Any argument against labour vouchers?

of course they don't abolish law of value, but they are a pretty good alternative to money until we reach absolute automation of work.

i mean, it's way better than a keynesian boureaucratic state…

???

I dont think anybody here is against labour vouchers unless they are delusional "communism will happen instantly".

Not neccecary, we just need to reach post-scarcity for enough commodities and enough automation that all the labour can be done voluntarily and the remaining scarce commodities (luxery goods) can be rationed.

Ohhh, ok. Wew, almost broke a sweat there, we just have to reach post scarcity.

Scarcity and finiteness arent the same.

post scarcity= absolute automation of work in the worst scenario, when people hate to work.

also tito established labour vouchers

They do.

i'm breaking so little sweats thanks to this thread!

Titoism doesnt have labour vouchers, and they existed way before tito ever supposedly "established" them

How do you keep labour vouchers from becoming scrip for the state?

Scrip as in the old company-town tactic of owning the houses and grocery store. Instead of paying the workers money, they paid them in scrip, which went to company-owned rent and food.

What % of your labour is converted into labour vouchers, what will be given to you as hard cash (to be spent on luxuries, saved, or given to charity)?

Without an idea on how to best balance the workers need for their work to be used for things that matter to them individually they will still be alienated from their work. You can buy a kg of rice with a labour voucher, can you buy a fast food meal? Do charities take labour vouchers? What is the value of a labour voucher I hide under my mattress for six months?

They are not an alternative to money you spastic retard, they are money. They're just a special kind of money that is significantly less useful then the currency people trade with today.

Cool it buddy

If the state is truly controlled by the workers then all industry is owned by the workers collectively, so it does become a "scrip" for society.

All of it. Labour vouchers are also spend on luxeries, they can be saved over time, and charity won't be neccecary in a society where the people are taken care of. If you want to allocate more resources to sad eyed puppies or cancer research, you make sure that happens during the democratic planning.

Nobody is going to appoint people to positions, they apply themselves.

Yes. Why not?

The labour vouchers value you still have from 6 months ago is still worth whatever labour time you put into it, and since a socialist society aims to decrease SNLT, it should increase in value slowly over time.


Except it is more usefull to society. It cannot be used to speculate, which is a useless parasitic activity, it cannot be used as capital, which is what socialism is against.

It can be used to buy stuff, it can be saved for expensive purchases. That is the only thing money is usefull for if youre not a rich swine.

labour vouchers don't circulate moron.

It doesn't have to circulate to be money you retard. Look up the three functions of money: Unit of Account, Medium of Exchange, Storage of Value.

It requires no explanation how a labor voucher is a unit of account or a storage of value. The only thing that is murky is the medium of exchange principle… But once you understand the abstraction then you see how labor vouchers are a medium of exchange as well.

Vouchers work as a medium of exchange in an aggregate. A laborer produces something of a deemed quality of value in which he is given a labor voucher for his efforts. He trades said voucher for whatever bullshit goods he wants.

Now take away the abstraction. The laborer is simply trading his labor time for goods though this labor voucher system. Medium of exchange.

The only thing you're doing is re-inventing money in a less useful form that it currently exists in. Congrats.

m-c-m' doesn't apply which is what matter anyways

It is more usefull for a socialist society you dumbfuck. More features doesnt mean it is better, sometimes how something limits your abilities makes it better.

Less useful for whom?

Factoring out the circulation of money and use in things like investment in capital and speculation is what gave Mises and his economic calculation argument merit.

The only thing you're doing is giving yourself less ability to sufficiently respond to Mises with this voucher system.

Just answer the question: Less useful for whom?

I gave you the answer. Do you really need me to hold your hand and walk you through it too?

The answer is really simple… It's better for you. This labor voucher system only strengthens the arguments your detractors use against you.

You want to start a social revolution? You might want to start by not sabotaging your own ideology by making it less tenable then it was before… Just a thought.

It's money that any idiot with a 40 dollar inkject printer can print. Unless you have a centralized mint, at which you just created an all powerful state capitalist government. Congrats.

Yes I do. I do not understand what you mean. I do not invest my money in anything, as I don't have enough. Nor is anybody in my family in that position. Nor do I see myself in that position in the future. So how could labour vouchers be less useful for me?

labour vouchers>energy credits>nothing

Or labour vouchers>nothing

Or just >nothing

There are some problems with it. I think Marx was right in spirit when he suggested them but it's a little outdated now.

- If you plan the entire economy in detail and establish production for use, money as a compensation for your labor becomes virtually the same as a labor voucher in function. The only difference would be that money I still transferable, but as long as business is controlled, this is actually a good thing, see next point

- It's oppressive for housewives and family member doing unpaid domestic labor. With labor vouchers, only the breadwinner of the family would be allowed to purchase stuff. Circulating value within a household should be a prerogative of the family unit

- Retired people, students and those unable to work need to be handed out labor vouchers as well, which means additional bureaucracy

- A black market would be established with foreign money

- It doesn't account for more demanding labor. As some labor requires either more physical effort or consistent mental concentration, it should be differently rewarded, otherwise there will be no incentive

- It doesn't account for artists or performers, or at least, very very badly

- How are you even going to control non-transferability? Customize every single labor voucher for their respective owner? Have your retina scanned when you purchase a bag of chips? Absolutely a pain in the arse

I'm sorry, but labor vouchers are not only inefficient and p r o b l e m a t i c, their merits are completely underwhelming compared to a classical, centrally planned money economy. And don't tell me that money is the apex of the law of value - money only becomes a self-perpetuating system within commodity fetishism as long as their is production for exchange, under production for use it changes in character, transforms into some enhanced form of an exchange medium, similar as it was in pre-capitalist times (feudalism and slavehoder society both has money). There is also absence of debt and inflation in a centrally planned economy.

they are just money. Instead of going Money>Labour Vouchers>Moneyless we could just go Money>Moneyless.as soon as the technology allows us.

Labor vouchers are a tool with benefits and drawbacks. They're neither good nor bad on their own. It's the context and execution that matters the most here. When trying to transition from market capitalism at first they are useful because the infrastructure and ideology is based on exchange. As data gets collected on people's needs and production can be planned more efficiently, labor vouchers lose their utility and would become obsolete. In the current year, labor vouchers would become obsolete faster because computer technology could be rapidly deployed to monitor people's needs and adjust production and distribution accordingly. Hell, for a lot of things we are already in post-scarcity (food for instance), the problem is just one of distribution.

prices in a labour voucher system would still exist, as they will emerge from the differences in difficulty of the jobs, in fact economic calculation would be much more efficient without private property (abolish private property is needed to establish a labour voucher system)

no


these are pretty good arguments, but they will be eventually solved once


you truly are a black flag

Jacque Fresco, is that you?

unironically

Here's Marx on the subject a few decades after he first hypothesized them in Capital vol. 2 (part 3, chapter 18, 1), :

check mate you dumb cuck

Doesn't it? I mean in an economy based on non-transferable currency i don't see how there can possibly be production for exchange.

law of value = value is proportional to labour
which is the sole definition of labour voucher

making money through property and speculation is what's impossible to do under a labour voucher system (m-cm' doesn't apply)

If the Material conditions for money still exist, money will arise, no matter how unofficial and illegal it it perceived to be.

Checkmate what? Marx was wrong you philistine. It does not need to circulate to be money… We've already covered that. Instead of running to Marx and hoping some dude who has been dead in the ground for over 100 years you could think for yourself…

Hmm. May I ask how you and your parents obtain your income?

Sure. My dad worked in construction for 20 some years and has been driving truck for close to 10 now. My mom works in accounting. I've worked shitty retail jobs until I went off to school. Graduated and got a job an office job handling paperwork. Now, I'm looking to head back to school.

You have the three functions of money and labor vouchers hit on all three. Being a retard and saying irrelevant or stupid shit doesn't change that.

So what's your problem? What is it that you want to do that labour vouchers won't let you do?

You can only have something like labour vouchers (yes, something like: there are many alternative options, Marx acknowledges this and only mentions labour vouchers as one practical example) on the very condition that there is no more value production.

Read Marx and obtain an understanding of the genesis of the value form pls thanks.

saving thread from Holla Forumsyp raid

My enemas are pretty simple. I am a FFer so I want and need a deep, total cleanout. I want my ass clean for 12 hours if need be.
use a fleet enema bottle. Just my preference. I use the larger size, there is a very small fleet enema that can be used but it requires several more bottles shot up my ass. The larger size 5oz is quicker. I shoot 4 of those up my ass. I then get down on all 4's. I then drop down on my shoulders while keeping my ass high in the air and let that water run deep in my colon. Trust me, this will take practice as you will have the major urge to release it.
For the sake of keeping your bathroom floor clean, STAY NEAR YOUR TOILET! You will have a major urge to release but it will subside if you can hold it. I then stand up and shoot 4 more(another 20oz) of water up me and yes it gets really hard to hold it in but I once again get down on my shoulders, ass up and let that water run deep in my colon.
By that point I am SO FUCKING ready to release. It feels so good to plop down on the toilet and let that eruption go from my ass. I feel like it cleanses my soul!
I gently push all the water out. BUT IN NO WAY AM I FULLY CLEANED OUT YET. The worst has yet to come out and needs to be lured out. That nasty shitty water that if not cleaned out will likely come out while later getting fucked.
Inserting a dildo makes quick work of luring out all of that shitty nastiness. As deep as you can take the dildo will lure out the water faster. Any good bottom at that point should be inserting a dildo, just for hole prep for fucking. It is a good way to open up your hole anyway, to get it ready for a good hard cock pounding.
But it also serves the purpose of luring out that final shitty water. IMO I can't get that dirty water out unless I insert a dildo for a few minutes. While I insert the dildo, I hold it in and brush my teeth, shave etc and get ready for the shower. I leave the dildo in for at least 10 minutes while brushing teeth etc. I pull it out and out comes the remaining dirty water. One more quick fleet bottle to rinse and into the shower I go.
It takes me 10 minutes to enema and push it out. Another 10 minutes or so of dildoing to get the water out while prepping, shaving etc.
I can be fully enemad, showered and out the door in under an hour and be 100% confident of my hole being clean for up to 12 hours after the enema.

post more sexi unruhe

DEATH TO COMMUNISTS

HANG THE LEFTIES ON LAMP POSTS

VICTORY TO Not SocialisM

KILL THE JEWS

1488

No wonder the left only appeals to niggers, the rest of the world thinks you're insanely retarded.

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Sauce?