Is there any point in fighting for socialism with the inevitability of climate catastrophe looming over us...

Is there any point in fighting for socialism with the inevitability of climate catastrophe looming over us? Even if we somehow manage to abolish capitalism and emancipate humanity, it's very unlikely that climate change can still be handled and when society inevitably collapses, the libertarians will blame it on socialism.

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Well if a meteor hits Earth it won't matter what system we have but you shouldn't live as if it's going to happen

Tenets of Stalinism:

Literally every single one of these points is going to be needed to deal with global warming this century. We'll need huge infrastructure spending to put us on clean energy, sustainable transport, insulated homes, and so on. Not to mention massive levees and water management projects to prevent important cities from getting swamped. We'll need a massive state-managed relocation program to get people out of danger areas and put up sea barriers, as well as to deal with millions of refugees. All of the oil company CEOs, all the conservative pundits, the anti-nuclear hippies, and so on will have to disappear. Food and water rationing will be required to prevent mass starvation, and new farmlands will have to be perpetually seized as the arable land region changes. We'll have to invade countries that refuse to move to sustainable energy and green living.

When I look at the reality of climate change… the droughts and floods, the famine and war it will cause… The only logical solution I can see is a ruthless, efficient ecological proletarian state. I am for Eco-Stalinism.

But the climate catastrophe is unavoidable and man-made while a meteor is unlikely.

yeah, but it's also survivable and reversible under socialism. see:

Meteor strikes are also unavoidable. Since when is something being man made an issue for materialists? Matetial conditions caused humans to cause climate change, we didn't exert any sort of free will to cause climate change it just sort of happemed. Playing the blame game isn't useful.


How about no? Democracy can still do its thing. If the majority of humans prefer their own extinction to surviving climate change I'm not going to stop them. I'd much rather that than have some minority group kill off the vast majority of people in the name of "the greater good".

Honestly this gives Leftists twice as much reason to fight for Socialism. Capitalism isn't built to handle a situation like Climate Change, and the consequences of a post-Climate Change Capitalism are horrifying, namely a steep decline into Fascism as we face an enormous refugee crisis and resource scarcity, and these are all things Leftists need to organize around, these are contradictions that Global Capitalism cannot handle, and there's never been a time in human history when we've needed to abolish private property, needed an intentional, planned economy, and needed the democratic, rather then undemocratic, distribution of resources and means of subsistence.

…more then we need to now.
That's how I was going to finish that sentence. Anyway, Climate Change is a huge opportunity for the Left, for the past decade Leftists have taken a back seat to Liberal environmentalists, and refused to name Capitalism as the driving force behind Climate Change, mostly because Liberals intentionally boxed us out, told us we were being "divisive", told us we were being "too political", they foolishly thought they could appeal to the Center and the Right with "Green technology", and "market based solutions". I think we've reached a point where it's obvious to anyone who isn't completely illiterate, or a willfully ignorant ideologue, that Capitalism is both the cause of Climate Change, and diametrically opposed to ecological harmony by default.

Environmental Accelerationism when

Easy to imagine governmental legitimacy collapsing because of climate disaster.

global warming will be solved by a mass global depopulation via ethno viruses, the goal is to reduce population back to 250 million

the Jews are building bunkers underneath tel Aviv for this purpose

whatever you do don't give the jews a sample of your dna under an circumstances

low effort, 4.5/10 user you need to practice more.
Also need to talk with your parent next weeks.

Space imperialism, simple.

Comr8, whether anything has a point or not depends entirely on the time frame into the future you consider. The farther into the future you consider, more and more things lose their point.

The ruling class in the DOTP is the proletariat.

Honestly I don't think so.
I think we have maybe another 40-50 years of civilization left, after that all bets are off, but we're VERY unlikely to see any sort of global connection/cooperation like we have in the past few decades.
If no nukes start flying, that is, then the planet will be cleansed of the shit stain that was our race for good.

This, but unironically.

Socialism is like trying to place a band-aid onto somebody who has been shot several times.
If you are smart, and realize there is still a window of time, I suggest any young man to buy cheap land, and begin raising a traditional European family. Or you can remain in the population centers, embrace sickness, and pass away when the collapse comes.

What window of time? You do realise that greenhouse effects on Earth have already become self sustaining and it's only a matter of time before this fucking place turns into Venus 2.0?

what if I'm not a eurocuck

Porky trying to demotivate us detected.

The climate catastrophe is trivially easy to solve under socialism. In fact I personally believe that it is a requirement. Climate change will stress the capitalist system and push it to its breaking point, thereby giving us an opportunity to sweep in and take control.

Google Bookchin.


The economy will collapse because of market forces before that, in the next two years.

Of course it will. We haven't had a recession in over 7 years. The point is that climate change will slowly make (humane) capitalism less effective. It will force the contradictions to the forefront of consciousness while also neutering governments' ability to cope with the massive losses it will force onto civilian populations in order to maintain profitability.

The west will go fascist and will be subsequently obliterated by the so-called third or "developing" world. After this conflict socialism will spring up among the ashes of the old western powers.

I'm saying this is more than just a major market crash like the Great Depression, but rather this will be capitalism's death blow.

Positive feedback loops such as global ice melting faster than jizz on your cum rags are already in place and all we're doing is pissing away enough energy to black out the third world to mine meme currencies. Is this and not enough to make you realise we're fucked?

Why should the destruction of the west make me feel bad?

The whole goddamn planet will go with it, you retard.

Capitalism is extremely good at adapting to the crises it brings about while crushing any opposition. It ain't over til it's over.

What tools will they use this time, though. Isn't their ability to add debt or print money severely diminished by the last crash, when the debt ballooned, and so did the Fed balance sheet?

Agreed. I've said before that the future will by necessity include eco-fascism (I like your term eco-Stalinism more tbh, but it's effectively the same thing) because nothing short of a centrally directed ruler-ship model like this will be able to keep a city's worth of people alive in the case of significant supply chain breakdown, disrupted agriculture, regional conflicts and the general resource scarcity that comes from all of that.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the people in this thread have never lived through a serious regional catastrophe like a flood or a truly massive earthquake or tsunami/hurricane. Something that fucks up everything for weeks at least. Something that utterly destroys people's homes, neighborhoods, businesses, cars, the roads themselves, etc. When it's day ten and there's still no power and you can't go anywhere and the only food coming in to the town is coming with the Red Cross, when you're in a situation like that you see the need for a central authority who is able to respond effectively to disasters - and when you realize the precarious position industrial society is in and how quickly it can fall apart, this just seems like the natural and necessary response.

I guess we'll see. Pic related - this is a top-down picture of a neighborhood in India. Notice the distinct lack of farmland? I wonder how many pounds of food are eater per day by the people under this camera's lens. This might as well be any other major city in this regard, though it is more densely populated than most. All the same, the 'free market' will not be able or willing to feed these people in a time of crisis. What do you think they will turn to when that happens?

cannibalism and roof gardens

Every adaptation that it has made over the past 30 years has only weakened its ability to adapt without sacrificing long-term political stability. Decades of neoliberalism have made westerners less supportive of capitalism than ever. This is the dialectic. It will lead us to socialism as long as the left is prepared to organize and agitate.

I'm going to lead a press gang rounding up neets for duty on ocean de-plastification flotillas.

Great post, comrade!

Holla Forumshack detected

Bait harder nigger.

How wouldn't the destruction of the West be good for the environment?

Because environmentalism is a western invention

I don't know, all I'm saying is porky has pulled his ass out of the fire before in unpredictable ways. If you told a Marxist in 1910 that soon all the wealthiest countries on earth would sacrifice whole generations of men in the most insane war ever, leading to millions of deaths and regimes collapsing, I think said Marxist would be sure capitalism's days are numbered.


Native people have been intuitively living in harmony with nature for thousands of years! "Environmentalism" is a band-aid to cover up the gaping wound that the West has inflicted upon the Earth!


I mean, countries like India and China pollute almost as much, but I see your point, but it still doesn't hold water because as it stands it's not just the West that will go, the entire planet will be rendered unhinabitable.

They only pollute so much because of Imperialist pressures to follow the West's footsteps towards industrial capitalism. They've been infected by the West with this deadly meme of Capitalism.

War is what made that possible. Nukes make traditional total war so unlikely that it is not worth seriously considering. Without war nothing can restart profitability without directly harming the working class's economic standing in some way.

Do you have a timeframe for collapse in mind?

Tinpot dictators in africa and asia, oil addicted petrol states, everyone following the BRIC economic model, aren't exactly going to return to your exoticist primitivist fantasy of "living in harmony with nature"

The west collapsing under the current paradigm just means the third world is going to move to fill in the gap. The west being the source of the cancer, but it's metastasized.

Ok, I won't debate that. Still, what's the point of this argument? Who cares about playing the blame game when humanity's collective head is on the chopping block, fucking hell you're petty.

The solution is a global general strike.

Good luck with that.

Thanks, we will need it, comrade!

DPRK and Cuba are two of the only ecological societies on earth, and they provide free healthcare, housing, full employment, and full food independence. Bookchin is a shitty Zionist hack.

If you're unfamiliar with Dr. Meadows, he's one of the primary contributors to the 1972 book Limits to Growth (which has been republished and updated I believe every decade since its original publishing date).

I quote him specifically because he's one of the most credible people working on this topic and he's been working on it for over 40 years. He maintains a reputable standing with MIT and other universities, which is something that a lot of professors who do delve into the topic of collapse are unable to say (like Guy McPherson, who was basically booted out of the University of Arizona for not curtailing his lectures on the subject). I encourage anyone to check out some of their talks on youtube. They differ somewhat on timeframe but the overall message is the same. (We're fucked).

They're not the same thing you fucking cretin, Stalinism and fascism are diametrically opposed. One of the number one tasks of the eco-Stalinists will be helping climate refugees relocate to more livable regions.


I have no doubt that these places are more economically sustainable than almost anywhere else.


Way to move the goal posts! Originally you said that Stalinism and fascism were diametrically opposed!

kys shitposter

What sort of ☭TANKIE☭ nonsense is this.

DPRK is enormously energy dependent on China and relies almost entirely on fossil fuels for its energy needs. And green energy isn't even close to a majority of cuba's power production.

To be honest I could easily imagine that happening.

You could call it eco-friendliness, or 'The New Dawn Movement', or People for a Better Planet, or Leggo' my Ecos for all I care - the point is that there will be a top-down leadership structure which decides who gets what and who goes where based on the limited availability of resources with the goal of resilience and to the greatest extent possible sustainability for the population that they are looking out for.

Truthfully though, there won't be much time for semantics when the situation gets this dire. Besides, the average schlub on the street probably couldn't tell you even one significant difference between Stalinism or fascism. Either one would 'feel' the same to, what, 80% of people if we're being generous? Whatever it is ultimately called won't matter. What will matter is how it keeps those people alive (fed, clothed, sheltered) and how it protects them from threats outside of the 'state's' (for lack of a better word) sphere of direct influence.

In either case, it's probably going to look a lot like feudalism, now with AR15s.

Porky detected.

You do realize that while climate change is going to suck, it's not going to wipe out humanity, right? industrialized nations will still be industrialized and things will go as normal, just at higher costs.

It's a regular Liberal drivel. They want excuses to wait, to postpone revolution for some bullshit reason.

Implying liberals ever want revolution.

Actually DPRK gets like 60% of its energy from dams, and the rest from its own coal stations. The thing is they are highly energy-efficient due to city layouts and lack of gasoline/oil. DPRK is proof you can have a decent life and most modern luxuries even under the harshest ecological limits, as long as you have a proletarian state.

Doesn't matter, Cuba is still one of the only sustainable societies on earth. They're just more efficient.

that's the rallying cry of fascism, shut the fuck up you Asserite snake.


Nice post, comrade!

They have muh smartphones, they have free housing, electricity, education, healthcare. They've got full employment. Better off than a lot of Burgerclaps.

Is it even possible to get reliable information about such things out of that country?

Yes, go read the DPRK thread

Is that where the scientists researching the conditions in North Korea post their findings?


I'm betting the house and going for broke on climate engineering. Whatever it takes to find the silver bullet to buy us as much time as possible. Full technocrat


What anime?

Little Witch Academia. That character actually does start yelling about bourgeois oppressors in one episode, it's not a baseless edit.

I-is that actually you, Varg??

There's no time for this. Just live wherever you are able to, and spread leftist memes. Don't have kids, that's a waste of time and resources at this point, and will just distract you from good work.

Posadism. Nuke ourselves just to be sure.

It is, she should have an anarcho-syndicatist flag in the background, not the "proletariat dictatorship means one man dictatorship in the factory" flag.

Socialism might stop it or at least slow it down .

There is a quote from Bertolt Brecht that I think is prescient here.

Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral

First comes a full stomach, then comes ethics.

To expand that-
Starving people don't care who feeds them.
Sick people don't care who cures them.
Homeless people don't care who shelters them.

That can be a rallying point for communists, fascists, or apolitical warlords. That's why I'm saying it won't matter what you call whatever your ideological group in a time of desperation. Most humans don't really care what political system they live under as long as their basic needs are met. That's arguably why we don't already have global communism. Desperate people care only as far as it takes to make them not as desperate.

The best thing you could do is organize now. If you already have a support group or some kind of formative structure/location/resources sequestered away you may indeed be able to propagate a movement to your taste in a dire situation such as the one we are hypothesizing about, but that being said, I doubt either of us has experienced firsthand the kind of desperation that this century will see. Just be wary of that fact, user. Whoever can maintain power and feed the people will be the one to call the shots and that humanity-at-large does not care what the ideology of their rulers is so long as they have relative stability in life. That can result in any kind of political ideology coming to power.

Also - holy fuck does Brecht look like the 1920 Jon Oliver with those glasses and that smug ass face.