Israel - For Whom?

You should get rid of the idea that something so vague and obsfucating like an ethnicity or a culture can claim heiridatry rights to a piece of land based on national myths or religious texts. The region of the Levant belongs to the people living on its soil equally, their cultures and their expressions of self-determination. Israel must be entirely destroyed as it claims superiority through ethno-nationalism and religious chauvinism, and the solution should be a single, secular state, in which both Arab and Hebrew are official languages, in which claim of cultural superiority from either side, and in which all citizens share the freedom of movement as well as access to polticial participation and welfare.

One that is done, Jewish settlements which were directly responsible for displacing Palestinian families should be dissolved and redistributed, and the inhabitants should be forced to pay reparations.

...

THE WORKERS

You are saying Palestinians are the rightful owners while talking against ownership..

Anyhow anyone who spouts that they are more rightful owners is just being a reactionary leftist or rightist (funny both sides hate israel) and didn't real enough 1900-1970 history of israel

This was given as an option many times, Palestinians simply did not want it and Arabs went to war with israel over it many times

Individual Palestinian families have been displaced by imperialist aggression. These families have a right to be recompensated or to move back into the place they lived in. This isn't ethnic chauvinism, it is making sure that the specific frameworks which were used to oppress the Palestinian people is reversed and dismantled.

The "land" of Israel — or of any other nation-state for that matter — should "belong" to all who live and work there regardless of nationality, race, ethnicity, descent or heritage. Period.

The oldest "owners" of what is now the USA are the native tribes. Should white Americans be deported? Better yet — shouldn't Saxons expel the Normans from England, "their" land? In fact, as a Belgian of Dutch descent, I hereby declare myself heir to the throne of the House of Orange-Nassau.

Lebanese Christians

The situation back then was different, as they were targeted by direct imperialist aggression. At that time, Arabs had every right to drive the Jews into the sea.

Nowadays, many Jews who didn't have anything to do personally with that land robbery live in Israel now, and I don't hold them personally responsible for what their parents did, and they can live in the Levant for all I care. But families who have been directly displaced should throw the settlers out of their homes.

Really the challenges that Israel will go to and the struggle that will enfold over the Palestinian question will be greater then the challenges that South Africa faced after Apartheid.

I was listening to an old documentary from the late 50s that featured Boer community leaders who were both for Apartheid and against it. It was kinda amazing how even the pro-Apartheid defenders would go to great pains to emphasize that they didn't think the black race was "inferior" just different or at a lower stage of development. Pro-Apartheid propaganda used to make hay of the fact that blacks weren't treated as bad in South Africa as Palestinians were in Israel–which was correct.

The world would've been up in arms if anything like Operation Protective Edge occurred in South Africa, and OPE isn't even that unique Israel "mows the lawn" every couple of years. The military/political violence in South Africa has never been anywhere near the scale that occurred in Israel.

In order to prevent insurrection sometimes the Apartheid government would do things for blacks like build houses or provide subsidized water and electricity. Israel, on the other hand, decides how many food calories per capita they will allow to pass into Gaza–meaning they restrict the amount of food Palestinian capitalists and relief agencies are allowed to sell on the private market.

The Israelis hate Arabs more then the Boers disliked niggers. I just can't really see a peaceful solution working out that isn't either Algerian-style displacement of Israelis and/or descent into absolute fascism on the part of the Israelis.

You have no idea what they have done to reach that point
If Israel was as bad as you pretend, Palestinians would be all dead

Are you kidding me? What was happening in Gaza? So according to you it is only really bad if you completely eradicate an entire ethnicity which couldn't even be achieved by the Nazis? I'm sorry, I don't support imperialist ethno-nationalist apartheid states and they must be dismantled.

If Nazis were as bad as Jews pretend, Jews would be all dead

It's amazing to see the mental acrobatics liberals come up to idolize black revolutionaries in South Africa but absolutely condemn any militant Palestinian. All you need to do is to call somebody antisemite I guess..

Like all land, it should belong to no one but be enjoyed by all who live there.

And if Jews were as bad as Nazis pretend then they would not be able to thrwart the master race at every turn.

The problem with this simplistic view is that ethnic displacement had already occurred and must be reversed. Would you not grant First Nations a right to live in the Land from which they were deported?

Think before you post next time.

Can maoists just call themselves capitalists already?

No, it musn't. Ethnicity provides no rightful claim to a piece of land. Only someone who is living and working there has any proper claim.

"Bad" meaning "inferior."

ok nigger but who should live there?

ok i'm gonna take my burger guns and freedom, annex mexico, sell all the mexicans into slavery to coke death squads, and i have the right to own that land bc

are you lost, little timmy? here let me help you
>>>Holla Forums

Funny how you call me a capitalist for no reason but dive into AnCap lingo about muh homesteading. Dude, families have been displaced from their land forcefully, they have a right to reclaim it not through their ethnicity but because of their individual fate. Let's assume there is some sort of revolution and Israel transforms into a secular, non-chauvinistic state but completely leaves property relations intact - so the Jews still are well off while the Muslims should live in squalor because of muh homesteading?

I know you are going to quote me out of context now again and come up with some retarded strawman but whatever man

I got permanently banned from Holla Forums by saying that just because somebody is born with Semitic heritage doesn't automatically make them evil, or greedy. I've also been banned here on Holla Forums for 7 days because I suggested that patriarchy was a real thing, even if you don't realize it. Is Holla Forums for me, or should I go back to Reddit & cuckchan /a/?

Mayne don't namefag, gives people a bad vibe.

You had me at the trip.

Like any other place in the world, Israel belongs to those can defend their stake on the land

you could have left it at

so yes go back to reddit

Palestinians are literally living on israeli welfare and UN donations despite terrorizing israel for decades and never agreeing to any actual peaceful resolution

They are violent as fuck and hateful as fuck, if power was reversed Israel would be wiped out

Jews are sensitive as fuck to foreign pressure, there was a soldier who shot a terrorist who was armed but on the ground, and that soldier went to jail for it
Actual terrorists get trials and not just Guantanamo'd

Anti israel is either antisemitism for pol people or an extension of deeply triggering and problematic colonialism for leftists, when in fact arabs are cruel as fuck and full of hate

To the native working class. All european and russian jews (like Bibi) should sent back.

I know more about this than you
Gaza is entirely propped up by Israel + foreign donations, they are leeches with no economy
They have been gifted factories by israel and in turn turned them to rubble
They have used materials gifted for aid to built more tunnels for smuggling
They voted in hamas that sent missiles as far as fucking tel aviv and rishon lezion

There is no appeasing people like that

Fucking kill yourself you imperialist piece of shit.

People who want to…?

That's not immigration, that's military aggression.

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Byzantine-Christian🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

I don't think your essentialist arguments are going to convince anyone here, you might want to try Holla Forums instead

Go fucking kill yourself. Bombing civilians and denying water and aid to people and then complaining when they become radicalized? Wow I wonder why Hamas is so popular in Gaza

it wasn't about immigration, it's about changing who literally lives there. if i want to live in mexico, i can just move there. if that makes the land belong to me, what's stopping me from conquering mexico and exiling all mexicans to make it a white utopia or something?

This, but unironically

Israel is the only reason those people are alive
read about what they did in Jordan after jordan accepted some
they tried to overthrow the king
Jordanian response? killing them all

Patriarchy is so fucking vague it means nothing
you literally rationalize any outcome as patriarchy whether a man suffers or prospers

I WAS PERMABANNED FROM POL FOR SAYING THIS

Russian jews built israel

yes, but your mindset is the exact same as theirs, you just hate a different group for their 'essential characteristics'
go make a Holla Forums for pro-israel rightwingers

I'm not saying they are like that essentially, but they acted that way regardless of jow much they were offered, literally read more history

Gaza is also Egypt's responsibility and they even care less than Israel.
The blockades are usually because of terrorist attacks on Israel. The Tzuk Eitan operation 2 years ago was a response to increasing bombings of Israel.
Israel tried in several occasions to give palestinians land, everybody in this country vote mostly on this issue - giving land for peace and peace negotiations. It is the #1 issue of this country since it was founded.
The palestinians were under Jordanian and Egyptian rule and refused to acknowledge Israel as a state until Israel occupied more land due to war.
Then they recognized Israel and demanded the freedom of the palestinian people, something that never was demanded by any country prior.
The palestinians don't want peace, and you have to understand they are not really that united, the arab system works more similar to big families or tribes, so there wasn't ever a big palestinian nationalist moment until they had to fight the jews.
They don't want peace:
youtube.com/watch?v=aBDSRYlKd1Q

Israel's army is debating on weather to capture arab cities or not, and how not to kill civilians,
one of the more moral armies:

youtu.be/WSrZA-7Z2zg?t=1213

youtube.com/watch?v=tN1MkAGuVyY

how about you fuck off.
here is some fucking history for you

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You'll notice that in my post the mentions of "ownership" and "belonging" are in commas because I used the vocabulary of the person I was responding to without agreeing with its implications. My point is precisely that land doesn't belong to anyone.

rofl. fuck off you lying fraud

"israel" didn't exist until 1947. retard

stop embarrassing yourself you ignoramus

yeah it's not like jews have been militarily occupying the palestinian territories for 5 decades or anything
read: never agreeing to israel's fraudulent demands and refusal to make any concessions
unlike the pacifists of the idf. kill yourself you disgusting freak

fuck off you hasbara-peddling kike

literally kill yourself you piece of shit

Literally no context, plus it wasnt a Palestinian nation ever

Neoliberal redditor tier arguments

kill yourself

Israel shouldn't even exist.

xD
I'm not wasting my time with dishonest arguments

Are you saying Israel didn't offer arabs more land than jews prior to the independence war? and after? literally denying history

Can you keep your white guilt out of israel?

great points reddit

kill yourself

You are the same as pol, no arguments and extreme lack of historical knowledge about israel, just 100% feels

oh I changed my opinion then, good argument.

Great, now read some theory. Start with this:
monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
Also, a short intro to leftist economics (32 pages):
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Wage_Labour_and_Capital.pdf

i'm not sure i wanna be a commie anymore after this thread, you guys argue like retards, same as pol

i don't argue with jewish fanatics. fuck off and take your hasbara with you. then kill yourselves

Well, you did post a bit of a bait. Try reading those articles, (they're extremely short) and tell us what you think. Plus, you have no idea if the people you're responding to are Holla Forums crossposters. We get many here.

we have no desire for spooked retards, so you are no loss

i am not even religious and am not getting paid, you lack historical knowledge and argue like a retard, literally posting territorial change over decades of extremely detailed events as an argument

you misunderstood stirner, it's quite sad
merely identifying a spook as a spook does not invalidate the belief, if the egoist sees benefit in it, like he tells about love
honestly you are simply retarded

you don't have to be paid to be hasbara-spewing troll. which is what you are. fuck off

0 arguments, 0 historical knowledge besides basic media talking points

you misunderstand this board. zionists and other supremacists are not welcome

kill yourself

I just posted here because 8ch permabanned me, wanted to see if i should be a commie, apparently you are also stupid

* i mean pol not 8ch

fuck off then

wew
solid troll 7/10

i'm speaking from evidence of arguments in this thread, i did not come to troll

you're here to make apologia for israel. that is itself trolling. leave

Ignore the retards without arguments. The board has been unusually shitty recently.

Not into ownership? Where do you live? I'll relieve you of the burden of owning things.

Have you read any history at all? Jews are parasites that keep coming back after people have forgotten what they did in the past. Read the Kaufman plans and Hootens plans to see what is going on in Europe today was planned.

There's a difference between personal property and private property, silly anarkid.

Israel for anyone who's not going to shyst my tax dollars.

Not really, as shown here people really lack historical knowledge and have terrible arguments

Name one person who likes jews that isn't a jew himself or a porky

Karl Marx

Obviously. Didn't really feel like writing on the difference between personal and private property for an OP that is clearly an ex Holla Forumsup. And if u use context here you'd all see that we are talking about land on the scale of nation-states. I don't think bringing personal property is relevant here whatsoever,

property/possesion sounds way better than private property/personal property

It belongs to United Socialist Republics

Socialist World'Republic

this

The Land of Canaan has an extremely diverse population and immense history to it. Even though Jerusalem has a long Jewish history, it has also had an Arab, Muslim, and Christian identity to it as well. Even though Jerusalem can be widely considered a Jewish city, it is also an Arab, Muslim and Christian city as well. Overall anybody who lives there is allowed to. The land should "belong" to anybody; it's there for the people to live in and take care of

It SHOULDN'T "belong" to anybody

The first Zionist claim is "We've lived in this land longer than the Arabs." This justification is weak because the Biblical Israelites invaded the land and took it from other people to begin with. The second Zionist claim is "God gave us the land so it's okay that we took it." This position is hypocritical because people who say this are happy to disregard the part of the Bible in which Jesus rebukes the Jewish authorities and declares a "New Covenant" This "New Covenant" rejects the notion of the "chosen people"

These justifications pull the wool over the eyes of conservative Christians and many conservative Jews but are much less effective on secular minded people. For the secularists, Israel peddles the lie that it is acting in self defense whenever they bomb the fuck out of Gaza. This narrative is well accepted because the major press organizations do not report the instances in which Israel bombs children playing on a beach or bombs a cafe full of people watching the World Cup or bombs a school. They make up wholesale lies like "Palestinians hold babies in their arms while shooting at the IDF." to excuse civilian deaths.

The government of Israel fully supports settler encroachment upon Palestinian land. Tensions flare because the police go where the settlers go and violence inevitably erupts. Israel seizes houses and segregates cities (like Hebron) because they KNOW that these policies will cause anger and clashes. These clashes provide a justification for further military action against Palestine. For instance, the so-called "Great Wall of Israel" was built to prevent Palestinians from easily accessing Israeli land. Israel is purposefully provoking anger and violence because they can spin it as "Look! They attacked first" They simply repeat this process until the entirety of the West Bank is occupied.

When you corner a Zionist by pointing out the flaws in all their claims, they inevitably whine about "muh antisemitism" Any legitimate criticism of Israel is met with this response and so challenging the legitimacy of Israel is seen as equivalent to "Gas the kikes!" tier antisemitism.

TL;DR: Israel has no legitimacy whatsoever and its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is a sin against God. Short of a worker uprising, Israel is beyond saving and deserves destruction.

Citation needed

Shameless bump

Those people don't exist anymore, jews do
Also, it's not just the bible but historical reality, look at the timeline

After all that, Israel had legitimacy NOW because of all that happened since the start of the 20th century. Jews have earned it through sweat and blood by now.
Stop trying to be a white savior for the poor oppressed brown people when you have 0 historical knowledge.

fuck off ban evader

I wasn't banned here
I was banned on pol

nice try shlomo

Where does it say I was banned?

must be a coincidence, huh moshe?

I have mixed feelings about this. One one hand if Israel exists the Jews can be expelled there. On the other hand, it's rightful Palestinian clay and and the Israelis should be expelled from there. but then we will have to take the Jewish diaspora. There's no good solution.

I never tried to pretend to be other people, or avoided bans
What the fuck are you trying to say?

We don't want them back. Just line em up against the wall

People who try to live eternally by doing work while the country of Israel is home.

We've been saying it's colonialism from the get go, which is our opposition to it.

You're retarded if you don't accept that.