Hi from T_D

This, if you make your business a workers co-op you won't be bullied at all.

Not OP, but I'd like to chime in as an ancap.
I think that's bullshit. You are in no way exploiting others by running a business, people willingly work for you, can you be willingly exploited? Is it exploitation if you are willing? In what way are you exploited? There needs to be some form of hierarchy who can tell people what to do, my logic for capitalism and labor under capitalism in specific is that some labor is worth less than other labor and not everyone is cut out for the same labor, running a business is a lot more demanding mental labor that requires a higher education as opposed to simple physical labor which requires little to no education. People are by nature extremely selfish, sorry, but that's the truth, we won't all be living in villas and mansions under communism and neither we will under capitalism, but in capitalism you can earn your way to the villa or mansion by getting a good education and being cunning, you aren't restricted to your line of labor and can work toward a higher paying job if you have that desire. In my opinion, in communism the 1% becomes the 0.1% instead, that being the extremely small political class. Anarcho-communism is a different manner and I don't really think it's very logical, it could survive as tribalism, but with hierarchy isn't anarchism anymore, I guess.
I know I probably won't be changing minds here, this is like going on Holla Forums to say "fuck donald drumpf #imwithher", it's largely meaningless to even type this out as this will either get removed or people will just call me names, but whatever.

Okay, who will run the business then? Who is going to actually get the product from the factory to the shop? Are people just going to do it themselves without any leadership at all? The tiny cog at the top is still needed to keep the machine running. If that machine falls apart, in capitalism people just adapt to build another machine because they saw the profit that is to be had, what is my purpose to start another machine (business) to fill a need if I'm going to eat the same bread, live in the same apartment and drive the same car as a janitor?

Pic unrelated aside from the fact that I am an ancap.

...

So why did you even post that nonsense?

No, it's not. Slavery is forced labor with no chance to not do it without punishment. I can stop working at my job tomorrow and my only punishment would be that I wouldn't get my paycheck, even then I can find another job or start my own business.

Because I wanted to. I'm looking for actual discussion.

You literally replied to the two least convincing posts in this thread fam. Obviously the owner of a business has a ton of responsibilities they have to deal with, but that doesn't justify paying workers less than their labor is actually worth. If you're paying your workers fairly you won't have to adjust very much to adapt to a socialist system. You're right to say that some labor is worth more than other labor, communists don't disagree, they just think that everyone should be given the full value that their labor produces (accounting for the costs associated with running the bushiness). This is market socialism 101 fam.

The problem is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss. Communism will abolish generalized commodity production, wage labour etc.

Why do ayncraps always reply to the obvious shitposts and never the posts with actual arguments?

Yes, because there's an infinite amount of jobs out there.
so you lose your means of survival, nope not forced at all.
are ancaps this deluded that they think people have hundreds of thousands in their bank account or access to a line of credit? This is rhetorical btw, we know you are.

Thanks for shitting up the thread, /liberty/. Tell us about how your individualism trumps the mutual aid argument. The weak shall fear the strong!

fuck now I think we would let this donald supporting bankcuck small business owner live and instead spend resources killing people like you

You'll no longer have to live with the stress of running a business because it'll be transformed into a co-op. You'll enjoy an upper middle-class lifestyle like most people when the real porkies of the world are purged.

I'm glad we see eye to eye that some labor is worth more than others.
Arguably without any other influence, capitalism keeps producing wealth as everyone needs to compete for two things: labor and customers, and to do that you must increase paychecks for the laborers and product quality and a lower price for the customers to pay for the laborers, it's essentially a positive feedback loop.

Calling me dumb isn't an argument either.

But that's untrue. You can plow your own field and feed yourself and keep everything you harvested and sell off what you don't need, or just find another job. There's plenty of odds and ends to do.
You seem to think starting a business is something extremely difficult and something that requires a ton of money, it's really not.

Or instead of starving, find another job. Finding a job isn't a difficult manner, there's plenty of jobs to do, some better than others, but if you're willing to work it's easy to feed yourself. You could always also rely on friends and family, if needed, or just help from kinder locals.
Care to tell me why most lefty memes are unfunny edits of better right winger memes? There are few actually original leftist memes, only ones I can think of are Stirner and Porkie.

I'm sure you folks are going to beating down my door in a country that came out of communism around 25 years ago. Fuck off. If eating plenty every day and having an abundance of all basic needs is being "cucked", then I'm fine with being cucked.

Then don't reply to two one sentence replies with no serious arguments

Except under capitalism the rate of profit tends to fall, which means that firms need to cut costs wherever they can to remain profitable, which entails stagnant wages.
Additionally there's the problem of job automation which means that an automated capitalist society will either have a bunch of pointless jobs or extreme economic instability and near full unemployment. A UBI would (very) arguably fix this, but at that point why not just go all the way to socialism? Competition would be nearly impossible in a fully automated economy anyways, so why not just go full socialist at that point?

>dude you can totally find another job, your family and locals will surely have the money

I think you're looking for an egalitarian society.

You kidding? The modern left is entirely bankrolled by millionaires and billionaires.

RMMT

The rate of profit has a tendency to fall because capitalist competition undercuts the stability of the total system, leading to an inevitable cycle of crises
of course ancaps are like "np bro no govt to ruin capitalism with bailouts i mean sure its bad that you got your life savings wiped out when your bank collapsed and you had essentially no control over it but thats just life bro get over it just start over again bro"

Is ancapistan perpetually stuck in early 19th century America? The commons have been closed, there is no unclaimed land.

The historical ignorance is staggering. Industry with little to no government oversight was the name of the game during industrial revolution, it lead to awful conditions for the workers. Labour surplus made wages a perpetual race to the bottom - workers had to choose between starvation for themselves and their family or terrible and dangerous working conditions for a bare minimum pay. This is why the concept of industrial action was invented. There, a free history lesson.

I know this is bait, but just for funsies care to provide some examples?

1) You share the business with your employees
2) You gotta be elected CEO if you want to keep directing it
2a) From now on, you will have to consult your workforce on the decisions you make.
3) A few of your pay is going somewhere else.

t. Market Socialist

That "seize the means of production" Marxism is passe in a modern post-industrial global economy. It's an extinct political philosophy. Modern leftism is about large corporations eroding national boundaries and eroding in order to operate with impunity on a global scale, hence promoting mass immigration and lowering the value of labor among the working class.

If you want to debate some kind of classical Marxism, I suggest you get in your time machine and go find an active imageboard in 1920. Is this actually what leftypol is about, throwing a red filter over your images and LARPing as the Red Army in 2017?

Try all of them. Start with CNN and Facebook and work your way down. Unless you want to argue that those are rightist organizations, in which case I await the elaborate mental shuck-and-jive.

No you stupid faggot.
thirdworldtraveler.com/Parenti/Liberal_Media_Myth_DT.html
Parenti was right about this in the 90s and it's still true today

Almost nobody here is uncritical of the USSR and Marxism-Leninism is one of the most polarizing ideologies on here, lurk more faggot. also

Not leftist
Not leftist and not even a media outlet unless you're a basic bitch or 80

It doesn't take a mental shuck and jive to say that red baiting media isn't leftist, dipshit

Ideologically consistent socialists are structuralists - that is it is not the capitalist or business owner as a person we hate, but the system that creates the class system they are on top of.

That is not to say some of the most egregous practicians of predatory capitalism who go unpunished under the current regime wouldn't get punishment and re-education.

Ah, a politically illiterate liberal American who is somehow stuck in the early 2000s. Not even Fukuyama is a fukuyamaist anymore.
The political spectrum is not static and depends on perspective, but I'm just going to say that the fact that you call megacorps and fucking hyperliberal CNN 'left' tells a lot about you and especially the society that you live in. Your examples are called 'neoliberalism' which is something the left opposes.

So much for the "free market of ideas" right. Btw, if ours is such a dead ideology then why is every "leftist" media outlet having a shitfit about those stinking commies? This past year has had a different thinkpiece from a major outlet at least once a month about how "actually the 'alt-left' is just as bad as the right. we need centrism"

Just like you they're only interested in keeping the status quo and tweaking it imperceptibly, because you're cucks for the establishment and the system. But don't let that dissuade you. The way to beat the neoliberal order is with neocons

Why would he do all this, you idiot? Because of his morals or something? The communist critique of capitalism isn't a moralist one, it's scientific and amoral. Capitalists don't make money because they are greedy or evil, they are forced to do so by the forces of capital.
This explains everything, from your shitty understanding of capitalism to your petit bourgeois moralism.

Cue the elaborate mental shuck-and-jive. At least right wing Holla Forums's Jewish connections are actually factually true, even if the implications may not be. That guy's assertions about the lack of progressive narratives is even less true now than it was in 1996. Class warfare, race-baiting, and divide and conquer based on sex, race, religion, gender, etc are the bread and butter of a modern MSM news organization. Hell, he's talking about William F. Buckley as if he wasn't brought on there as a contrarian in his own time.

Well if your version of the left does not include hyperliberals, then you are an anachronism.

What are you even talking about? They spend most of their time crying about how Donald Trump is a fascist and a Russian Manchurian candidate and how Islam is a religion of peace. Absolutely nobody is talking about the "alt left".

You fucking idiot, market socialism is usually also Marxist. Market socialism is essentially democratic ownership of the means of production you fucking retard.

It's only elaborate to you because you have the mind of a toddler. Any adult could understand it with ease

Because in this scenario everyone wins and lives, hopefully, a better life.
In my scenario the workers own the MoP.

It strictly speaking isn't. Market Socialism still produces value for profit, even a communal one.

Well that's one dodge and surrender, two more to go.

I know you get your news from reddit but if you look at any of the headlines that aren't posted to T_D you'd know what I was talking about.

No dodge or surrender. You just declared you didn't understand what was presented to you, drooled all over yourself, then declared victory.

That image is satirical, idiot.

Yep, so by definition they aren't leftist.

Sorry for not fitting neatly into your American fukuyamaist paradigms. Hyperliberals are not left precisely because they will externalise the system's (I'm talking about capitalism here) inherent problems into some idealistic shit like 'greedy corporations' or '2 many racisms'.

You're assuming that Market Socialism is a strictly economic system, which just isn't the case. Markets aren't intrinsically capitalist dipshit.

And that's the second dodge of the point followed by implied surrender. This isn't taking long.

If you duck the central point and start hissing like an animal, I take that as flying the white flag.

Fancy that, an actual response. Unfortunately it just boils down to an ideological difference between what you want the left to be, versus what it actually is. I'm interested in discussing the left that actually exists, not the one that should exist in theory.

Well this was a waste of time. The alt-left isn't impressing me with its ideological consistently much less its logical coherence. I guess that explains why I never heard of you guys until you started begging the mega-corporations you hate to pull down youtube videos. Peace out.

Right, but most tankies don't understand Marx well enough to get that nuance and the post seemed sincere so I chose to argue with them on their own terms.

Oh boy. America isn't the world buddy. You'll find the left is very much alive and even making a comeback of sorts in places like the UK with the Corbyn surge and elsewhere in Europe with Podemos etc.

Stop it

Your whole "point" is just semantic. It's not a dodge to recognize that. It makes no difference to us

That's what repeating the word "dodge" with nothing to back up your points looks like to me

Good, then leave. No one wants or needs you here

Jesus fuck you're dense. The only consistent definition of "leftist" that has ever existed is "anti-hierarchical". Can you point to a single anti-hierarchical MSM outlet? No? Then you have no point. As said, the very qualities you ascribe to so-called leftist media is what makes them inherently anti-leftist, and it doesn't help that their main attack on russia is that they're "dirty commie infiltrators". If their biggest attack on Trump is that he's being controlled by commies then they're not even pretending to be leftist.

I look forward to your "implied surrender"

If the revolutionaries in question are still falling for the nationalization meme, then none of them will control it.

Unlike actual capitalists, they actually work as well instead of only exploiting, so he can join in. However, the responsibility the owner takes on or the effort he puts in are laudable, but are not an argument for him keeping his property private, because extracting surplus-value is exploitation and that's all there is to it.

You're making big, big assumptions here about all aspects of jobs. To say nothing of the situation in undeveloped countries.

It's about 100 years away, if my calculation is right.

Well when you get your industrial era communist collective going in 2017 we can talk I guess.

Utopianism at its finest. Hierarchy transcends the very species. Hell, even lobsters have hierarchies. I can't think of any government, leftist or rightist, that was "anti-hierarchical". In fact, I would say leftist governments are by far the most hierarchical of all. Lenin's government, Mao's government, the gang of four, the Khmer Rouge, the Kim dynasty in Korea, all far more hierarchical than their western counterparts. Leftist media is screaming about fascism, the alt-right, and the evil dictator Putin and you're giving me this tedious "No True Leftist" nonsense.

Has OP even replied since he made this thread?

Anti-hierarchical doesn't mean "no hierarchies", but it must include challenging the existing hierarchical structure. What's the point of arguing with you if you don't even know basic definitions? That was the definition of the left/right split.

I don't really have time to address your little mermaid fanfiction but what I said is just factually correct. There's no way around this.

Does the MSM really call Russia communist? I might have to just end my life right now if that's true.

Yeah, both Fox and CNN will have long pieces about how Putin is "former KGB" and then *wink wink* about how the old USSR is up to its old tricks. And then chucklefucks like the retard in this thread will come in to let us know that he's bucking the system by listening to the liberals that prefer red over the liberals that prefer blue.

Every government in human history has had a challenge to its existing hierarchical structure. Hell, it is literally built into the mechanics of modern democratic-republics.

I came here to try and get an idea about what you people believe to contextualize why you're going around the internet flagging people's videos using corporate tools when you're purportedly against corporations. So far my impression is that you guys are just edgy teenagers that read a few pieces of alternative literature. It's an unending torrent of No True Scotsman fallacies, utopianism, and autistic screeching. MLP would have put up a better fight.

No, actually they portray him as an autocratic dictator. They occasionally invoke KGB parallels in the context of him poisoning his political rivals to show that he's generally an evil bad guy. The people in this thread are attempting to frame criticism of Putin as criticism of communism. It's an idea without a logical nexus, but you don't need a logical nexus when your ideas are internally inconsistent.

10 million small businesses count for nothing

100 multinationals count for everything

ur business will be collectivized but you probably wont be gulaged or anything

Read nigga

I know she technically isn't with CNN anymore but still.

Anti-monarchist republicans in the 18th century were leftists because they challenged the existing hierarchical structure of feudal monarchy. Liberal democracy is no longer leftist as it only works to sustain the current hierarchical system. This is not a complicated idea.

Oh lol so you're a gigantic fucking faggot. Holla Forums flagged channels we valued, and so we're striking back. An eye for an eye, we do not moralize about "bad tactics" when our enemies will make no such concessions. Only a liberal would value pontification over imagined hypocrisy and so-called moral "victories" over actual victories.

The rest of your response bitching about what you came here for and the ad hom of what you think of me or the rest of this board is of no concern to me.

...

FREEDOMMMMM

DEATH TO ALL ENEMIES OF THE WORKING CLASS

You're such a dumbass

Here you go dumb fuck

Not even close to the only example either

We just elected a candidate that pissed off the existing groups in power in the US using those built in mechanisms, but I'm sure that doesn't count. Your idea isn't complicated, but it is void for vagueness. You guys speak in these massive generalities that are completely undefinable for any practical purpose.

I go on pol daily and I thought leftypol was just a meme. I now see why. If I went into a pol thread and started this much shit, they would be drowning me in supporting infographics and facts. Meanwhile you guys are repeatedly losing 5v1 arguments about your own ideology. You wanted attention, you got it, and now you're embarrassing yourselves.

No we didn't. Trump does nothing to challenge the current system and the only complaint they have of him is that he's "undignified". Go back and watch the so-called leftist media response to his missile launches with everyone from Brian Williams to Fareed Zakaria creaming their pants over his "presidential turn". Your anti-establishment candidate is a joke

Not an argument, and you only think this is a salient point because your conception of "anti-establishment" that challenges the current system is electing a ruder neocon.

no shit

Lmao. "Saying I win is the same as winning" and "I get all my knowledge from Holla Forums infographics" in just a couple sentences. And you call Holla Forums a meme

We go into Holla Forums all the time. They "drown us" in "lol dindu nuffin" and call us cucks. Those aren't facts

IQ maps aren't facts nor infographics

Absolutely disgusting.

Why not change it to a coop?

Nah. We wanted revenge and we got it. You coming here to cry about it and fill your diaper is just a nice bonus

He points out the one thing that they have approved of to imply that they approve of him in general when they spend every other waking moment trying to destroy him. Again, all you do is this No True Scotsman nonsense. So far you guys have told me that leftists aren't actually leftist, challenges to hierarchies aren't really challenges to hierarchies, and the establishment isn't really the establishment. The only reason your arguments could possibly make sense even to yourself is if you have constructed this elaborate alternative universe to inhabit, which is exactly what you have done. I see the same shit from SJW's and the alt-right, and it's no less pathetic here.

I love when you get a guy this far on the ropes and he starts trying to misquote you to attack you, classic panic move. At least when Holla Forums screeches at me about the Jewish Conspiracy, they can actually cite a disproportionate number of Jews in power. I imagine if you were alt-right instead of alt-left, you'd be trying to argue with me about the definition of what a Jew is in that situation, because the definitions that everyone in the world except for you uses just aren't good enough.

I came here to see what you guys believed and it actually just affirmed all of the stereotypes. "Never been tried" "That's not really leftism" "I want to use my own definition of this word" "My utopian idea isn't utopian because I say it isn't." I genuinely believe that most of you are underage at this point.

He says as he confirms every stereotype. Seriously keep going this is great

You said Holla Forums would:
"drowning me in supporting infographics and facts"
as a positive feature. This betrays that you believe that Holla Forums infographics are sound factual sources (they aren't) and conform to a big stereotype of Holla Forumsyps (they get their facts and ideology from badly sourced infographics). No misquotation necessary.

You say this as if there's anything leftist about the MSM. You've offered no proof of this whatoever. All you've done is described the MSM and said it's leftist. This is a non-argument and you should know better.

You are free to point to a single notable deviation of Trump from the establishment consensus on policy. Seriously, anything that any old neocon wouldn't be doing would suffice.

This isn't the west wing faggot. You're not gonna "by your own logic" us into being sad that we did something effective against your web presence.

I accept your surrender too. As an American, this feels a lot like the end of WWII with all of you bulldozing each other to be the first to fail against elementary arguments.

Actually I was saying they would try to use facts to refute me. No reasonable person would obviously try to state that every infographic they use is factual or not factual, or well sourced or poorly sourced. You're trying to hard to find a way out. A gentleman would just surrender.

I already had that discussion with one of you and we talked about their massive emphasis on left wing social issues and globalist corporatism. The response I got was typical of the responses I have gotten from you guys so far "That's not leftism because leftism is like, anti-hierarchy, man." Followed by another redefinition of the word hierarchy to try and make that sentence make sense, etc.

The context of that was not to debate whether Trump is anti-establishment or not. The context was that an anti-hierarchical mechanic within a democratic republic (the government system we were debating) allowed someone to win in spite of being visibly opposed by the existing hierarchy. Whether he actually lived up to that was completely irrelevant to the point that the statement you are quoting was used to prove.

Okay, new rule, if you haven't taken at least one logic class, don't reply to me anymore, this is just getting silly.

You don't prove ideological differences with facts. Learn to is-ought

Great, this demonstrates that one of your central axioms is that social issues can be inherently left wing, and that "global corporatism" is inherently left wing". If you're appealing to American political consensus than state so. Don't leave the thought dangling in the air, it's just lazy at best.

At best the conclusion you reach is that we aren't leftist according to the American left, and everyone here thinks the "American left" is trash anyway. You've merely proven a semantic point.

The question of whether Trump is opposed to the existing hierarchical structure is tied into the idea of whether or not he's anti-establishment. There is no practical difference between those two questions.

Incorrect. If he doesn't live up to it it speaks to the possibility of challenging the existing hierarchy within its existing framework, and further challenges your notion that any establishment force (media or otherwise) could ever be meaningfully anti-establishment.

Unenforceable, and implies you are making logically rigorous statement when your arguments are built on unstated assumptions and shaky reasoning.

Yep, they would try to use facts to refute me, rather than simply redefining words like you guys do. I hate to break it to you but, Holla Forums is actually intellectually superior to you guys. I'm so sorry.

Learn the definition of that word before using it. It's not an axiom of leftist thought, the emphasis is an important characteristic of modern leftist thought that evidences their leftist stance.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the definition of leftism acted upon by neoliberals and progressives in the west is the definition of leftism today whether you like it or not. Now you can redefine words in ways that only make sense to you if you like, but don't get upset when people don't use your contrived, personal definitions.

This is why I said take a logic class before trying to argue with me. The point was the establishment opposed him and a mechanic built into the system allowed him to take power anyway. The fact that he may or may not have turned out anti establishment after seizing power was irrelevant to the discussion we were having.

Do you get sore from reaching that much? Choosing to interpret Trump's choice to be anti-establishment or pro establishment after bucking the establishment could be taken as evidence that the system is broken entirely, and it doesn't surprise me that you chose to interpret it that way because you guys have this huge fetish for broad, sweeping generalizations. I can get there with a far more narrow hypothesis, it's a commentary on Trump himself, not on the particular mechanics of democracy that worked to get him elected.