/venus/

explain

I fell for the everything within the state, nothing against the state meme. I thought the only way to achieve this utopia was to nationalise everything and create a totalitarian state.

That is the best way to achieve utopia, yes.
It is a shame that you regressed to a trot.

We have different qualifications for what constitutes utopia.

You fail to grasp the Form of Utopia.

what the fuck is even happening to this thread?

isn't fresco anti state though? Pretty sure he said his society would be stateless.

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He was just another utopian socialist who based rejected Marxism in favour of utopianism and idealism.

Yeah but I was a 'pragmatist' not a 'utopian'.

Your obsession with hierarchies needs to stop.
We're worried about you, Howard.

it's fully automated individualist communism. people only exchange resources.

makes sense since technology makes all these things available. But that vision projects into a far far away future where everyone has access to that technology of self-sustain and easy production.
Government no longer exists because it's no longer needed for anything. Tenchnology killed it.

His projection of the future makes sense but technology still has a great leap to make before getting there.

These things are more personal ask them to him. Or look them up in his Venus Project website.

no it's not.

You failed to look at the people controlling that state. They clearly don't care about welfare, they just want to be on top of the hierarchy this has been the case with any autocrat you can think of in the last century.

Maximum centralization -> Maximum efficiency -> Maximum production -> Maximum abundance -> Maximum happiness

I do not focus on hierarchies simply for the sake of hierarchies.
A strict, ordered, society wide hierarchy is just the best way to maximize order and happiness.
My focus on hierarchies is born out of empathy derived from rule-utilitarianism.

I'm touched.

And you fail to look at the ideas and values that govern the people who control the state.

ideas about equality are almost always used to lie, to get into power. grow up.
dwelling on idealism is dwelling on spooks, ideology.
Individuals like technology are reality, technology makes independence and autonomy easier.
I don't care about you, I don't have to. I care about myself.

I had no idea he died in May. Hell, I didn't know he was so old. Fucker died at 101.

Anyways, he pretty much was a socialist in all but name. Paradise or Oblivion first opened my eyes to economic planning and automation, and reading TANS years later merged quite well.

etc. We are right at the edge of a post-scarcity society, but thanks to porky, we are unable to actually make use of it.

Agree, but you can't conflate political centralization with economic centralization.

By those that only wear beliefs as a form of camouflage.
Such lies are impossible with true fanatics.

'Muh Spooks!', 'Muh Ideology!'.
Try not to internalize the worst of Holla Forumss memes.

That depends how the technology is able to be used.
Imagine an internet that was not built upon a distributed topology for example.

This is the sort of rubbish I would expect out of a teen that had just read some garbage by Ayn Rand.
Grow up.

I consider one to be a requirement for the other.
One cannot have maximum economic centralization in a political system built upon decentralized workers councils for example.

imagine being this idealistic

I am not at all interested in maximum efficiency if it comes at the expense of my masturbating sessions.
Why do we need maximum efficiency if we are not competing against anyone?

One cannot have maximum economic centralization in a political system built upon decentralized workers councils for example.
Also agree, but what about having nation-wide direct e-democracy? or only 1 unicameral legislative body? Thats not centralized in the sense that one single person doesn't have total power, but its still central enough for planning

He was for FALC without knowing about it. He was verbally against communism but he didnt know what it was thinking it was just authoritarian centrally planned states. His ignorant denial that he was basically promoting socialism actually is useful though. He seemed pretty smart though. Too bad he died. If you watch any video where he talks to young people he is very kind to take the time to make sure people follow what he is saying and he's pretty easy to listen to him talk for hours.

lol
stop browsing the internet so much man go outside more recommended.

Why would it?

I did my best to make this as simple to follow as possible.
We need to maximize efficiency in order to maximize the production of goods/Dispensation of services.
This flood of services and goods will allow for maximum abundance of (read: effective post-scarcity), which in turn will result in a maximization of overall happiness.
The logical end goal of utilitarianism.

Oh but such a state would be competing against external forces.
First against the forces of scarcity economics, then against biology and eventually against entropy and time.

The problem is that you are then introducing the inherently damaging effects of democracy.
Sure, such a state may be centralized enough for planning in theory.
But in practice democracy (especially direct democracy) would make a task as universally important as economic planning equivalent to herding cats.

When a system effects everyone, and everyone has the ability to effect that system.
Efficiency, and especially the maximization of efficiency is simply not possible.

eh, not really. One simple vote and you make a decision. On expert issues you would have experts draw up a number of technically feasible alternatives, and people would vote on those. democracy means decision by simple majority, not endless debates and a slow political process like under liberal capitalist ""democracies""

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Sooo, with the technocratic elite being in charge of pushing us to combat "biology, entropy and time", why would they not push me twice as hard as they push themselves?

Second question; how does this technocratic society form? Basically just tankyism?

Kekistani flag?

I really like your idea user.

The right is incapable of anything original

There would not be a 'technocratic elite'.
Not more so then there is an 'elite' among the upper command of a military.
Refer to the rank chat I posted earlier.

Because everyone of working age is a tool to be used in the application of the ideology.
There is equality in a tool box, even if the job of each tool may differ.

The use of religion/philosophy to gain a support base of manpower/skills.
This base is used to further expansion, such expansion allows for the creation of a financial base.
These finances are used primarily for targeted recruitment from people in the armed forces.
Such recruitment continues until defacto control over the given nations armed forces is achieved.

Having lost control over those that give them authority, the previous government is dissolved and liquidated.
At that point sovereignty is achieved, no revolution necessary.

because he just made all that up

I have been providing detailed information on my ideology since the creation of this board.
Anyone that had been here for even a year could tell you that nothing in that post was 'made up' on the fly.
It has been apart of my ideological posting for years.

Honestly.
Rather then just shitting up the thread.
How about you do something that not black-flag asshole has done before and make a worthwhile, reasoned post.

what do you think of socialist cybernetics/cockshottism?

If I were not so committed to my ideology, I would probably be some sort of cybernetic-socialist.
Take that as you will.

And anyone who isn't is basically just a waste of energy in the eyes of The Great Ideology, so why wouldn't The Great Ideology dispose of them?

Well not disposing of the young is a given.

Not disposing of the old or infirm (specifically those injured as a result of service) helps to give people something to work towards.
When the retirement age is only 40 and comes with no reduction in spending power, I think that is quite a good tool for motivation.
Likewise not liquidating those that are disabled as a result of service ensures that people will not shy away from risk.

Maybe according to your(our) morality in present times. But with 100 years of utter subservience to the state I could see this changing.
But why does it? Sounds inefficient to me.

Not liquidating them publicly, sure. But subtle assassination by cancer rays or other delicious modern inventions.

Motivated people are hard working people.
I think being able to do pretty much whatever you want with almost unlimited resources once you hit 40 is a bigger motivator then what is offered by any supernatural religion.

People need heroes.

Maximize happiness by killing the people that slaved for you for 40 years and were finally ready to enjoy they state sanctioned happiness.

Well, one can only hope you'll be the first and last martyr of your ideology.

Just become a fucking communist already Howard. Let the state wither. We don't need it anymore.
Daddy isn't coming back.

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