideology.
From the blogpost I quoted earlier :

I'm bothered by people who say "disillusionment with X made me a tank/Stalinist." It reminds me that contemporary left politics are marginalized and motivated largely by ressentiment, nihilism and a reaction against the status quo.


I'm not a tankíe or even a Leninist, but when you are nothing more than a slightly intelligent person who only know a couple of things about economics, and you are surrounded by neoliberal apologists who keep arguing in bad faith, you become resentful, nihilistic and more extreme ideologically.

I wish we could work only 20 hours per week, just like Keynes predicted we would at the end of the 20th century. But, no, if you say we should reduce work hours, neoliberals will tell you that you are falling for the "lump of labour fallacy", that infinite economic growth, creating full-time jobs for everyone in the process, is definitely possible in a finite world subject to climate change threatening the survival of the human species as a whole. And we are not even tackling the debate about the value of work here, about what we are producing, and if it is useful or not.

Such arguments already seemed ridiculous to me when I was 17. When I heard in high school that neoclassical economists believe an invisible hand would systematically produce the best outcomes for everyone in an totally unregulated market, I had a strong gut feeling that it was bullshit used to justify the increase of inequalities between the rich and the poor. It turns out that even Adam Smith, who invented the concept, thought this is bullshit.

There is a reason why people are becoming more extreme, why the alt-right became a thing, why Trump was elected. The status quo fucked up hard, and continue to fuck up hard. After a while, a promise to increase the minimum wage from a social democrat doesn't cut it anymore. You start to yearn for gulags, or the replacement of humanity by self-replicating AIs. You look around, and everything you see is upsetting, not as irenic as it seems from the first look, and the potential destruction of the current order doesn't seem so bad when you don't have much to lose, even if it may entail a high death count.

In short, you reap what you sow, and liberals seem to have forgotten that.

You forgot about the le automation boogeyman

What section does Marx talk about minimum wage?

the absolute state of leftypol, read post-keynesian theory
demand-side economics is also a thing that a leftist can support in contemporary times

if this were ever really true that age has flat out passed

Liberals have developed a practiced cluelessness that absorbs all criticism of their economic policies and spits it back in business school jargon. Ask them about child poverty in America and they'll tell you "actually children in the third world are doing better than ever" or some other dubious special pleading. They get swept up in partisan cults of personality more easily than any right winger. They act like the world popped into existence 14 months ago.
Any discussion of minimum wage that ignores the massive wage theft that goes on daily is pointless.

Does the liberal cry out in pain as he strikes you?

I feel pics related are just right for this thread.

Read The Ignorant Schoolmaster by Jacques Ranciere.

Any burger flipper can go for 5 years to med school, then 3-5 years of further medical training as a doctor in the hospital, focusing on neurology.

And after all that, which requires someone housing them and feeding them for 5 years at the med school, if they finish all that they can do the brain surgery.

I spent 5 years doing masters in physics, and now in phd in physics. With that training I would be able to develop and build a laser scalpel for the delicate surgery, and also develop and build optical systems so doctors could actually use that laser scalpel for cutting and cauterization.

Funny that I believe that hour of "work" I do now is not worth more than hour of burger-flipping.

So at best you are being intellectualy dishonest by never thinking about why there are millions of people that can flip burgers but only few capable of doing brain surgery. Yes making that observation is correct. But not ever stopping to think why that is, that is incredibly shitty move on your part.

Probably by asking that question, that would demolish your argument for trying to explain why some people deserve more money for their labour hours than other people. That is why you don't even try to ask that question.

No one deserves more, lbour is lbour doesnt matter who perfoms it.
If your 30+ and angry about your wage at the burgerflipping job that means that that induvual made some mistakes which they need to take responsibility for and if they wish for a higher wage their are more then enough ways for them from vocational training, cursus and apprentice ships for them to seek out.
If someone makes a mistake its up to them to fix it not society as a whole


The point is why do they have lower prices? The things are two: either they are ahead of the technological curve compared to their competitors or they are exploiting their workers more.
So excluding the first possibility (because that's not the case) it follows that the workers under these companies are being exploited more than the minimum for their survival, meaning they are doing something that should be illegal.
I highly doubt less people going to restaurants will cause social strains. Actually it will decrease healthcare costs in the long run considering restaurants (and in particular fast food chains) have to use low quality ingredients and unhealthy cooking processes to stay competitive.
Yeah that's the point of a union, not getting your ass raped by the capitalists and your fellow workers.

And what should it be?

Let's get real, the plan that begins with "Step #1: World Domination" is not going to get anyone on board regardless of logic and arguments - not unless the people in question tried everything else.

Moreover, disillusionment implies that there is something people want and can't get otherwise. I.e. actual motivation to do things for real (not larp like college students). That is worth quite a lot by itself, since there is motivation to get the actual (practically applicable) truth, not argue semantics (like LeftCom) or get cheap popularity (SocDem).

Good shit

I'm sorry but what's the point of a job if you cannot sustain yourself on it?
Dude, don't be autistic now. The job market is a free market based on competition, which surprisingly have winners and loosers, like every other competition. It's hardly "his fault" if the system is designed to have someone end up in their position.
With what time exactly? You are advocating for keeping their job on a non livable wage, which means they need to get at least two jobs just to survive. When would they be able to invest time in their education? Not to mention the funds.

Point of a job is to get financial compensation

As i said vocational training which many comapanis also provide, if not you can seek them out they do not cost a lot and dont take much time to complete, if you dont have much money you can save money and do it later no one says change is immediate.

How old are you? None of what you said is how the working world works.

Stay on topic.
Only ask my age if we're about to have sex.

Burger demsocs throw their demsoc comrades in other corners of the world under the bus at any opportunity.

See: Venezuela, El Salvador, Lebanon

Yes to live, not for the sake of it. I don't know about you, my friend but here if you don't work you're on the streets in a year max, once all social programs have stopped supplying you.
This is not a practical solution to the problem. Yes for some miracle I might be able to pull it off, but someone else will end up in that same situation again. Do I want to rely on this slim chance? Would you?

At the end of the day this has nothing to do with fair compensation or "what I deserve". It's in the interest of the working class to give every wage labourer a decent wage, otherwise their own will be pulled down as well. It's as simple as that.

It shouldn't be a corporations or goverments problem if you make enough to live thats up to you.

you're fucking shit, what the fuck's wrong with you?

Ok, let's say everyone who flip burgers now "pull up their bootstraps", go into vocational training and learn to become a codemonkey, program in Java or doing webdev, because you can get easy money in that field. What will happen ?
There will be a large pool of people knowing how to program and setting up servers and shit. Consequently, the value of their labour will fall and become as valuable as flipping burgers. It's a vicious cycle.

At the end of the day, we need people to produce food, pick up the garbage and doing tasks that don't require much expertise. Setting up an Apache server doesn't make wheat grow.
As I told you before, the main problem is that wages haven't kept up with inflation. You don't want to live in a society where everyone is a surgeon or working at Google, unless you are suicidal.

Thats a jewish/goverment caused problem, you cant scrap those to the government.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

Is this the power of Basic Economics™ ?

I meant bussiness.
Look i'm for free higher education and for people to keep improving themselves but forcing bussiness to pay extra for simple over crowded work is bound to bring negative side effects, that at the end will make those workers worse off then before.

Wow its almost as if the entire system is the problem.


I'm from Europe, had access to cheap higher education, and while I think it is great from a humanist perspective, it doesn't resolve the problem.
Employers are asking for a bachelor's degree to become a cashier now, because their pool of potential employees (aka the reserve army of labour in Marxist terms) is huge.
Young people in the West are "overeducated" and "underemployed", and it shouldn't be a problem, but here we are, and raising tuition fees is a retarded answer if you really believe in Enlightenment values.

I never said it was the perfect answer. Actually, the problem of raising the minimum wage is that inflation will continue its course and we will be back to square one after a short-lived increase of purchasing power.
Raising minimum wage and lowering work hours is the answer from my communist point of view.

Oh, and by the way, there is no evidence that lowering the minimum wage creates more jobs and resolves the problem of inflation.
Not to mention, most workers will have a hard time swallowing that pill.

literally this, I come from Poland and you in some places you can't get a fucking callcenter job if you don't have master's, I'm not kidding

guess what, it's $4 an hour

get in the tank comrade, there is no time to explain

good choice



To be honest, Stalinism is the only truly muscular form of socialism. The only alternative is basically becoming a cuck and letting the neoliberals walk all over you with "muh gulags" and "muh purges". Stalinists can just hit them with truth bombs like all the historical evidence that there was a Trotskyist/fascist/anti-communist opposition movement in the USSR who wanted to overthrow communism.

We need to stop caring how porky's "human rights".

oh wow you special snowflake

that makes social democracy really appealing

yes. LIEberals are all kikes. my qualitative phd in infographics has led me to this conclusion.

More seriously though, liberals/conservatives are all progressives and whigs. If you are having trouble convincing them of the basic premises of communism, then you you're probably a terrible rhetorician.

Yes but taxes are lowered. So the cost of goods is substantially lower therefore increasing demand thus spuring growth. So goes the classic neocohen argument.

You are a retard. That burger flipper is still fulfilling a role in society and deserves a stable living on those grounds alone the business owners are still stealing profits made off his and the other employees’ labor.

Even if you’re talking in terms of wage negotiation that’s still bullshit since that is inherently the result of capital inequalities and other power differences between the capital class and the labor class.

It only brings negative side effects if the businesses are private porky owned. Of course minimum wage law is a band-aid on stab wound.

why do you base your politics around emotions and resentment for another group of people


top kek

People to this day think the mensheviks went quietly into the night and dindu nuffin

I actually identified as a demsoc until liberals appropriated the term.

There are liberals LARPing as ☭TANKIE☭s too. Remember,

Even the 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧IMF🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 starts to reckon that this kind of logic is bullshit.
They admitted there was no evidence supporting trickle-down economics and that Corbyn's tax plan would cause a huge recession. They seem to think less inequality would be better for the world economy nowadays, maybe thanks to Piketty.

He asked because your deficit of empathy could be excused if you were twelve.

because he's a shit person, probably around 16 ,and turn back to being a liberal when he turns 30.

Lowering taxes make the problem worse. Taxes are generally deflationary, decreasing taxes and increasing public debt actually increases inflation.

Well then we force hiring quotas and 6 hour work day
Well then we stop them at borders with full force of the state
Well then we replace the porky with /ourguys/. After we get in power porky just give us one fucking excuse, just tries talking back and it's gone. Gone.

So what? Don't be an idealist.

dude just shut up lol. They've raised the wage to a living wage in multiple cities and states in the US and also internationally and its had zero of these effects. I don't 100% understand why but i know that part of it has to do with the fact that poor people and middle class people spend 100% and 98% of their disposable income respectively as opposed to upper class people with more money who tend to spend FAR less of it - so from my understanding the money goes right back into the economy to no detriment of business owners when its introduced properly. In NY they saw a net increase of 0.01% or something in the price of goods after raising to a living wage.

I need to go and research this more obviously but go look at the evidence and youll see that contrary to "common sense" these problems people push about raising wages is bullshit. We have it in several provinces in Canada and we have literally zero problems.

No smoking anime pls