Is the gulag necessary?

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We don't need fucking labour deathcamps lad.

Prisons, sure. Forced labour deathcamps? Morally questionable at best and counter-productive if we look at modern correctional institutions.

That's the gayest shit I've read all day and I just came from a thread where half the posts were defending liking traps.

You're right. He should get the wall instead.

Countries of warsaw pact used to have penal labor too, you even got money after you finished your sentence. Not so bad tbqh.

So you'd rather have criminals rotting in a cell doing nothing useful and cost the society fortunes? Additionally, doing useful labor may be contributing to their reintegration into society. What do you think it's going to be better for reintegration, letting somebody sit in a room for 24 hours every day or having somebody building a greenhouse on a collective farm?

The Soviet prison system was one of the most progressive ones of its time.

Prisons and firing squads for reactionaries? Yes.

Detainment for criminals (murderers, thieves, etc)? Yes, but it should not resemble capitalist prisons. Criminal sentences will be much lighter or done away with in many cases (decriminalize drug use, decriminalize theft for subsistence, etc), and the remaining system should be focused on maximum rehabilitation and social inclusion.

Detainee labor? Ideally, detainees would be able to participate fully in the economy, just as temporary exiles. They should be allowed the same product of their labor as any other worker, as well as the maximum possible access to the same luxuries and social support (in many cases more as needed for their rehabilitation), as well as community and family integration.

GULAG-style forced prison labor for punitive purposes? Definitely not. Totally needless in today's age of automation, on top of being disgusting to Marxists.

Necessary? No
Desirable? Fuck yeah

Where the fuck do you draw the line? Sounds like an emotional argument mostly because Russia was cold and shit and in out ideal communist society the sun would shine every day and prisoners would be helping out a grandma in their garden work.

I actually agree but in the United States it's often seen as pretty racist and the slavery comparison comes from the extremely large african american population behind bars. But if we end the war on drugs AND end capitalism than it doesn't really bother me as much since the racial aspect will be largely done away with

Don't force prisoners to work, just like you aren't forcing any workers to work in communism. And the key point, the detainees should get their share of their labor value, same as the other workers. Meaning they get to afford good food, housing decorations, entertainment, etc. as much as possible within the bounds of their detainment. They should not be a net drain on society (wasting their lives bored in their cells, accomplishing nothing and taking up resources), and society should not be a drain on them (living in spartan conditions, eating disgusting cafeteria food, working 12hr days on the roadside for a pack of cigarettes).

I am talking about maximum participation in the confines of their detainment. Their free movement will be restricted. They can't just go out and interact with whoever they please. But sure, if they're not a dangerous criminal, it would be great if they participated in community work with "grandmas."

Existing is counter-revolutionary if you are Sam Harris.

I think the keyword in the section on detainee labor is "able to participate" rather than "must participate." In the case of what he was describing, it might be the difference between "work or you don't eat" and "work and you'll have time shaved off your sentence."

Sentence reduction should be a holistic thing, not based on one thing that way. In (lower stage) communism, you will have a basic living guarantee, but "he who does not work, neither shall he buy anime figurines." Basically, if there is no evidence you are disabled (mentally or physically) and you are still choosing not to clock in your allotted 10-20hrs/wk, you don't get luxury or access to much of society. Same for detainees. They work for their luxuries and hobbies same as anyone else, provided they aren't disabled.

alsot the work should be limited to public service projects, not producing anything for profit, (if applies in society)

violent crime would be resolved through restorative justice and counter-revolutionary activities would be resolved with struggle sessions and similar things.

you need dissent to keep you accountable to the people; gulags prevent this so they're a bad idea

there are of course a bunch of ideologies that don't actually improve things but you can stop them without removing civil liberties

liberals: laugh at them and point out all they want to do is once more exploit the workers for no reason whatsoever
idpollers of all stripes: self-interest of the idpol target (don't want to be shat on), self-interest of the collective (no need to be shat on), and patriotic interest of the collective (don't want to shit on countrymen)
imperialists: point out immense cost, duty to be a good neighbor
anarchists: point out that both the massive public service and research initiatives you're doing and the safety net you're providing countrymen who can't work for reasons wouldn't work without the exploitation you're doing

good post

this is obviously irrelevant in communism.

bump for interest

Gulags aren't some nebulous, ominous thing that is the hallmark of an oppressive society. It's literally just a prison that involves forced labour, which literally every country in the world had in the 30s, and many still have today.

So would prisons be necessary? Yes, of course they would be.

I like how the option is shot or gulag, with no "you're found not guilty" possibility.

okay so we shouldn't through people in gulags for merely dissenting, but picture this
we realistically can do 2 things, 1) shoot him
2) send him to some sort of imprisonment
tldr i think imprisonment should only be used for violent counter rev activity and major crimes

It's not authoritarian to restrain someone you caught with a bomb trying to blow you up.

Trotsky was right about one thing and that would the need to be in a constant state of war against capitalism. Internal resistance would be punished with forced labor on the front lines and use in suicide missions (failure or betrayal would result their families being punished in their stead.) If they survived until the end of the global war against capitalist they would be permitted to return to society.

The gualag will not hold the smartest creatures on earth. To do so, you must break their will to live and strip their humanity from them.

Then, you have become the porky. Yes you, gualag administrator. For that is what porky has done - turned the world into a gualag.

i left that out but obviously that option would exist

yes it is and i think commies should just stomach that and prepare for the day of the rope.

otherwise you will just end up in prison yourself. fascists are brutal and i don't care if they end up in a commie's gulag. they know what they're doing, and if they want to keep doing it and jeopardize my life and those i care about then good fucking riddance.

this is kind of the funny response that i always got on reddit and i think it is still funny.

at what point do you just cut your losses and send them to prison or have them shot by one of the officers ? there are some people that won't be 'reformed' and will just keep fucking up society. just like they do now. i don't think any ideology is capable of 'fixing' some people. some people are just fucked beyond repair, sorry to say but it seems true to me.

bump