Stupid Holla Forums retards push for trump cuz muh accelerationism

Ah of course, I forgot the accelerationist mindset is nothing but a few left-wing sentences mingled together with no theory or common sense behind to turn them into a cohesive worldview.

If those things would happen anyway because Fascism is apparently a fatalist outcome, what's the point of fighting you retard? Should Socialists and Communists in Weimar just have welcomed Nazism because eeeehh, it's capitalism in crisis? The whole point of understanding the class character of Fascism is that you could fight it through any mechanism available. Read a book instead of just trying to mix together half a dozen of azquotes.com left-wing sentences you moron.

Right, and is this about to happen anytime soon? Because so far I'm only seeing the people Bernie helped push to the Left jump back to the arms of the Democratic establishment out of fear of what further "divisiveness" would bring. Liberals praising the military establishment and cheerleading a potential invasion of Syria because at least that means Putin isn't manipulating Trump, people wanting Assange and Snowden shot because they believe they're responsible for the outcome of the elections, the CIA treated as a bastion of virtue, former discredited conservatives being brought back to the mainstream and kindly received in liberal late-night shows and the liberal press because "Bush may have been bad, but at least he didn't …" ? Not to mention reactionary ideas now accepted globally and Fascists being treated as voices of moderation because now the standard is Steve Bannon and Richard Spencer? Is that the class consciousness you're talking about?

It seems that, when situations get worst, instead of magically turning into revolutionaries by virtue of circumstance as accelerationist believe, people just get terrified and fall back to the arms of the establishment because they want a return to normalcy. This new class-consciousness you're talking about would, apparently, love of Mike Pence was president! The proles are so woke now! We've spent decades trying to convince people that the establishment is not there to serve their interests, but now they will think twice before abandoning it again.

Of course, shoutout to Bernie for actually understanding this would have happened and choosing to swallow his anger and support her. He could actually understand the implications of a Trump administration and the most likely reactions to it. Too bad most leftists are utterly incapable of making a realistic prognosis like that, and just want to see an endless series of radical purity-signaling instead.

Ah, so you're the "I'd like socialism, but nice capitalism would be bearable too" type. Apply the "read a book" maymay to yourself
international-communist-party.org/CommLeft/CL25_26.htm#Antifascism
libcom.org/library/fascism-anti-fascism-gilles-dauve-jean-barrot
libcom.org/library/when-insurrections-die
Also didn't imply opposing Hitler is wrong, but rather that opposing him on the grounds of wanting to retain liberal democracy as a lesser evil(ie. being a fucking tool) rather than trying to move to the socialist system.

FUCKING THIS.
Bernie could see he couldn't really win and the best bet for stopping blumpf would be Hillary, which is the lesser evil and only retards disagree.

Nobody trusted Hillary, nobody but an ultra tight minority would support her and thus more people would be unified against her and the establishment.

Now half the world is busy cocksucking Drumpf because he told them what they wanted to hear so they can feel like th victims

You have to go back

Sure thing Holla Forums, this isn't for brain dead retards like you who suck fascist dick

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Damn we arrived at the link-dump stage soon this time.

I may have to take back the read a book suggestion, because if that's what you infer from my post you probably don't have the necessary reading skills to complete one.

Either way, Left-wing politics isn't divided by "nice capitalism" vs accelerationism. This is an artificial axis that only a person completely illiterate on left-wing theory would come up with. The main names of the revolutionary tradition all believed that reactionary and counter-revolutionary forces should be fought even if that involved compromise with the status quo. I mean, Jesus, what is even the fucking Communist Manifesto if not a declaration of alliance with the bourgeois in Prussia/Germany as long as the aristocracy remained in power? What is Marx's and the International's stauch support for Lincoln if not support for standard capitalist forces against the onslaught of reactionary ones? If you're uncapable of thinking in Marxist terms say so, but don't hide your lack of perspective and don't outsource the task of justifying your position and though process dumping links like Holla Forums dumps race science "studies".

Deciding NOT not to oppose Hitler just because liberal democracy is not good enough is an utterly idiotic position, and if that's what you honestly believe then you have no business discussing what Fascism is and how to stop it.

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If the final vote is between Macron and Le Pen, there's no reason not to vote for Le Pen.

The centrists must be told in no unclear terms that their politics of empty gestures are the past.

That said, vote for Melenchon for first round.

that didn't happen

go home yankie, this is europe

Just face it, nobody with a double digit Autism Level cares about retaining liberal democracy, it's not our goal as proven by the numerous cases of it nuking left-wing movements through history, even many Bernout socdems have figured that out and apparently you cannot.
Trump is not a fascist and anybody suggesting otherwise is too stupid even for wikipedia articles

if the main challenge to it is Fascism or reaction, it is. If the main challenge to it is Socialism, it isn't. If you can't grasp that and deal with things only as fixed abstractions, I'm sorry but Marxism and dialectical thinking are simply not for you.

not funny

Read Marx.

ITT: Redditors.

I never implied such dichotomy.
In Russia the compromise was fickle and collapsed immediately after the Tsar was disposed as Bolsheviks knew that Provisional Government is as dangerous to the left-wing cause. On the other hand, in Spain the nicer approach toward capitalist Republic on the ground of having to focus on struggle against Francoists ended in May Days because the glorious capitalists allies won't mind massacring their anti-capitalists allies if they dare to lift their heads even a little bit.
Those were a competition of capitalism vs slave system and capitalism vs feudalism, the authoritarian/liberal competition of capitalism vs capitalism operate on different dynamics and ultimately both served to ensure the dominance of capitalism, with authoritarian version being put in charge once the liberal one shits itself to death.
My point is we must fight both sides of capitalist political system, as liberal capitalists are as willing to kill off left-wingers if they get too dangerous as authoritarian capitalists. Learn from history, Hillary wouldn't approach the revolutionary left-wing movement any better than Trump just because he talked about homos being great during her campaign.

Now don't talk about reading Marx because we both know you barely did that yourself and are trying to look smart despite sounding like a Kautskyite faggot.

i mean, antifa is a big thing now. Mostly because of Trump

Many things have changed, like the death of the left-neoliberal Democrat consensus.

If he thought Mussolini was helping he wouldn't have opposed him.

Not just Gotha Programme but in many other texts like 18th Brumaire, his correspondences with Engels, etc.

Clear evidence you have no idea what Bordiga was about.

You're right, there's a third axis: social democracy that desperately tries to fancy itself as revolutionary or even socialism.

don't need to, i have a leftypol meme collection limited edition

But that's how you framed the debate and present strategies. if that's now how you conceive it, then don't call anyone who disagrees with the idiotic accelerationist worldview a liberal lesser evil-ist.

It's truly heartwarming to see you're capable of doing some research when pressured, but unfortunately none of the things you've said have any relation to the point I've made.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Marx's entire line of thinking regarding events during his lifetime was not always centered around historical progresses as an end in itself, but strategic considerations regarding which particular bourgeois administration would best allow for the development of proletarian institutions and unleashing of its forces.

Examples of this are several. He thought elections in England were important and worthy fighting for ("The carrying of Universal Suffrage in England would, therefore, be a far more socialistic measure than anything which has been honored with that name in the Continent. Its inevitable result, here, is the political supremacy of the Working class.") which shouldn't have been a case if, as you say, for him it would all be just capitalism all the same. He saw the victory of Prussia in the Franco-Prussian war as desirable, because the centralisation of Germany would have been benefitial for the centralisation of the working class. He defended administrations who pushed for nationalization of industries and concentration of the means of production in the hands of the state several times. He criticized Bakuninists who, instead of thinking strategically thought in terms of moral absolutes (i.e. this system is bad, so we reject it entirely) and consistently fought with them over the necessity to partake in elections and, above all, fight for the right to partake in them:

"One should never believe that it is of small significance to have workers in Parliament. If one stifles their voices, as in the case of De Potter and Castian, or if one ejects them, as in the case of Manuel – the reprisals and oppressions exercise a deep effect on the people. If, on the other hand, they can speak from the parliamentary tribune, as do Bebel and Liebknecht, the whole world listens to them. In the one case or the other, great publicity is provided for our principles. To give but one examples: when during the [Franco-Prussian] war, which was fought in France, Bebel and Liebknecht undertook to point out the responsibility of the working class in the face of those events, all of Germany was shaken; and even in Munich, the city where revolutions take place only over the price of beet, great demonstrations took place demanding an end to the war. The governments are hostile to us, one must respond to them with all the means at out disposal. To get workers into Parliament is synonymous with a victory over the governments, but one must choose the right men, not Tolains."

Marx was a stategist and a tactician. Questions of strategyc and tactics require knowing the system and knowing which particular arrangements best allow for your side to advance. You need to grasp differences between parties and politicians, the proper cleavages and distinctions, so you can accurately make predictions and adjust a successful proletariat organization for it. He did that well, and thought no action was useless:

"The economical emancipation of the working class by the conquest of political power. The use of that political power to the attainment of social ends. It is necessary that our aims should be thus comprehensive to include every form of working-class activity. To have made them of a special character would have been to adapt them to the needs of one section – one nation of workmen alone. But how could all men be asked to unite to further the objects of a few? To have done that, the Association must have forfeited its title to International. The Association does not dictate the form of political movements; it only requires a pledge as to their end. It is a network of affiliated societies spreading all over the world of labor. In each part of the world, some special aspect of the problem presents itself, and the workmen there address themselves to its consideration in their own way. Combinations among workmen cannot be absolutely identical in detail in Newcastle and in Barcelona, in London and in Berlin. In England, for instance, the way to show political power lies open to the working class. Insurrection would be madness where peaceful agitation would more swiftly and surely do the work. In France, a hundred laws of repression and a mortal antagonism between classes seem to necessitate the violent solution of social war. The choices of that solution is the affair of the working classes of that country. The International does not presume to dictate in the matter and hardly to advise. But to every movement it accords its sympathy and its aid within the limits assigned by its own laws."

As you can see, he thought abstentionism is useless AND thought no single action will universally serve all territories, and he also thought the working class should fight for the system that best allows its growth under capitalism, until revolutionary sentiment is big enough to allow for its overthrow.

Of course, the AdBusters Left has all the right to yell "capitalism is bad no matter what, maaaan" and reject politics as a language because it's all the same, man, these politicians fucking LIE and so on. But they have no right to use Marx's name for that.

Calling someone a Kautskyite is precisely what someone who has never read Marx would say. So eat a dick you fucking retard

Yes, but only after this gem:

"So the fascists want to bum down the parliamentary circus? We'd love to see the day! Those collaborationists [Socialist Party leaders] who have always opposed and sabotaged workers' self-defence want a general strike in order to manoeuvre in the current crisis? Great! The main danger is, and remains, that everyone agrees that the apple cart isn't overturned, and that a legal and parliamentary solution is found."

Well I quoted above some texts that go against this notion. I've read the Gotha Programme and I can see how someone who tries to take from Marx not a method and an ever-changing strategy according to circumstances, but a dogma, would read accelerationism into it. I don't recall anything like that from the 18th Brumaire, and all the events surrounding the Franco-Prussian war, Bonapartists and the Paris Commune lead me to believe Marx saw much use in the instruments and particularities of the bourgeois state. I can find it if you want (I don't want to make something TL;DR) but Marx, for example, argued against armed proletarian uprising before the Paris Commune, believing it could threaten the return to bourgeois normalcy following the fall of Bonaparte.

As far as correspondence go, I'm always happy to study it and if you could quote examples we can discuss them.

Well, I'll admit I don't and I'm only familiarized with the above quote and some of the history of the Italian Communist Party (I got that passage from The Resistible Rise of Benito Mussolini which didn't make me sympathetic to Bordiga at all). But I was just shitposting to bump the thread.

Revolutionary socialism has several shades, most of which, including Lenin's and Marx's, didn't preach abstentionism from politics and didn't perceive all administrations of capitalism as a monolithic evil and completely equal out of some petty moral judgement about Capitalism's inherent evilness. Marx was a social scientist, not a religious preacher.

The Democratic party has to die before the left can have any power in the US. That would never have happened if Hillary had won, but it is happening now that Trump won.

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who is shilling for le pen? i haven't seen it

melenchon oui

nobody, we support le pen out of phisolophical reasons

hi Holla Forums

You have to be special kind of stupid if you think drumpf or le pen are accelerationism.

orthos get out reeeeeeeeeeeeee

Unironic shitposting is still shitposting.

it is either newfags or Holla Forumstards, only such people support trump and lepen

>>>/reddit/

Trump is turning people more sympathetic to socialist ideas. If shillary had won then the opposite would be happening.
I believe the same will also happen in France in case LePen wins.
Learn to dialectics, you fucking faggot.

Hey Holla Forums

hey Holla Forums

200% Holla Forums confirmed

Where's the evidence for that?

Also, bad reformist Sanders turned more people into Socialism than any retarded accelerationist approach.

You have no idea what dialectics is other than a few happening-type memes you retard.

Fuck off to r/politics with your libshit memes

Easy way to find Holla Forumstards lmao

I don't support either because I'm not a retard caring about bourgois elections, I just want to make both of you reatrds fuck off from Holla Forums
you're only proving my point, go back to shitposting 4/pol/, reddit or wherever you crawled up from.

You got me. Who do you radical leftists support then? Mélenchon the succdem?

Read Marx you dumbass.

Most people arguing for "accelerationism" on this board are id/pol/lers trying to make abstentionism a default position among the Left. Nobody buys it except one retarded ML or two.

I'm sure he would love how pronounced is the difference between the political platforms of those two candidates and proclaim that one of them is better than the other. After all, Democrats and Republicans are very different overall, no doubt about that.

I've read Marx a thousand times and I still don't get why he has such a hard on for production and why is that supposed to be revolutionary. It's just a moral version of capitalism.

Sucdem reformism doesn't lead anywhere and it just prolongs capitalism's life.
People will only truly wake up and act when conditions deteriorate to the absolute rock bottom.
People bashing accelerationism ITT are probably just liberal redditors who just want "capitalism with a human face" or "Denmark democratic socialism".
Well, fuck you!

This thread brings up an important point. I follow an accelerationist academic. When you think about it, a politician can't help to accelerate the decline of a state unless he has complete control of the state's military power.

Essentially, Trump would have to be a true dictator like Castro, Hitler, or Gorbachev. In the US we have the deep state, so politicians can't go against the true regime without assassination or impeachment. In Trump's case, if he were to fulfill his promises he'd be impeached.

Right now people would have to actually stop paying taxes to take away the economic power of the military industry, which won't ever happen because taxes are taken by force. Whole cities would have to quit paying over night, simultaneously.

Trump can't do anything. We just have to wait until capitalism can't operate anymore.

t. Bordiga, july 1922

/thread

Who /so radical you vote for the Right/ here?

Thank you for this image

He saw enough difference between French empire and Prussian kingdom to pick sides, so why wouldn't he?

Marx wasn't a child yelling about how evil capitalism is and how you should boycott elections and eat vegan. You might want to pick up some of his books some day.

Fixed a mistake.

Marx was also for accelerationism in the sense he supported increasingly radical social democratic reforms which would eventually cause contradictions and capitalist crisis.

It did.

Don't /thread me with some retarded redditor who wasn't here 6 months ago.

Just submit an invalid "voting paper" or however you English speaking bastards refer to that shit. Or create a bogus candidate which is also a practice in some countries. No need to choose between center-right and center-left.

nice try reddit

Because there was certain ideological and political difference between what Frenchies and Germans represented. Hillary and Trump on the other hand, much like the entire upper strata of their parties, do not differ significantly, much like Obama was called Bush 2.0 due to the similarities, Bush having similarities with Clinton and so on.
The outcome of the elections would not be different, aside from maybe those trade deals like TPP, which will return in a few years again under a different name.

Please elaborate which difference was that.

Socdems don't even know this song.

I don't get it.

If you're an accelerationist today, chances are you'd just be a regular anarkiddie retard during Marx's day, and despise him.

weak meme tbh

S A V A G E AF

Historical materialism–read about it.

lol

I get the desire to challenge and respond to a post you disagree with, but please understand you're not the guy who should be doing it.

I used to feel this way, truly I did. But it seems like since the 70s the left takes 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

Even with a proto fascist in office the lumpenproles still will not rise up, I feel like 99% aren't going to change anything even while they are sitting in a cattle car

Leftypol BTFO forever

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wtf i love bordiga now

But WWII made way for revolution in China and anti-colonial movements. So it's all worked out in the end.

Which has been replaced by a reactionary state with even more deeply entrenched corporate interest now that Republicans can get rid of what limp-dicked regulations were there to begin with. Good one

wow it's literally nothing

Yeah, China is just trying to be the US in Asia

It was always that way, but with Trump in office nobody can deny it anymore. Half the reason things got this bad is because liberals were able to put a human face on capitalism's worst excesses, but now liberals have been discredited, and Trump is running what's left of conservatism into the ground.

basically

Trump has been fantastic for disabusing Americans of their illusions. Not only are the Holla Forumstards being forced to stretch their fantasy to absurd proportions to justify their big daddy fucking them over at ever turn, but the liberals are being forced to accept that pandering to identities does not address the fact that people are broke and desperate.

let me guess the solution is to sell out to the establishment and deep state like a good porky

And how.

For a leftist board, the level of political consciousness here is below zero.

Also it's almost like these people have a script, everytime they shill for this stupid bullshit they repeat the exact same words and when confronted with arguments they stop replying. We /astroturf/ now or what?

Who needs astroturfing when memes do the job?

Never would I've suggested that electing the fuhrer would be a good idea. Marie le'Pen though always seemed legit.

tbf i wouldn't say Trump and Le Pen are the same, Le Pen atleast is consistent and have a political platform

an establishment that seems hellbent on starting a war with russia