I M M I G R A T I O N

It's no secret that pretty much every thread about immigration around here usually devolves into a shit-flinging contest in the span of a few posts — and we don't need no naziposter for that, we're perfectly capable of behaving like idiots all by ourselves.

So I'm starting this thread in the hope that we can have a decent leftists discussion centered around the theme of contemporary mass immigration. Just please follow these simple rules:

1) Back your claims with evidence from reputable sources when confronted
2) Be nuanced — don't write of disagreement as fascism or liberalism
2) Ignore low-quality bait from Holla Forumstards whining about shitskins

So, in order to start a conversation — I'll just ask this.

My point with this opening statement is not to defend or decry immigration nor to idolize or demonize immigrants. I simply want to discuss this hypothesis: immigration to developed countries is inevitable in a world of global inequality.

Birth rates in developed countries are decreasing (thanks to education, urbanization, family planning, lack of economic necessity, etc) and this trend is not going to revert. This results in an aging population and a shrinking workforce. Moreover, natives naturally abandon low-skilled jobs in favor of more comfortable or rewarding careers as they become more educated. That is when immigrants, looking for better prospects than what they can find in their home country, come in: They fill in the void that natives left behind. This pleases the capitalist who gets to hire mostly non-union workers who accept lower wages and worse conditions, and to which the solidarity of natives is unlikely to extend because of easily exacerbated ethnic tensions.

This phenomenon isn't new: the same happened in France straight from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution with succeeding waves of immigration (from Belgium, Italy, Germany, Poland, Algeria, etc) who all fulfilled that role — and similarly suffered from disadvantageous economic conditions and aggressive xenophobia.

Even the right-wing government of a country as historically hostile to immigration as Japan is increasingly reliant on migrant workers (from China, Brazil, Iran, etc) to deal with their demographic shift and labor shortage.

Do you think this is correct? How do you thinks recent developments like automation and climate change will play into this?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_diaspora
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_diaspora
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

White geno.cide is real

WAKE UP

If anuddah shoah is real on the cultural basis you describe it as, demographic shift, wouldn't this also be impacting their local culture as well to go from one environment to another?

And at one point is prevention of migration unrealistic and more of an infestation than migration? Not on an ethical standpoint, well somewhat, but on just creating chaos that further radicalizes people on either side of the border

Going into the future you have no answer because situations where one form of life migrates are completely unstoppable and never has there been a situation which hasn't worsened with the response you want to it, a response that quickly collapses.

The only real answer you have is neoliberalism, more of it, more foriegn relations think tanks making papers for statesman to go about talking about what to do with it, making money off the whole thing.

You have no further interest in the well being of life of other people, but you want us to selfishly care about you in particular. When you're easily manipulated and have shit ideas that just don't pan or make logical sense.

Race war is coming.

Immigration can be stopped. Every EU nation militarized their borders recently with only Italy remaining open.

Migrations can be prevented very easily especially when the migrants aren't even armed why are you leftcucks always so fucking silly? Why are you and your kike paymasters so hell bent on DESTROYING us?

We will win.

Orcs and Elves and Orcs and Elves Orcs and Elves and Orcs and Elves

This is the point you're not getting. You're dumb and even after your political movement dies in two hundred years your goals won't even exist in the public consciousness

You're wrong. Human history is a horrible social Darwinist fanfic. We will destroy you.

Yeah so why do you think you're above it and why do you think you're particularly important in the scale of human history, why does your political movement last beyond 500 years. So what are you exactly fighting for if it won't

fags

Why are you so convinced that entirety of Mena and Africa will swarm Europe and the natives won't eventually push back? What is the basis for this argument? Why does this HAVE to result in the invaders being victorious in your view?

Massive human migrations and wars are joined at the hip you seem too fucking dense to comprehend this.

Because an army displaced is still an army in place and you can't change how human demographics shift because you don't have the power to enforce politics for over a thousand years, thereby making your pet project of trying to politicize human biology pointless because it never did shit to not only combat political problems today, but at its end goal of "preserving white people" as if Europeans are an endangered species.

The point is you're not special. So if your project never actually succeeds, what are you doing other than making life shit

I'm sure as hell not going to fight so Mohammed and Mutumbo plunder my homelands and make life impossible for me. I'm not insane. Move to Sweden if you want to fight on behalf of your conquerors.

We will win.

They aren't.


*The United States

Good.

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I'm thinking if I should take a selfie of myself on this double-decker London bus fulla blacks, Muslims and Slavs just to trigger the Holla Forums cross-posters in this thread.

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Diversity🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 is a beautiful thing, m8.

I'm all for it if it gets rid of you.

You're not triggering us you're only proving us right.

My mum's white and my dad's black. I'm the victim of white genöcide!

Seeing as how you call yourself afroplasm and wave the pan African colors yes, you're a shining example of how indigenous Europeans will cease to exist if the insanity continues.

Who the fuck cares? It's just genes and a pigment of the skin

Many immigrant populations have a higher unemployment rate than the natives and we already have quite a lot of people without a job.
Most immigrants nowadays dont really fill a void, they just come because there is no political will to stop them since that would take some violent measures and total lack of regards for human rights etc..

How will you prevent this past a thousand years? If you don't then what good is your praxis if it doesn't do anything about political problems than name scapegoats? If you can't prevent something how does it become more than what it already seems, a personal identity problem and not a political one

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Black people aren't white people with black skin.

Why would I want to be a minority? Go experience some "vibrancy" first hand and get back to me.

Are you implying that some traits of their personality are dependent on their skin pigment?

Why would you want to stick to such outdated notions of identity like race?

why would you want to do that?

There will undoubtedly be cultural clashes in the first few years between the migrants and the native population, so the first priority should be to minimize those clashes as soon as possible.

Holy shit, will you just all shut the fuck up and ignore that naziposter? I started this thread with the specific intent of not letting this happen so we could have a decent discussion for a change, and y'all niggas falling hook, line and sinker for the most effortless bait I've seen in weeks.

we are 3 generations further and the clashes are still there

I hope South Park does an episode on white genöcide just to see all the Holla Forumsacks rage and declare meme Jihad on Comedy Central on Twitter. The sheer amount of butthurt that episode would cause…

"This would be the right attitude of mind: the workers of Europe ought henceforth to declare themselves as a class a human impossibility and not, as usually happens, only a somewhat harsh and inappropriate social arrangement; they ought to inaugurate within the European beehive an age of a great swarming-out such as has never been seen before, and through this act of free emigration in the grand manner to protest against the machine, against capital, and against the choice now threatening them of being compelled to become either the slave of the state or the slave of a party of disruption. Let Europe be relieved of a fourth part of its inhabitants! They and it will be all the better for it! Only in distant lands and in the undertakings of swarming trains of colonists will it really become clear how much reason and fairness, how much healthy mistrust, mother Europe has embodied in her sons sons who could no longer endure it with the dull old woman and were in danger of becoming as querulous, irritable and pleasure-seeking as she herself was. Outside of Europe the virtues of Europe will go on their wanderings with these workers; and that which was at home beginning to degenerate into dangerous illhumour and inclination for crime will, once abroad, acquire a wild beautiful naturalness and be called heroism."

t. Nietzsche off his meds again

One of the biggest problems with Marxist analysis is the total dismissal of any historical contingencies unrelated to class conflict. Marxists generally assume that because race, religion, and culture are intangible spooks and metaphysical mysteries, they may be soundly ignored with no repercussions.

That's fucking retarded. A lot of people take spooks seriously and a lot of people will kill you over them. Ignoring them entirely is a recipe for suicide. Holla Forums's general position is that immigration to Europe is not a good thing, but it's just sort of a tertiary problem of capitalism, so we shouldn't stoop to reactionary concerns and should just focus on capitalism. Because overthrowing capitalism is frankly much harder to do, Holla Forums's position is dumb. Addressing particularly deleterious side effects of capitalism in the meanwhile shouldn't be renounced by leftists as distractions from real revolution, but should rather be considered a potentially important effort to realistically improve the world rather than bitching about it in academic quarterlies or student group organized riots. Here's an outline of what is probably going to happen, in large part because the left is too individually afraid to agree with the right on anything whatever:

Thanks to several demographic trends, youth in European countries will be increasingly Muslim. A small minority of these second generation immigrants will grow up, get radicalized by the internet, and commit terrorist attacks. Although on balance a fairly minor issue, the press will report on it almost constantly, and the far right will grow at knots by complaining about terrorism and feeding on demographic anxiety while liberals continue to plead that Islamic terrorism is unrelated to Islam. Socialists intentionally ignoring these issues will probably make socialism less attractive to people. In response to terrorism, individual liberties will degrade and European democracies will become racially traumatized police states. A few countries will likely go fascist in this process, maybe the United States will invade them, maybe there will be a big war over it. If demographic trends don't prompt political address, or conservative Muslims outbreed everybody, European countries may become blatantly Islamist, resulting in significant diaspora and plenty of people left homeless in the world.

All of that because porkies want labor and the left fell for knee jerk humanitarian propaganda. There are worse fates than agreeing with reactionaries on something.

Stopped reading right there, there is a distinct difference between Marxist analysis of ideology and Stirner's. Marx called religion,culture and other beliefs rooted in the past as social relations. Ideology is something quite different in Marxist analysis as a false of positing, or a false manifestation of the world that blurs economic relations and the real appearance of political economy.

I agree with the rest of your paragraph though it is important to realise that for the left, that one should recognise that Muslims are mostly proles as well, and are not inherently antagonistic to an anti-hegemonic struggle (in fact the beginning of the Arab spring is testament to that). Without of course congratulating the neoliberal world order uprooting people and making us beleive this globalist, cosmopolitan movement of labor is inevitable and desirable in the name of "growth"

I was using misleading terminology, but either way Marxists tend to be overly dismissive of any social relations which could obscure class conflict or undermine worker solidarity, when those social relations can be powerful forces with important consequences. Culture and religion have serious ramifications, if you're above meaningfully addressing them then somebody else will.

Haven't you got anything better to do than shill for your own fucking "socialists are afraid of agreeing with right-wingers" nonsense at every last occasion? What you just regurgitated is par of the course in any Holla Forums thread dealing with immigration and I don't know what made you think you were so special.

was Nietzche on his meds ever though?

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Is this global warming stuff?

This isn't concerning when I have nothing to compare it too. Honestly, it isn't concerning at all, because I have no idea where it comes from and because I live in a country capable of investing in food security.

Climate scientists in general have every incentive to be as apocalyptic as possible, it's what gets them funding. Florida is not yet underwater, contrary to claims twenty years ago. Clearly global warming isn't good, but every time somebody has tried to convince me it would kill everybody they were using garbage methodology or blatantly flawed analysis. Temperatures going up a little bit is almost definitely not going to be straightforwardly negative everywhere, at least for human purposes.


It's not that special. It just consistently makes a lot of anarchists here buttmad, and people frequently disagree with it for the same stupid reasons they disagree with nationalism generally.

COMING OUT OF MY CAGE AND IVE BEEN DOING JUST FINE

There will be no apocalypse. A couple tens of millions years ago Antarctica was outside the south polar circle, some significant part of the currently habitable world was underwater, an none of the dinosaurs gave a shit.

Even in the event of an actual apocalypse, like a global nuclear war on an asteroid impact, the ecosystems around geothermal vents in the deep ocean rifts wouldn't even notice.

Seriously, it's all for the sole benefit of humans, especially those that live not too far from the sea level.

HOW MANY THREADS FFS

I'm going to adopt a name that just responds to this furry with pictures of old bears in retirement if he keeps this shit up

GOTTA GOTTA BE DOWN BECAUSE I WANT IT ALL.

Like skilled middle class Venezuelans to everywhere else?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_diaspora
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_diaspora

(note: most Venezuelans in Colombia, Syria, Portugal and Italy are there because they got their citizenship for those countries by descent)

It's obviously not inevitable, governments just choose to allow it, whether it is to please big business, pay for elder pensions, or "atone" for past wrongdoings (Germany).

Obviously, automation will make more workers superfluous and climate change will make more people migrate to regions that are not flooded.

Oh?

anuddah shoah fear is amazing because it's led to a community where only 1% of the people actually have white kids and the other 99% just post

That's not the point you fucking retard.

I should say to be precise that successful immigration is not inevitable.

It's inevitable that human demographics are going to shrink since we set ourselves up like this. I don't really care if it takes 200, 500 years. It's going to happen, panic about it happening right now like whites are an endangered species, that fear of immigration, is pointless is my point.

Because how long are you going to prepare in advance to keep that up. 500 years before here we still had monarchs.

What makes white nationalists think they can manage to keep things in check that long. Genocide?

The Germans tried it before. I wouldn't put anything past the people who gave us the gas chamber.

Just because something is inevitable does not mean you have to let it happen in your lifetime. Human extinction is inevitable, that does not make human extinction a neutral outcome.

That user is at least right that a state could stop most immigration for quite some time, although it would require totalitarian measures and require either directly addressing the fertility problem or killing a bunch of elderly people. States don't last forever though, and neither do their immigration or fertility policies. Germany will disappear, white people will disappear, black people will disappear, people will disappear.

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Human extinction and demographic shift isn't equitable politically, and you shouldn't argue that it's similar.

The only sensible argument against immigration I could come up with is the fact that many underdeveloped countries suffer from brain drain cause the few college/university educated people they put out emigrate to other countries.
Ofcourse, a simple solution would be two-way immigration. Start sending teachers instead of mercenaries to poor countries.

only hardline ethno-nationalists are extremely opposed to all forms of immigration. most nationalists just don't want to live around blacks or Muslims.