RE: immigration and cheap labor and the class cucks "concerned" about both

Actual leftists don't give a shit about immigration for numerous reasons. In no particular order:
1. Labor, like capital, is a global institution, and there is nothing gained from "supporting labor at home" at the expense of labor "abroad."
2. "Foreign" labor and "domestic" labor is a false dichotomy, because the wages of the one depend directly on the exploitation of the other.
3. If Leftists actually were in a position where they could control immigration, they'd be in a position to dismantle their national bourgeoisie.
4. "National" borders presuppose a system of private property and are illegitimate from the get-go. No one has the right to arrest or remove anyone that wishes to peaceably travel or settle.
5. "Immigration" itself is a bourgeois concept arising out of 19th century nationalist sentiments and is inherently reactionary.

No, borders are not natural and they haven't "always existed" and the historical trend is that no one gives a shit about "borders" except for wealthy aristocrats marking off where their property ends and the property of some other aristocrat begins. If you're not an aristocrat, you're property, and arguing for borders is arguing to be someone's property.
Walls and fences are artificial physical things erected to enforce the private property rights of those behind them and control the flow of people within them and supporting that is supporting giving someone else the power to decide where you can and can't go and when, which is exactly what we see now where you have to have a passport and governmental permission to leave or enter an arbitrary geographical location. Borders are a spook and you're a massively spooked class cuck for wanting them.
No, little brainlet, not enforcing the bourgeois concept of borders isn't the same as "lol do whatever you want." Bourgeois borders under the current capitalist framework don't exist to keep people out, but to keep people in. There's nothing stopping a prole from some bombed out shithole from getting into your country and stealing your job, border or no border, if they've got the money, and someone is always going to be willing to give them the money, whether its capitalists wanting to undercut so-called domestic labor or some desperate refugee willing to take out a bunch of loans from the Triads to get smuggled in.

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But you? You're out of a job and have no money, and ostensibly you're where everyone wants to go already, so what the fuck are you going to do now, idiot? You can't afford to leave, and even if you could there's nowhere you could go. Gg, no re.

So if you don't want to die as a prisoner on the streets of your own countries the only option is to unite with the global proletariat and develop systems to accommodate those that want to move and ameliorate the conditions that made them do so to begin with in the places still full of people that don't want to, won't, or can't move. It's much easier to just not bomb prosperous and stable countries like Libya into the stone age than to let the capitalists blow them up and then have to build all new accommodations for them.

For those that desire or must emigrate from their native countries for whatever reason, instead of wasting resources fighting to keep these people out it would be better for everyone involved to do as Zizek says and develop systems to process them, provide them with the resources they need, and then allocate them where there are resources and space enough to settle them rather than just let them wander about on their own. Someplace like the US would be especially suited for this sort of thing, because there are already major immigrant enclaves or their descendants in major metropolitan areas that have the social structures, both governmental and civilian, that can serve them. It's better for everyone involved if Somali immigrants are directed to city centers that have pre-established Somali populations that can provide either the social services themselves or the interlocution necessary for these fresh immigrants to find what they need.

Failing to do these things will only increase the hardships for everyone involved, both migrant and settled, foreign and native. Say for example that in the US Trump or someone like him did manage to "build the wall" that kept the evil brown hordes at bay. This doesn't solve the problem or do anything to ameliorate it. Instead, it further destabilizes already unstable countries such as Mexico that don't have the resources to help these people. Without the ability to provide for their own people plus all those fleeing north, their only recourse will be authoritarian measures that create more refugees, further increasing the problem.

Yes, your problem, idiot, because that's going to mean more of your dwindling resources are going to be necessary to enforce the Porky's border which you keep futilely clinging to. The process of accumulation only continues within the border and will only continue to do so regardless of whether immigration is 0% or 100%. What happens instead are that the increasingly minuscule population that owns everything retreat behind borders of their own. Since you have no fucking money and subsequently nothing they fucking want, then they're even less likely to pay for the border wall protecting you. Why would they give a single shit? If you were worth protecting you'd have invested your money better/worked harder/been born to the right family. It's a lot easier and cheaper to wall off and protect the Hamptons than it is to do the same for the whole US-Mexico border.

It's for reasons like these that things like "the border" are fucking meaningless to the proletariat. If you're on the "right" side of the wall, you're a prisoner, and if you're on the "wrong" side of the wall, you're trying to get past them yourself, and all the while the bourgeois don't give a shit because not only are they the ones holding the keys to the castle, but they've got the fucking resources to flee to wherever they don't have to be bothered with your smelly corpses piling up on their doorstep, and the guy they pay to bulldoze you all into an unmarked grave is just going to think

The only answer is and always has been international solidarity and the overthrow of the system of global capital.


I've been swayed. Definitely care less about this now.

Yeah this never happens fuck wad.

*sigh* You’re going to have a hard time convincing the social liberals here of anything.

Up here in Canada there are entire industries propped up by seasonal labourers or contract workers from foreign countries

Anyway we keep having this fucking thread, instant worldwide socialist revolution isn't going to happen and most people here aren't fans of porky using immigration to get his disposable slaves and undercut wages. It's a non-starter for most people here on Holla Forums and probably most people out on the street looking for jobs or worried about keeping theirs

This is an issue we need to put to bed. If we don't come up with a workable humanist solution to immigration we'll be subjected to the fascist solution proposed by the le pens and bannons of the world intent on sending us into a world war with islamic countries


from which comic is the second image?

Welcome to 1946-presentday

nations under socialism are not the same as nations under capitalism

yes, but you understand that people immigrating out of countries are not going to help the people still caught in the shit countries? The ones who can leave are the rich people who can afford it or have the credit to take loans. This leads to brain drain and people who can actually help rebuild the countries to leave. Naturally, this is exactly what Porky wants since a steady stream of immigrants is good for him, but not for the working class.

Uncontrolled immigration and immigration for economic reasons will inevitabely lead to the countries that are in the shitter to stay in the shitter. If you want to help alleviate the poverty in these countriea you have to actually help the countries, not import the entire third world into Europe.

capitalists use immigration and foreign labor as a means of keeping wages low and working people disorganized. choke on a dick, OP.

Those aren't even similar. Those are very, very unskilled jobs that do not require any permanency, unlike almost all other jobs.
INB4 no one is employed except for seasonal laborers and entire continents go dormant for months at a time.


Only jews don't like borders and nations (except for Israel of course). Be gone jew.

You're such a stupid fuckwit and I'm embarrassed for you that you would make such an idiotic post.

Do you know why this happened? Because they built a massive new superfactory in Hyderabad, India, retard. Porky doesn't need you, they don't need your stupid country, and they don't need to bring workers to it because they can always build someplace cheaper. Which is why

The only answer is and always has been international solidarity and the overthrow of the system of global capital.

Sweet christ you bordercuck brainlets just can't get a fucking clue. It doesn't have to be instantaneous you dumb fucking retard, but it does have to happen, because the consequences of not building the international network of solidarity and support necessary to do so means we all get eaten up piecemeal by our own national Porky controlled governments.

But no yeah you're right we should just squabble over a vanishingly scarce slice of pie because hurr does bad bad browns.

It isn't just "hey let them in and then that's it" you dumb fucking asshole. International solidarity means moving past the obsolete concept of national borders. You bring the people that leave to the places that can support them while fixing the places that they left you incompetent dipshit. Iraq is a radioactive shithole thanks to decades of American interference. You're not doing them any favors by ringing the country with guards and saying "tough shit, fix your own fucking country", you petty dipshit.

All you'd accomplish by doing so is increasing the difficulties that this country with already limited resources has to deal with. Instead of removing what portion of the population you can from the most severely effected areas you're not just condemning millions to radioactive exposure and all the subsequent ills, but retarding the overall process that would make removing them unnecessary in the first place. It's stupid. It's inefficient. It's unjustifiably malicious.

But yeah no sorry kids you've got to just suck it up and deal with leukemia because this fucking asshole wants to support porky and keep his precious job.

Capitalists use wages to keep wages low, you brain dead simpleton. It doesn't matter if they import 10 immigrants or 10 million because you're already in direct competition with every other person in your stupid country. Jesus christ use your brain for a single fucking second.

>border supporter calling others liberals
Kill yourself, class cuck.

the reason we have this thread constantly is that there's a bunch of people here that caught wind of this and use it to promote their dumbass totally-not-nationalism-guys-i'm-just concerned-bout-them-workers. So naturally people like op just want them to fuck off.

anti immigration measures are the proverbial band aid on the cancer patient. these people are willing to cross deserts on foot and sail on tiny boats across the mediterranean sea in the winter but retards here believe that if you pass a bill or build some wall they're magically going to stop coming. it's no different from people believing reforms can solve the contradictions of capitalism.

furthermore, it's not like keeping the immigrants out actually translates into better conditions for national workers. italy signed a deal with lybia to have literal lagers in there for people trying to emigrate and we're still knee deep in shit, almost 30% youth unemployment and workplaces swarming with immigrants. I was in a warehouse for a "course" (read: unpaid labor with a vague suggestion that they might call you to work later on) last week and 90% of workers there were arabs, with the rest being romanians, albanians and then the odd italian here and there. it's like half of the immigrants in my city were working there, and they weren't fresh off the boat either.

these people work in precarious conditions just like us but the difference is that they still have the guts to fight back. there was a strike last year where one of them died because the manager told a truck driver to run over the picket line. Most of the people there were arabs.

Meanwhile we're here crying that people like to listen to pied pipers because it's easier to have a scapegoat than to stop a minute and think about who's really to blame if your son can't find a job. The problem is already here and you can't make it go away, no matter how hard you hate immigration. It's time to stop bitching and deal with it.

yes, because thats totally going to happen right guys? The West is going to build the countries up to be strong and independent :DD
no, it means supporting socialism worldwide and the struggles of workera around the world, and you can believe in this without wanting to import cheap labour for Porky.
neither am i doing the country of Iraq any favours by taking away all of it working age population, who can do something to ameliorate the situation, and plopping them in Europe. Or do you the daddy America is going to do it for you?
Europe cannot support the amount of migrants it is currently recieving, and no amount of wishing on your end can change this.
how is removing workers from a country going to help it grow?
africa and the middle east are the most resource rich areas on earth?
I dont think you actually read my entire post did you? The best way for the poor kids in these regions to get better is to build the countries up, and to do that you cant remove everyone who's capable to do this from the country.
if immigration is what Porky wants, how is me being anti-cheap labour importation supporting the bourgeoisie in any way?
you need to work on keeping your feelings out of the argument, thanks

It always amuses me the way these "no borders" fools pull out the example of a single company relocating its facility to engage in arbitrage over the differing level of wages across the global and presents it as reflective of the entire economy. No shit that the global location of a chemical factory that can be staffed by trained chimps is largely unimportant. Demonstrate that this model applies to tertiary sector industries or even of manufacturing.
Furthermore, if your vision of a communist revolution demands a large swathe of your supporters volunteer for hunger, ill-health and exposure you might just have sabotaged your own chances of success.

The elimination of border controls in the EU has massively enabled the sex trafficking of women.

By Marx's spectral beard, do you have two braincells to rub together? Use your brain for once you incredible idiot. Without overthrowing the bourgeoisie the immigration question doesn't matter because a) you don't control immigration, and b) you're going to increasingly be either trying to survive or fending off those that are, within "your own" fucking borders.

I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your braindead post.

Engels's ghost, spare us the dribbling bullshit of these imbeciles. Every industry in the US has experienced this, and what do you think happens to every other industry as this happens, you fucking retard? Can you seriously not count? Do I need to point out to your stupid ass that PG cut
10,000 JOBS
while their refurbished factories will "create" maybe a thousand? Why would P&G maintain any of their American factories when there aren't any Americans left to buy them? Have you been in a coma the past 20 years as domestic manufacturers and employers across all sectors have relentlessly cut jobs you dumb fucking asshole?

GREAT NEWS, DIPSHIT. Capitalism doesn't need volunteers to subject millions to hunger, ill-health, and exposure to dangerous living conditions. It does that already, you brainless cretin!

And that's just the most recent incident.
>Both health and company officials have stated the chemical consumption is not known to be fatal, even if consumed in its purest form. The chemical leaked was highly diluted due to the large amount of water involved; however, due to the potential health effects, authorities advised over 300,000 residents in surrounding communities to avoid utilizing the water for cooking, drinking, or bathing.

And who paid to import clean water to these people? The capitalists responsible?
Of course not, class cuck! The people did! Those responsible faced no fucking penalties at all because they run the fucking government. At least that time they bothered to help the people out, unlike in fucking Flint who've basically been told "deal with it."
And it's not unlikely that the water of every major city east of the Mississippi river is contaminated.

Read a book, you massive fucking idiot. Capitalists would rather pay to kill you than pay to keep you alive and without working to avert economic and ecological disaster now for you it's increasingly likely to be the former than the latter.

Thank gott, someone with actually firing synapses.

Haha dude just liberalize porky’s labor supply! It’s totally not liberal lmao xD why do billionaires support it then? It’s a mystery!

it's already liberalized

There are no bread bakeries or dairies in the US? There are no shops in the US? There are no logistics companies or warehouses in the US?

then why are you getting so worked up about and created a containment thread to sperg out inside of?
that means i cant have an opinion about it?
care to elaborate?

I dont think youre actually understanding my position here. i dont have a problem with immigration into a country, and dont see it as a negative. but your position is that immigration is good for socialism while mine is that its neutral. we both agree that there are bigger problems right? i just believe that mass immigration of cheap labour isnt aiding the problem. you havent actually answered that clearly without reeing at me, so im gonna keep asking. overall if we want to get somewhere you need to not get worked up online. we're all friends here

then whats the point of debating if you cant arhue against your own comrades?

here let me put it like this; youre not going to gain support from workers within a country by appealing to workers from outside a country.

Come back when you've got an argument, idiot. Better yet, just read the fucking thread.

Use your brain, idiot. As jobs that support consumption disappear, the jobs that provided for that consumption disappear. When there are no more people to buy bread, then why the fuck would there be bread factories? What good are the few factories that remain to the millions of people without jobs or the means to buy them? Governments both Republican and Democrat have been slashing already meager unemployment benefits for years, which is only going to depress demand, in turn depressing profitability, in turn necessitating the elimination of jobs.

Well golly would you look at that. Companies go bankrupt, everything of value gets stripped, thousands go without work and then New :^) companies come back, hire a fraction of the workers at a fraction of the wages and make millions more in profit. How do you think this is going to go, especially considering this year alone there have been a record number of store closings and a record number of bankruptcies in the retail sector? Come on, I'm sure you can figure this one out.

Because fuckwads like you apparently need idiots like me to do your fucking thinking for you.
Can you not fucking read, dipshit?
You incredible shithead.


i agree completelt, which if youve read my past posts youll know i never objected to this. however, my comment is that immigration isnt good for the host country's workers or the country where the workers are leaving from.
this doesnt necessarily mean immigration is good for the workers of the host nation.


ayy lmao

Yeah, you're right. I'm so used to only being met with the dumbest fucking shit from witless retards that I went off half cocked, I'm sorry. One second and I'll write up an answer for you and refrain from calling you a bunch of names while doing so.

Immigration is Imperialist and needs to be described as such

Except that's wrong. My entire point has been that there are limits to this effect. There will always be some demand for certain goods such as food and meeting that demand will always require some form of manufacturing and logistics near to that demand.

Immigration is a fact under Capitalism, and it'll be a fact under Socialism. Under Capitalism, it's just another means of subjugating the working class. The proles of this or that nation will have no means of effecting immigration policy one way or another, and I'll explain why.

The only people experiencing the effect of borders are the proles of any given country. The national bourgeois use their governments to enforce these borders to inhibit the flow of people from one to the other for innumerable reasons, but the ultimate effect is a divided proletariat plagued by the towering intellectuals that think it's valuable to squabble between each other rather than working to overthrow Capitalism. The bourgeois is not hindered by borders, and neither are the corporations that rely on them. Even if the national proletariat managed to gain political power, we know that in isolation they will be either starved, bombed, or couped into submission by the likes of the US or other capitalist powers. They aren't shy about installing their Pinochets or Noriegas or whoever is willing to turn their guns on their own people, however unpopular they might be.

So, having no control over immigration under Capitalism, the proletariat has no interest in maintaining it. They have even less interest when considering that these borders might one day be used to keep them out. Countries prosperous now aren't going to remain prosperous forever. Even those that do will necessarily, as a consequence of the capitalist system, have their own "surplus populations," reserve armies of labor, people unable to find work or stay employed for long. Employment migration, which is already a fact of life for billions of people, is going to become a fact of life for the vast majority of working people. We can already see what little regard the proletariat has for borders when they stand between them and feeding themselves or their family, or at least not having to worry about a NATO bomb flatting their village. Even if the Capitalists do fork out the cash to maintain these national borders and imprison the people within them, with the sheer amount of people effected by diminishing economic prospects will still be enormous, even if the majority of people stay, or are forced to stay, home.

Ecological degradation is only going to increase the scale of this migration as formerly inhabited regions become uninhabitable. Jordan has a population of nearly 10 million people.
Already the Jordanian economy is being strained by the Syrian refugees they've accepted. As economy and ecology break down, these people are going to have to find somewhere to live. If the only means of living is in Europe, then they're going to come to Europe, and they're going to come armed. Why wouldn't they? If they stay, they'll die, and if they go, they just might die.

We know that Capital has no interest in even preserving the environment, much less restoring it. The Southern half of Florida is in danger of sinking beneath the Gulf, and they do nothing. Major cities are devastated by hurricanes, and they do nothing. Hundreds of thousands of gallons of petro chemicals spill into the gulf of Mexico and the plains of the US midwest and they do nothing. The Great Barrier Reef becomes a 3000 mile long corpse, and they do fucking nothing.

For the proletariat, the future Capitalism will produce only becomes more horrific with each passing day. The only option if these billions of people don't want to die is to take control of their economies, take control of their countries, and abolish Capitalism wherever it is found, to the last iota.

But that won't undo the damage already done, and the damage still to come. Countries like Iraq and Afghanistan are going to need to be rebuilt and made livable. To avoid otherwise inevitable conflict, the people in the countries most effected will need to be relocated and accommodated. This will have to be administered as clinically as the economy, not for the least reason being that the international nature of economics will itself need to be maintained. To continue producing at enough levels to feed these increased populations, let alone their own, will require all the modern minerals, chemicals, parts, and production processes we currently use.

It's only through a rational system of socialist production that the needs of the world's population can be met, and it's only the socialist system of production that can make it happen. The brain drain created by capitalist immigration would not exist in such a system. The West is already replete with educated classes and the institutions necessary to create more. Bring the uneducated, educate them, and leave the experts necessary to make these countries habitable. Repatriate the expatriated when it becomes possible to do so, if they so choose.

The only option to peaceful, managed, rational relocation is wasteful, idiotic warfare. Immigration isn't "good for socialism," it will be a fact of life, socialist or no, even within the prosperous west. It's happened before with the Dust Bowl, itself in danger of happening again as farmers cut down the trees necessary to arrest land erosion. California is ravaged by devastating annual fires. The water tens of millions of people rely on to survive are being squandered on keeping the lawns of rich people green and the production of cash crops.

And for any of this to happen, and for us all not to fucking starve to death, there is no alternative besides abolishing capital and cooperating internationally to use planetary resources in the most effective ways possible. In order to prevent destructive and wasteful warfare, we're going to need to completely transform our societies in practically every way from their current state, because to not begin this transformation as soon as possible and to not avoid the waste of petty national warfare and to not rationally manage these social transformations will mean to court ecological disaster on a global scale, and the subsequent death of billions of people, if not fucking everyone.

You can control crossborder movement and be humane about it.

Large sectors of Canada's economy are involved in resource extraction and are seasonal: harvesting, fisheries, tourism. Others are just in competition with big employers like oil companies or are in the middle of nowhere and get few takers at current wages.

Others are jobs that should be permanent, but aren't:

…under free trade. Slap a 50% tariff on imported goods and suddenly it is only profitable to sell soap and perfume if it's manufactured domestically.
I don't understand how controlling crossborder labour and capital movement puts us at the mercy of porky's divide and conquer tactics. If anything, pinning porky to a single nation-state drastically reduces his ability to divide and conquer workers within that country through outsourcing, temporary worker visas, imports from overseas factories.
A) Western countries can only support so many people, especially those with limited abilities to work jobs in a foreign society. Job markets can only absorb so much surplus labour. A large influx of people places a strain of services for integration, health care, housing, education and child care, etc.
B) How are you going to rebuild a society when you're also siphoning off a large portion of its population? Areas that depopulate after a crisis have a poorer prospect for rebuilding than those with ample labour ready to begin reconstruction immediately
It's also malicious to call wage-slaves selfish for fearing that a large influx of cheap labour might lead to his replacement.

I'm not a nationalist. I'm not led to skepticism of mass immigration because I want one nation/one volk, hate brown people or whatever nutsacc nonsense you usually hear from them. I just look at the evidence and can only see that mass immigration is a bad idea for almost everyone involved. Porky gets to undercut local wages, destabilize unions and have a captive workforce with no enforceable rights. Local workers lose job opportunities and bargaining power, and feel alienated from their own work and home. Immigrants sell themselves into virtual slavery where they have zero rights if illegal and a limited ability to enforce them if legal. Institutions and services in the home country are strained. Most importantly, the immigrant's home country has its own radical potential destroyed as unemployed youth can leave instead of picking up arms and fighting porky in Cameroon or Honduras.
Immigrants travel to wealthy countries because they perceive the opportunity for employment and a social welfare state that doesn't exist at home. They will travel if they know there's a chance they can get into the immigration/asylum system and come out with a permanent visa. Immigrants don't bother if their chances are slim. Crossings from Mexico into the US have dried up since Trump was elected, even though there has been virtually no substantial change to immigration policy - the perception of the US being less friendly to undocumented immigrants was enough to discourage most.
So why isn't management hiring italians?
Look I'm not denying that these people are our comrades, but I think you're confusing radicalism born from desperation for a genuine radicalism born from a desire for a better world.
See my earlier comment on how this is honestly borderline malicious towards people who are worried about their own personal ability to survive. Telling a retiree with a son who's sent out 50 job applications with no luck that his son might be the problem, not a massive labour glut is the type of arguments get me and other socialist labeled arrogant elitists

I guess anything is possible in the land of make believe and wishing.

Fuck the lumpenproles. Anyone who isn't on the left in the current year is a class traitor and is the enemy. Anyone who pretends to give a fuck about workers who willingly serve porky is just using that as justification for Not Socialism.

Gulag them all(USER WAS BANNED FOR BEING Holla Forums)

Many nations continue to have strong capital controls and tariff regimes. My country has tariffs upwards of 200% on a ton of agricultural products. They keep porky from destroying Canadian farms with foreign eggs, milk, butter, etc.

Holla Forums we're trying to have a civil discussion here.

"Fuck the war refugees and african immigrants, let them starve or earn .10c per hour, only whites can be working class."
t. Holla Forums

This is actually what happens though. If we look at the European experience of the past few years, the Balkan nations building physical walls and stopping people from freely moving to Western Europe has dramatically reduced the amount of people deciding to move to Europe. The actual refugees, who move from their homes because their lives are in acute danger from war or hunger, typically move to the neighboring provinces or countries. People coming to Europe on the other hand need to pay the smugglers something on the order of 3000 - 7000$ per person. As border controls are tightened, that amount goes up, and the people who can afford to move declines precipitously.
If you wan to make the moral case for the free movement of people, do so, but don't pretend like it is entirely outside of human/government control.
This is true, and an important point; if there is no strong worker organization, they will be exploited no matter how many migrants come in. It would be wrong to conclude that the opposite is also true though, that organized workers will be as well off no matter how many new people come in. Because here two facts come into play: that of a swelling reserve army of labour putting more power in the hands of capital, and the additional strain newcomers put on existing welfare regimes.
On that last point you could respond by saying that it is an unfair one, that workers who reason like that are of the "fuck you I've got mine" mindset, and you wouldn't be wrong. But you still have to reckon with it when you organize politically; it's easy to stand together in solidarity to ask for new things, but a lot harder to stand in solidarity by giving things up.

thanks OP, this needed to be said imo. I don't know why being anti-immigration has become trendy here, perhaps due to ex-Holla Forums, but it's rather cancerous.

Abolish capital and borders will collapse naturally.

Abolish borders and porky will just rub his hands and exploit the west with imported lumpen

This is easily demonstrated to anyone who attends a zero-hours contract employer as a worker in the UK. I was stunned at the number of Eastern Europeans working at the factory I attended, used as disposable labour for an abusive employer. It's worth stressing that this was the sort of place where you had to show up in the morning, at your own expense, to find out at the factory gates if there might be any work for you. The dire economic straits these poor Eastern Europeans found themselves in have enabled this sort of predatory employer and the "no-borders" poster is the greatest ally such porkies could ever desire.

Correctly pointing out that most mass immigration results in a massive gluts of labour and porky exploiting an army of quasi-slaves with few enforceable rights isn't "anti-immigrant." No-one here wants a complete halt to immigration or thinks that immigrants are some barbarian invader horde. We just want immigration policies that are good for needed immigrants, local workers and social programs

all good points, thanks

Why don’t you explain to me why the NGOs and imperialists who started the wars and support them support mass third world immigration?

it's so sad to see how many "leftist" are falling for this spooky nationalistic meme

and of course, it's a fucking rose

wew lad


In the US (and therefore the world) you only get welfare if you've been employed or are currently employed. The only people that get welfare are the ones that have paid into it, you dumb fucker.

And yes, you're a spooked fucking dipshit.

No, it's you being an anti-worker traitor.
"I just want immigrants that can be properly exploited for my corporate masters, please fuck my face Porky-sama."

That's not "pinning porky to a single nation-state." There's nothing stopping foreign capital from just buying these native industries and circumventing your tariffs, you simpleton, absolutely nothing considering your agricultural land ownership is managed by province, are nominal at best, and what restrictions do actually exist are riddled with the usual "well it's okay if it economically benefits Canada" exemptions. And, once again, you can't expect to have "capitalism in one country."

How long do imagine tariffs will stay in place for the sake of your piddling egg industry?
wew, sounds great
literally fucking nothing


Without borders the price and wage controls that necessitate the importation of labor vanish.

I'm starting to see the value of a vanguard party since there are so many idiots like you that seem to have no use for their brains. They haven't just "found themselves in dire economic straits," those circumstances were manufactured as much as anything else, and you seem incapable of figuring out why. If the economic circumstances require that there be this foundation of easily exploited labor, imagining for a second that Eastern Europe weren't a factor, that they wouldn't just create this population domestically, you fucking idiot? Build a wall around your stupid country and they'll do the same thing Porky's always done, which is create a portion of the population so immiserated that they'll work for whatever is given to them. It doesn't matter if its Plamen from Sofia or John from Rhyl. Porky doesn't care.
Yes, it's really the person arguing for international worker solidarity that's Porky's ally, and not the short sighted, worthless piece of reactionary shit divvying up his "countrymen" from all the rest. Fuck you.

I see what you're saying about how immigration is a unavoidable material fact and that we should build infrastructure to help refugees integrate with society BUT I think you are missing the point of criticizing mass immigration caused by war (and soon to be global warming) being used to hurt the working class by displacing people and giving reactionaries a reason to have a platform. Porky benefits from the societal devastation caused by mass immigration, and the workers (both immigrant and non-immigrant) stand to suffer.
Seems like you have a lot of justified anger about this subject and you come off as a anarkiddie.

Interesting how every post by this histrionic open border absolutist consists of personal insults, swearing, and accusations of not actually being a leftist - all directed at other leftists. Purely premised on not agreeing with him prima facie. I'm calling it, it's a false flag.

Open borders require an equivalent standard of living worldwide. Literally everything has to be the same or it fails apart.

They're also incompatible with sweeping social programs they require perfect information on who is where.

Been seeing a couple posters like this in the past few days, is Twitter/Reddit leaking more than usual or something?

oh god no not swearing on an imageboard mr namefag

ironically, badjacketing is pretty good as far as COINTELPRO is concerned


Sometimes I forget just how hard the leftist brain is fixated on the “downtrodden minority” image produced by white guįlt.

still butthurt that you've not been able to seriously grapple with anything in the OP or subsequent arguments that happened after it?

hey buddy. still alive?

I'd hardly call it white guilt, but yeah imagine seeing someone who is weak and wanting to help them instead of stamp on their face while jacking off to some phony darwinist bullshit

I care more about migrant labor then I care about the NEETs who complain about migrant labor. It's fucked anyways. Who cares.

Kinda reminds me of the webm of the pro refugee aid volunteers getting mobbed, and their shit taken away from them. You expression was that of “I-I think I did the right thing”.


I admin a deticated server in CSGO, and really want to be able play vidya without 14 year old spics screaming over the mic, but leftypol has convinced me boundaries of authority are a spook so I refuse to ban them.

I don't know how you can get around this: the more people you have within a single area, the larger the amount of surplus labour you're going to have. Even without visa restrictions, you're still going to have a steady stream of people with little effective ability to enforce their own rights or reach out to other workers who don't speak their language or understand the legal system. This makes these new immigrants easy prey for employers that want a submissive, compliant labour force.

I am just pointing out that there are hard limits to how many people a market can absorb, and smaller limits on how many people can be integrated into a culture that favours labour organization and socialism.

Even with a proper DotP and worker-controlled MoP, you're still going to have to deal with finite resources and manpower. Having a controlled number of immigrants that can quickly and easily fill roles within any economy, even socialist economies, means that fewer resources are required to get the immigrant established and integrated within that economy and civil society.

If you have a lifeboat that can only seat 30 people, and the boat's full (i.e. the host society cannot spare any more resources to integrate newcomers without subtracting from the quality of life of locals) there's no safe way of trying to get more people aboard that boat. You can do everything in your power to help others still in the water. You can toss them life preservers, or better yet you can force the shipping company to have more than enough lifeboats for everyone on board ahead of time. But you can't keep hauling people in if that means risking sinking the lifeboat.

Canada has had foreign ownership requirements in certain industries for a long time:
Because we've been run by a series of neoliberal vampire governments content to defang regulatory barriers through lack of enforcement. The instruments still exist, all that is needed is the will to use them.
Why should my country be coerced into a race to the bottom where we let all our domestic industries atrophy so that we can pour more and more money into exporting the few goods we're good at producing? Many of which aren't exactly in infinite supply, mind you.

This specific guy may be trying too hard to be believable, but most of the anti-borders people are arguing in good faith. They honestly believe that borders aren't necessary and are harmful, and that (for various reasons) freedom of movement throughout the globe should be a guaranteed right without restriction. The only problem is in the naivete of this approach.

We should keep that in mind when arguing with people on the left (or even liberals!) about migration. Having bad or misguided ideas isn't a moral failing and we shouldn't berate people or question their sincerity solely for that reason. We should just carefully point out the failings and problems of the anti-borders approach.

Wtf gulag em ye idiot

I didn't completely believe what the OP was saying about 'anti-worker traitors' and whatnot, but you're seriously going to argue that migration would need hard restrictions under international socialism?

the Wolff does point out in the video OP posted that the reason for mass migration is primarily economic disparity between nations. this is just opportunism at this point.

I don't think you're completely wrong about tariffs being not such a bad thing, though.

Holla Forums tier analogy

thanks for at least grappling with the subject though, which is more than I can say for that fuckwit you replied to here. I think this is an important argument to have here on occasion.

polite sage.

Fair enough. Might be that the poster is question doesn't have an agenda. Still, this style of interaction - "if you don't agree with me you 're a fucking fascist" - only ever damages leftism, even if it comes from someplace sincere. It should be called out. This thread is full of good arguments contra naive open borders thinking, but the comebacks are more often than not laced with base accusations of being an idiot, traitor, conscious or unconscious racist, dumb fucking retard, etc. Which is the norm when it comes to this topic, it's tiresome. It's like there's something about migration that just fries the non-emotive part of people's brains.

Under *international* socialism, there'd be much less of an argument for it - assuming that living standards and programs available are broadly comparable from state to state.
I'd also like some hard physical barriers, mostly to combat human trafficking, smuggling etc.

Oh absolutely.