Pierre Tru-Dank

The thing is Anti-fa is really shit, I get that at the beginning they had their place but now they are awful. I usually call them liberals who like the color red because they certainly have a liberal outlook. It seems like they care more about punching le evil racists in head than actually opposing capitalism. Racists and fascists aren't the ultimate bad guys, these things are symptoms of capitalism. Antifa originally was to protect leftist demonstrations from fascists, but now they just show up to wherever any right wing group demonstrates to "smash fash" or whatever. They aren't helping leftism at all, they are just throwing street brawls because they are faggot LARPers.

I also get that antifa does oppose US imperialism at least ideologically, but they are doing a terrible job at demonstrating that. At times like these we shouldn't organize based on ideology, that is dumb university student bullshit. We should have a united front against war, including the alt-right.

Think of Mao's concept of the united front, unite with nationalists against the Japanese because fighting two fronts means you would ultimately lose, and would sacrifice your later goals anyways. So what we need to do is unite where we agree and separate where we disagree, the anti-war movement should be a demonstration of the proletariat, not of a specific political faction.

Or you can smash fash while blasting techno music with your anunmoose masks and AnKek flag…

Why shouldn't we "coopt" the alt-right's anti-war stance?

I said don't let them coopt our antiwar stance, not the other way around. For the record, I wouldn't personally protest this event, but letting the alt right run away with the anti war narrative unchallenged is super short sighted. That's how you get a million liberal outlets easily framing it as a singularly Nazi stance. Instead, liberal media outlets just see another episode of antifa vs alt right slap fights and ignore the anti war angle, which is poison the second it gets concretely attached to the alt right

I know, but if they could coopt our position, why couldn't we coopt theirs?

Then we should get a leftist presence in the anti war movement, otherwise we just look like neoliberal useful idiots (which at this point, antifa practically is that). If we joined with the anti-war movement we could open up discussion and bring them to our side, now the altright looks at antifa as Soros agents. So it's not helping us at all, kinda makes me think antifa is COINTELPRO.

The bits shitting on Sargon of Mossad were nice I guess.

I think the big take-away is that most Anti-fa groups aren't practicing politics so much as they're just getting into fights. And while I don't personally have anything against beating up fascists it should be plainly obvious to see that there should be organizing, propagandizing, and other efforts to build a wider leftist movement in the US.

There is a very clear danger in being unable, or refusing, to grow. If in the hypothetical scenario of the Alt-right ideology continuing to spread while much of the left keeps shitposting on Facebook, we'd see larger and larger subsets of the proletariat being subsumed into the what is essentially a conservative youth movement. We can already see this phenomenon, when the proles that were participating in an anti-war protest were met by a group of skinny fat teenagers dressed in black while hiding their faces.

There are going to be multitudes of everyday people who will or have already been influenced by Alt-right ideology and the only thing that Anti-Fa can do in response is 'Bash Le Fash'. An important lesson that can be taken from history is that the liberal Anti-Fascist movement of Wiemar Germany helped crush the German Revolution to in turn be crushed by the Fascists, they were losers.

My problem is me and many other irl organizers planned plenty of anti war demonstrations following the original strike. There were PSL, ISO, DSA, etc protests all over the place. But the fact that some people also decided to shit down a potentially subversive alt right rally means everyone is a neoliberal shill. It's just super black and white thinking and I still maintain that an unobstructed "nazis protest the war" headline is a poison bill we must try to avoid at any cost.

This assumes a neutral, unbiased playing field for us when it comes to news coverage. Don't be naive. The liberal media is actively looking for ways to stick the anti war narrative to an unsavory party/image

...

Yeah i've been a little lost with him recently

Still a good boy tho

fuck off, nazbol.

end this meme

they have always done both of these things.

they care about both. most are anarchists or communists.

those disagreements happen to be extremely racist in nature and threaten the safety of specific groups the altright likes to target.

Pierre did no wrong.

...

You're the first and basically only person in this thread to bring up racism.

its easier to say that when you're not a targeted group.

your mom is racism

See this is why I call antifa cucks liberals, "HEY GUYS I AM X LEFTIST IDEOLOGY LOL SMASH FASH XDDDD". Yeah that is the definition of LARPing, what matters is how you apply your theory, right now you are using liberalism. You have to analyze politics in terms of class conflict not "I oppose all the bad things and support all the good things" which is liberalism.

Ok well I think the point should be to make minority groups to defend themselves, we shouldn't have to protect them and they shouldn't have to rely on us, safety pin bullshit.

Come back with some theory my guy.

getting tired of pierre's intentionally edgy shit tbh. it used to be somewhat tolerable, but now he's just getting worse

Getting tired of the NazBol memery?

No seriously, I'll take suggestions on how to improve.

Did he use to be a Holla Forumsyp? It's really tiring to watch him make predictable mental gymnastics for why collaboration with the alt-right is actually good and any action from leftists (both direct action and electoral) is wrong and LARPy.

I would advise cutting down on the nazbol stuff, yes. Too many impressionable kids are taking it seriously

As opposed to the rhetoric of "the left unites with fascists, i guess horseshoe theory was right after all"?

No, it's the only thing keeping Holla Forums from becoming reddit out of peer pressure.

No you see, the liberal media is just an open and balanced platform and all you need to do to get your message across is earnestly convey your stance hard enough at them. Pay no attention to how media narratives form or any more complicated strategy than "X good and Y bad".

that is quite literally what antifa supports.

right now they're trying to put off fascist organizing. no one here is saying theory isn't important (whatever specific theory you happen to be referencing here) but you cant use theory to eliminate fascism overnight. you can both use theory and attempt to repel fascist organizing in the areas where theory hasn't yet been able to eliminate a certain aspect of class conflict. repelling fascism isn't going to matter much to fascists when they're not even fascists anyway.

Also it's your own fucking content, you're not a spokesperson for this place, you're a creator, don't let the redditors and the Holla Forumsyps who come and go here influence your style.

I was a Holla Forumsyp when I was like 14, but that was a time on leftbook when all the edgy kids would flip from AnCap to Marxist-Leninist to Anarcho-Communism.

We need an anti-war movement that is authentically left, but we ought to collaborate on one common goal. I am not saying we sing the international with them, but more of a non-aggression pact.

lol no I'm not a Bordigist, I am just saying """Direct Action""" (smashie smashie time) is not being put to good effort.

I also support some electoral action, I am even shilling for Melenchon as he will take France out of the EU and NATO.

you can be both anti-reddit and tired of Nazbol memery that Holla Forumsyp converts and newbies start to take too seriously.

and pierre this applies to you and everyone else in this board, because i notice that when it comes to "taking sides" on things like altright vs. antifa, there is a mindset of false dichotomy and having to choose one or the other. i understand you're trying to appeal to more people by "choosing sides" and giving a specific side handouts, but this is really unnecessary. you can convince people to agree with your own opinions and not have to worry about having to comply with that person's current view point to convince them.

...

Yeah I'm really not trying to come off too confrontational about this. I probably agree with you more than I disagree, I just think that messaging is more important and sensitive than you realize. In a perfect world, yeah maybe we could stand in line with Spencer on this. But that's not how the real world works and there are people who understand that a weekend of "antifa thugs punches poor nazis again!" headlines is worth avoiding "Why neonazis are the ones defending Bashar "literally Hitler" al-Assad" headlines. I get if you don't think it's useful but it would be good if you could at least acknowledge that antifa fighting Spencer doesn't signal that they are pro-war.

Do you ever think a paranoia of the big bad racist is preventing us from recruiting as effectively? Like I get the Nazi with his swastika shield is scum, but as Sargon pointed out at that Berkeley event, most people there were not alt-right, many were right wing but not white nationalists.

We shouldn't take their side as in adopting their positions. Just like how in Mao's united front, you ally with the nationalists against Japan, but you don't sacrifice your anti-capitalist views. In fact the reason why you ally with them is so you don't sacrifice your core principles, so that you can win at a later date.

The alt-right aren't the chinese nationalists. They don't have significant power, and should either be debated or ignored. The precise reason we should criticize antifa violence is because of its uselessness.

yeah nazis sure have a track record of honoring those

if it becomes too onesided on "smashie the fashie" than yes, but thats not the case, and the main reason that's the case is because that makes a more interesting headline.

when it comes to building up the left, the best thing you can do is take direct action buy joining Food not Bombs/a local soup kitchen, prison rehab volunteering, squatting, community gardens, etc. in order to gain a larger base of people that can then move on to larger projects. anarchists do this all the time. and i know Bookchinfags, leninists and leftcoms that (tbh) shit up this board by screeching "LIFESTLYLISM" might really hate having to do something other than, quite literally, LARP on an image board all day, go to out of touch party meetings, discuss less out of touch but still out of touch theory, and have to make appeals to racist Holla Forumsyps in order to gain a (small) base of people that do almost the exact same thing that they do on a daily basis.

sorry if this sounds sectarian, but im not attacking their tendencies, just what people do, and im not saying this is everyone.

Antifa - inadvertently helping fascists' public image since 1930s.

I don't just mean Spencer's autists, I mean anyone who is anti-war who is not a leftist.

Libertarians and constitutionalists for example.

As well as liberals if there are still any who aren't full "HILLARY IS MY QUEEN YASSS BOMB ASSAD!" "MOMMY'S GOTTA DO WHAT MOMMY'S GOTTA DO!!"

This. Sometimes I get really turned off by the levels of unironic Neo-Liberalism on this board. I much prefer Ironic NazBolism and even real NazBolism.

see first part of

i think rampant liberalism has more to do with it, although i do think overreporting of outright racist idpol from some (not all) people in identity based groups like BLM is giving some blowback. not how i say overreporting, because i don't think their specific type of rhetoric is that widespread or an actual threat to most white people. what is a threat is capitalism, which most of these liberals/idpol people don't talk about.

if there was a credible chance that our opposition combined could prevent imperialist intervention,
I'd agree with you, but I don't think that's the case.

why do people like forcing so much bullshit ambiguity when it comes to the alt-rights viewpoints.

apparently unironic "gas the kikes", "blacks are inferior", racist graffiti and vandalism, and outright terror attacks arent enough to keep you from thinking that collaborating with them is a good idea.

this is more sensible.

It's not like the alt-right movement is any more proletarian then the modern left. Both are filled with larper faggots and pseudo-intellectuals. The alt-right probably has even less of a mass working class basis then the left at least we are associated with fight for 15 and stuff like that.

The best way to prevent this is probably just ignoring them not starting the media circus that is always associated with bashing.

Media circus associated with bashing is obfuscatory, the alternate headline would be the "nazis support war" one

This.

I would rather have unironic Nazbols here than unironic tumblr neoliberals who say stuff like "#I'mStillWithHer" and "fuck drumpf xDDDDD"

this, but people on both Holla Forumss seem to despise the idea of coorperation.

Know of anywhere where it isn't like this?

They were protesting against people who were openly against their "leader" when he fucked up.
They weren't protesting the cucks who stayed home dealing with their cognitive dissonance.
Protesting the ones that agree with you on some stane EXACTLY because of them agreeing with you on that, is a really shitty reaction. Stop being edgy.

Idkw you seem to think this is a stalemate in terms of PR. Maybe I'm just out of touch with the masses and they do "ignore it as just another slapfight", but anyone who takes a minute will take away that antifa was disrupting an anti-war protest.
I can see no way that this goes in your favor, stop wishful thinking.

And never train a dog. You would hit him when he doesn't shit inside the house because he shat so many times inside the house that you don't want him to shit any more anywhere

This guy gets it

Yeah, clearly I'm just autistically focused on maintaining the integrity of our narrative as opposed to having a pragmatic understanding of how the media works and how their narratives are crafted.

Oh, I am all for opposing
with equivalent and retaliatory force.

It's the whole attempt to portray Richard Spencer leaving his home as a terror attack that makes me decide that any collaboration with smashies is a bad idea. But, unlike smashies, I'm not an essentialist, so I would still go to the anti-war protest with them. Provided they weren't being smashies at the moment, of course, since neither I nor the general public thinks that trash cans are at fault for the bombing of Syria.

Bravo lifestylists

...