Socialist Economy is the only way forward - You win

We can agree but in your eyes what redeems them?

kys my man

I hold the belief that all three of the things you have pinpointed are entities/ideas inherent connection to class and are therefore neutral subjects that can be used by any given class.

In one example, a business owner can say "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" for a theological justification for the way he runs his business and his extraction of wealth from the worker's labor.

But at the same time a worker can say "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" as a justification for his belief that he is entitled to the value of his labor and that the business owner is actually dealing unjustly by taking something that doesn't belong to him: the surplus value of the worker's labor.

If that is the case, which I believe it is, things like nationalism and religion are neutral entities in the midst of class warfare and that while historically all three have been used by the bourgeoisie this is only because the bourgeoisie have the upper hand in a capitalist society and thus can utilize ALL institutes far more effectively than the proletariat have been able too through the promise of capital gains.

that have no inherent connection*

We can also agree on that but what purpose have these ideologies is still what separate us, real leftists believe that we should get rid of all ideologies, ideology here meaning immaterial things while you just want to presuppose them.

I've been trying to write a response but I'm afraid I'll be taking you out of context. What do you mean by "purpose"?

To me the concept of "purpose in the belief of God" is extremely odd because I don't believe in God to fulfill any purpose (not consciously at least) but instead I believe in God because I've accepted the testimony of the apostles on the life and death and resurrection of Christ in the same way a person may accept any historical testimony.

You have unlocked a new shitposting flag : NAZBOL

I always wonder how someone who views the world through critical materialist lenses still clings to spooky things such as race, you do realize racism is quite counter revolutionary

ah heck yeah

Well, religious people will normally talk about how religion gives people a moral compass, an objective in life or an understanding of the world. Those could be considerate purposes

Also I should correct my last message to: while you just want to *repurpose them.

GANG

I suppose that Christianity does have those things but I know I myself didn't go to Christianity in search of these things but instead found myself agreeing with the scripture after reading it and studying the history of the church.

...

Anarchist here, I think OP's a fine guy so long as he doesn't sperg about race all the time. Good on him for making inroads to leftism.
All of you beating on him for holding onto spooks are pointless meanies and not too unlike the SJWs who Holla Forums has traditionally distanced itself from.

...

I grew tired of Holla Forums after ancaps and libertarians became the main populace. Also most people who claimed to be Not Socialists there hadn't read some of the most basic books about it.

holy shit the nazi is reading. WE DID IT GUYS.

What are you doing?

I've been accepted into the nazbol gang, please correct yourself and read the lore.

This is incompatible with socialism, for it supersedes class struggle with class collaboration.

As in, political Christianity? Because we don't care what religious beliefs you subscribe to in private.

This is tautological.

In what way do you find it important?

nah ill wait for the anime

I dont think capital has to be taken with unnecessary force or threats. The bourgeois already pay taxes so they already give part of things up and most the do is look for legal loopholes. If they do something illegal they do still get punished once caught. Outlaw lobbying to cripple their power influence pass it off as a populist move. Switch from first past the post voting to ranked instant runoff voting and proportional representation voting. Do away with gerrymandering. Cut away special rights they get like bailouts which should be easier to pass because Libertarians are against bailouts then you slip in something in there that a bailout will convert a business to a co-op and a bank to a credit union to keep peoples jobs but allow the failed business owner to be at loss. In the case of the US remove personhood of corporations so capitalists will be held more liable for their actions again pass it off as populist. Ban special interests from government positions that control their business. At this point you create a progressive corporate tax but it only applies to private business the petite bourgeois outnumber the bourgeois and conservatives fetishize small business. This will give the biggest advantage to co-opss and whatnot. Going beyond this point is where it gets tricky but at this point over time you will see a change wide spread.

I'd watch a Nazbol Gang anime tbh.

Ok but tools are more useful in the hands of the ruling class than in the hands of the working class. So if you'e arguing from a perspective of practicality than it's still impractical to hold onto those ideas if your goal is socialism

If you're arguing from a position of genuine belief in all those principles that's a separate discussion but you haven't really delved into why you believe in nationalism or christianity or race realism; or more importantly why they're important axioms to build your ideology upon

lose this and the rest of spooks will follow

Look, I used to be a socdem like you. In fact, if I had lived in '60s America, I might have even voted for Nixon simply because he would have kept things steady. Now, however, there's no excuse to be one. Starting under Carter, neoliberalism decisively proved Marx's M-C-M' loop correct, that capitalism could not be contained permanently. It has to be destroyed. Don't be a Rosa-killing succdem. They might have already doomed humanity through climate change and the eradication or domestication of the radical left in general.

Welcome comrade.

bravo, nazi. bravo.

Read Bookchin–

Were We Wrong?
Is it possible that the Left has been wrong about capitalist development and revolutionary change? Is it possible that 20th-century capitalism is not “moribund;” that the Russian Revolution did not usher in an “era of wars and revolutions,” as predicted by Lenin; that capitalism does not unfold according to an “immanent” dialectic in which lie the “seeds” of its own destruction? Could it be that we are in a ceaseless “ascending phase” of capitalism?

libcom.org/library/were-we-wrong-murray-bookchin

How is this incompatible with socialism. Socialism is completely compatible with all these thinks. Read some pre-MArx theory.

NAZBOL GANG

Oh boy.

Well people say socialism is incompatible with nationalism however there wrong.

based civic nationalism is the only way

Race nationalism involves the suppression of a lower class based on who they were born to. This is stratification.

Religion divides people based on the type of god they believe in, this is also stratification.

Didn't you read? It supersedes class struggle with class collaboration.

No, socialism isn't compatible with nationalism, racism or religious conservatism no matter how hard you shill for it.

Like who? Utopian socialists? I have. They're severely flawed and obviously outdated.

Then read Mutual Aid to under stand the true nature of evolution and Debt The First 5000 Years to understand the true nature of cash

Rosa was a SocDem. SocDems just changed from being Democratic Socialists with a transition period to supporters of Post-Keynesian economics without serious intent to go further.

If most capital and means of production is collectivised and private business is limited it wont really matter because you no longer are forced to be exploited from all the choices you will have. Capitalism will choke out and die after you reach that tuning point.

Tbh I think both nationalism (presuming its civic) and religion (specifically liberation theology) can be used to strengthen a socialist movement. Gramsci's hallmark of a successful organic ideology is its ability to provide different types of appeal to different types of people. Having a socialism with progressive Christian and civic nationalist elements is a good way to mobilize a broad swath of the population, this is actually what a lot of Latin Americas successful left movements have looked like.

Racialism is pure cancer though, even if you believe in race """realism""" you should realize how easy it is for the elite to manipulate racialist sentiments as a divide and conquer strategy.

Thoughts on ethno vs. civic nationalism OP?

==ALSO YOU NAZBOL GANG NOW NIGGA==

The confusion is they are using the Marxian definition of Socialism/Communism while you are using the broader definition.

shit meme dumbass

IT'S A NAZBOL GODS MIRACLE

Hey Nazbol OP, why do you think race is important? (Don't kill me for opening this discussion leftypol plz)

Haha, what? The SPD ordered the Freikorps to put down the Novemberrevolution (spearheaded by the Spartakusbund) and murder her. Socdem in the sense of the RSDLP? Words meant different things back then.
I shiggy diggy
Read Marx or you'll remain stuck in your cruel, masochistic cycle forever without knowing left from right and up from down.

I still haven't seen a convincing argument here for why nationalism can't be civic. Mussolini was dismissive of race and was only forced to act as if he weren't to acquiesce to Hitler's autism.

Well not all socialists are Marxists. To be honest the utopian socialists were much better than Marx.

i guess because no one has devoted much time to debunking something so fucking stupid
i cyr evry tiem ;~:

Civic nationalism is a think. Many socialists in history were civic nationalists. Such as Ho Chi Minh.

...

Social democracy is not the same thing as democratic socialism.

Rosa was a revolutionary communist.

In fact, Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist first and a "socialist" second. He admitted as much himself.

pic related
I'm not even a nationalist (I'm an anarchist) - I'm just saying what I see in front of me. I have other criticisms of nationalism in general (it's not as if you have anything more in common with a person from the same province/state who you don't know than with a person from another country, it's spooky, etc.), but I don't see an intrinsically racial element. Get over your emotions (NATIONALISM BAD DONT TALK ABOUT IT REEEEEEEEEEE) and engage with the topic or don't say anything.

Stop being mean to OP, I think the right wing stuff is spooky but I support you bring able to live with your nuclear family and trad waifu in peace if you respect me too. I'm glad you have seen past the porky bullshit, maybe one day we will be free.

meant to post this pic

These videos should get posted every time someone brings up race.

Part 1 youtube.com/watch?v=teyvcs2S4mI
Part 2 youtube.com/watch?v=vVmj8dDx9yY