Lol just pull yourself up by the bootstraps

What? Trade school is cheap and all the current trade guys retiring en masse so now is actually the best time to take a trade job. There is an actual skills gap occuring in trade jobs right now due to almost none of the current generation being interested in them with everyone trying to instead go to college for stem, liberal art, or business related degrees. Advocating for a socialist society shouldn't mean you should have no job and starve, thats counter-productive.

Jobs are a resource if every single person in america became bill gates many people would still be in working class positions not millionaires.

bump to stop thread genocide.

Trade school is the new upward mobility meme that neoliberals are pushing now that going to college has been shown to be a farce.

Mark my words porky will modularize all but a handful of trades soon and make all trades unskilled work just like they did with cooking and a whole slew of other industries

No one is pushing for trade despite the huge demand for them especially in trained maintenance (which Marx actually predicted) and CAD suprisingly enough, in fact companies along the East Coast are actually demanding for more mechanics (mostly aircraft), precision machiners, and welders. Paradoxically enough however, state governments here are shutting down all the trade schools (despite corporate outcry) to pay for other things, especially in CT where deficit problems involving state pensions, misspending, and the Hartford debt crisis have led to an approaching closure of some of the last remaining trade schools here (despite them deciding to keep UConns budget the same somwhere around the millions with calls to increase it, but hey its their shining little baby inside a capital rampent in crime and homelessness, can't go addressing that now can we :^) The only relatively accessable aircraft maintenance programs around the area left after the closures will be in Mass (which are really expensive) and Florida, which really isn't close at all.

I don't buy it. Everyone would be hopping on the trade school gravy train if that were the case.

No, people fall for the college meme and go into debt instead, since people who don't go to college are perceived as being stupid.

In my option every high school student should have to learn at least learn some basic mechanics.

School is a businesses user, you should know this by now. People take on the debt because they are told "It will be worth it" and the majority end up in a field they may have no actual interest in or are simply bad at.

Trades still require you to usually be exploited in some capacity. They also are very demanding physically and usually come with a high rate of bodily harm or death.
And the result of that is that you can at best join the middle class but don't expect to be able to easily support a family. So yeah you can do all that while a capitalist sits on his ass and makes your month's wage in an hour with no possible way for you to get any higher.

So what exactly is the argument here?

KEK

Anyway,
This is 2017 AKA 1933 V2.0 and 1950s arguments only benefit bourgies.

Production is being done in those places but you would have to be blind and deaf not to see the demand (admittedly spooked on "American Quality" and nationalism as well as connections to other American based companies and an actual inability to move their labor to China) for precision machining and maintenance along the east coast. CAD machines still need to be operated, maintenance on aircraft is at an all time high, and welders and plumbers are paid well for their work (generally) as they are usually able to dictate their pay to a degree.

No one is saying your not being exploited, that's why we unionize. Regulations and more efficient machinery mostly dealt with the bodily harm part and are now less demanding physically (still difficult, not arguing that)

I'm not trying to justify how things are but when you live in a capitalist society and you lack the funds to go to college your choices become
A) Take a loan
B) Work retail and other minimum wage jobs
C) Work a trade and make enough to support your family
D) Have no job

This is like arguing "Why do you bother getting X better paying job working class user, it only benefits the bourgies and could go away eventually like all outsourced jobs" ignoring that its in my rational self interest not be in debt and have a job that could eventually pay for me to actually go to college if I wanted. There is a demand and were taking it, thats all there is too it.

So.. everyone becomes one of the jobs that hire.. it gets overflooded… reserve army of labor all over again…

I wander why the free market doesn't work…

It's almost like I stated that we currently live in a capitalist society and have to survive in it currently as it is and follow where the demand is. I have no doubts about the problems of capitalism, but to say we shouldn't follow where the money is more or less asking for us live poor. The reality is that socialism isn't coming any time soon, either due to commodification,
concessions, or general spooks. We can either survive and live relatively well or live on minimum wage, which would you prefer? For now all we can do is alleviate the burden on the working class.

I'm in the trades and there is still a lot of bodily risk depending on where you go into. But yeah I'm obviously not arguing with you but it seems like op was saying the argument was some kind of justification of capitalism like "if you work hard in the trades then you'll be successful like ceos it's all just a matter of effort."

Trades are no longer unionised and the hours are shit.

I was thinking about becoming a CNC machinist but the pay is $18 per hour, with 10 hour shifts 5 days per week.
Even welders are now getting jobs at UPS.

Fuck the modern left and their shift to idpol instead of class struggle.

Where do you live? $18 is better then minimum in my book and here overtime is double with holidays triple, there is full health benefits, and both request-able and given days off as well as a union. Welders are mostly all moving to oil rigs and other assembly work tbh.

nobody is arguing that the wages system or markets are a good idea. But construction trades are a better living than most.

Aren't trade school jobs most likely to get automated, moved overseas or taken over by immigrants willing to pay for less?
I went to a Gymnasium so I could directly go to university, is college that much of a meme?

I'm a carpenter, 23y/o and live better than most of my friends and cousins who went to college. Granted they might make more money in the long term but I don't really give a fuck about having a nice house or car or whatever, and I like working with my hands.

Got into it by working as a day laborer doing demo and picking up trash and shit, contractor at a job I was on liked the cut of my jib and offered to hire me full time and teach me the trade.

Basically what I'm saying is college is for jews and women. As a leftist I'd much rather spend my days cutting up with mexicans and rednecks than bougie paper job fags.

For comparison I make $20/hr but could probably make ~25-30 at a larger company.

Well, the nice thing also about taking a trade (currently in aircraft maintenance) is that I don't have to to shackle myself with in student loan debt if I want to eventually go to college. I can plan for what I want to do, apply for a cheaper college, and use the money I've saved up to get a degree if I want to. At least that way I have a skill under my belt to fall back to if nothing pans out or to support myself while I take more flexible college courses that I'm not being rushed through.

Nice bait pol.
Anyway, the US educational system is shit.
Plus, you got lucky and so would everyone, right?
Also, you COULD .. PROBABLY .. or you'll make less cause monpolies lower your wage once corporations take over.

wtf there's literally a line around the block every fucking day trying to get into trade schools in NYC. Hope you're related to someone, because they literally have a lower acceptance rate than Yale.

No you're right I got very lucky, but it's not like luck isn't a huge factor even with a degree. I'm just saying this notion that you need one to make any kind of living is bogus. So many millenials have been left holding the bag with tens of thousands in debt and no relief in sight, it just chaps my ass to see this idea that college is necessary still being propagated.

Also I think too much "left" discourse has been focused around student debt (looking at you bernie), as if there are no young workers who could be evangelized to.

I mean, I'm in CT and near MA and there is a huge demand here. Some companies are even pulling kids to head out west or south. It doesn't surprise me that such a densely populated city like New York has a problem with trade schools getting flooded, how property is organized and owned in NYC is a complete mess

Got cut off, sorry. Meant to finish by saying how the local socioeconomic factors in NYC also puts it in a position where most people will take what schooling and jobs they can get to pay the rent. Here its a bit different, trade schools have a relatively low amount of kids applying for them despite demand and land is less sparse meaning opening a new one doesn't cost the absurd amount it would in NYC given how property costs are ridiculous due to a variety of issues.

what this guy said pretty much
you need to have some aptitude for the work in order to stay in jobs. for a lot of us, it's a waste of time and money.

jeez, I'm conflicted as fuck now

everything i've read points to drafters becoming obsolete would you like to clarify?

In reality it will depend on A) Where you live B) Your union or lack of one C) If you actually have the mindset or interest in doing it

Most of the other stuff relates to most jobs, of course learning it when your young will give you an advantage and every place has slimy people. The network thing is honestly when you have those few dirty unions that pop up every so often that go full seniority, protect people who never work, and push those entering out of the workplace for those they know. Its a problem, was huge before in Boston. The "Trade is super-easy to learn meme" needs to die though, schooling is cheaper but it isn't a breeze. You still need to move through it like you would a college.

Most CAD operators don't really draft (blue dye and scribing are mostly restricted to local family shops that do custom jobs), they mostly operate the machinery, make adjustments, and plot points as necessary on CNC machines. Understand I'm talking from a CT and MA perspective, might be different elsewhere.

listen, college right now is a gamble, a gamble that most of us cant afford to take right now. Trade school/Apprenticeship is currently the best alternative for us.

t. in tertiary education

Holla Forums are mostly NEETs. This thread is bait.

i'm in nh, the southern part of our state is p much massachusetts. i knew that cad was a big part of manufacturing but i assumed there was an entire relevant skillset to be learned (ie you can't just walk into a precision machining job with a revit certificate).

some guy in my class was telling me that people drop out a lot before getting their ticket. even getting a union apprenticeship is competitive: i assume they typically screen you for some modicum of mechanical ability. i feel like succeeding in a trade requires the same degree of talent as succeeding at anything else, it's just a different skillset than what academia tends to place value on.

You can modularize anything, don't know about planes but autos manufacturing are already moving to modular platforms where different automobile front Middle and ends can be plugged into each other to make different cars

Also I watched a show where they do a lot of aircraft maintenance in poor countries already. HELLO PLANES CAN FLY. And can fly where labor is cheapest to get work done on them.

Can't believe you brought up CAD jobs. Anything that can be done on a computer can be done overseas. I'm in IT and have read plenty of IT people saying they are building out Colombia and Costs Rica with fiber so they can start setting up skilled labor sweatshops for jobs like CAD drafter and Finance.

Motherfucker there ain't no place to hide. You know there used to be a time people would fix car engines for everything but a cracked block. Now a days it's cheaper to replace the engine for all but minor problems

That's the kind of shit that can be taught to anyone.

Knew a high first gen Mexican woman drop out that does cad drafting at a construction company. Trades aren't hard to learn, most of the work doesn't require school, if they could train her to do it they could train anyone

what does her ethnicity and education level have to do with it

the trouble is they don't want to train people, right? companies all want someone with 8 years experience and a BS.

Uh in the real world when employers see brown it=poor and willing to put up with exponentially more abuse.

Nigga I've been to the fields and construction sites, white bois there are about as rare as unicorns.

My point is this woman had something like an 8th grade education and got trained up on CAD. Learning a trade doesn't protect you from immigrants, 3rd world sweatshops cause
=you can't send these jobs overseas hut dur dur=
Or porky just putting in the money to engineer out the need for these trades to begin with.

i live in new england and i never see a brown person on a construction site. i never see any women either but that's a whole different paradigm.

in an installation role, they can bring them in, but they can't ship the work out. you're a little bit safer.

project harder, Holla Forums, we're talking about work here, go back to discuss how the latest children cartoon you saw promotes miscegenation

I'm talking about burger land, and aren't poles and eastern euros the Mexicans of the U.K.

wrong england m8

New England is pretty "white".

Helo from Maine

Gaiz, welders will soon be obsolete: they have robotic welders and machinists now in SK, soon to be spread to the rest of the world.
youtube.com/watch?v=keAJBFsVfzw
trade school is a spook

(almost) no brown people in new england m8

Enjoy your toilet paper shortage after central planning fails again, faggot.

This is your brain on burgeristan

...

right, they can't outsource an installation job
now all we have to do is elect some guy like trump who promise to build a wall and deport all the illegals oh wait

i'm in a union and all the guys really dig it.
we have "forced union states" because every time some asshole tries to push thru right to work legislation people get really pissed off and rally and call their legislators and slash tires

probably for the better tho welding is a crap job by which i mean it pays good and kills you slowly.
now we have to train people who can program the damn things

Where do you work ?

ibew 103 don't drive a subaru

Well, to correct on the aircraft thing, most FAA regulations make it kind of difficult to work on an American registered aircraft out of country due to things like the need to understand and write english on a fluent basis, you have to have a seperate US repair station certification and the fact that even if they have an airliner certification regulations are so stringent on aircraft that a lot of companies prefer to have them fixed either at home where its more accountable or trustworthy. A plane going down because you decided to have it worked for cheap is what forces a lot of companies to err on the side of caution because the FAA cracks down really, REALLY hard on that shit even during routine inspections (like pursuing individual mechanics, companies, and managers and straight up taking away their license for life or removing any US based certification).

GRRRRR THOSE AWFUL GREEDY WORKERS NOT WANTING TO BE RUTHLESSLY EXPLOITED ONLY TO DIE IN POVERTY

GOD IT MAKES ME SO MAD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

If you consider an unstable, insecure job earning around $30k a "good job", go for it

Find a low-paying job as an assistant or something to some construction gig (painting, caulking, washing homes, etc.) After you get the hang of how it works and you save up some cash, work for yourself and just go around your area asking for work. It's difficult to find work, but if you can land a few decent jobs as a self-employed guy, it's much better than working hourly for someone while they suck out the profits. You have to build connections after you land initial jobs, but that's just how the shitty system works. If you ever decide to do a trade, don't EVER settle for hourly. It's an absolute scam if you have the option of trying on your own. Also, don't go through middlemen. I can't tell you how many times I've lost money because I didn't go to the builder or homeowner directly, but went through some painter or masonry guys for work. They're all fucking weasels trying to make money off of you for shit they didn't do. They think finding a job entitles them to 20% of the money. Stay safe. Good luck, user.

And don't hire hourly workers. If you're going to ever hire someone, pay them on a job-by-job basis for the work they do. Don't exploit your workers. : ^ )

t. self-employed cleaner and caulker of homes/buildings