Venezula riots against United Socialist Party

business as usual then?

What did Maduro do wrong? Wasn't he doing the same stuff Chavez was?

He didn't invest in anything other than gibs because lol oil prices. Now the right wing reactionaries are primed and ready to stage a coup of some sort as is the nature of things down in America's backyard.

That's the problem. But Chavez died so the piano is falling on Maduros head

Capitalism 143
Communism 0

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So is Norway by the same reckoning

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One day the penny will drop that communism realised never ends up as communism idealised, because it runs afoul of human nature, and is thus impossible. But by all means, keep trying.

Weak bait Holla Forums

Literally can be invoked to justify anything including communism and I'd say the case that communism is human nature is much better since for most of humanity's existence they lived in tribes without personal property that were fairly egalitarian.

One day the penny will drop that fascism realised never ends up as fascism idealised, because it runs afoul of human nature, and is thus impossible. But by all means, keep trying.

That might work for negros squatting in the African dirt; but it doesn't scale to civilised society. Civilisation requires hierarchy.

kek, if tomorrow Norway suddenly runs out of oil, democracy sure will save the day

Does it?? Would the Greeks be rioting if they hadn't joined the euro, or the EU?

late stage capitalism is a meme. No system us infallible to crisis. But when push comes to shove. They choose capitalism over, and over , and over again.

See : ussr, prc, Vietnam, etc.

Late stage communism is less of a joke. As it has always resulted in going 100% full capitalist , not pushing the reset button on communism.

wtf I'm an anprim now

maidan 2.0?

So Holla Forums are the means of production finally being seized or what?

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any Venezuela anons here?

I don't like ML states, that said CIA had been trying to stabilise Venezuela for ages.

The opposition is even worse than Maduro.

American pawns that want to turn Venezuela into Ancapistan.

If they succeed, look for an apocalypse for the Venezuelan paroles while the Western media slobbers all over Amerizuela's dick.

Proles

Just like how serfs chose feudalism every time their revolts failed?

From what I understand there are three main issues.

They relied way to heavily on oil prices and funded a lot of their gibsmedats with oil, meaning that they became unsustainable when prices collapsed.

They kept a market economy but strangled the fuck out of their markets unnecessarily with things like major restrictions on currency trading. It was like they wanted to implement real socialism but we're too scared to actually sieze the MoP and throw porky out on his ass. The result was this weird half breed that managed to combine the worst of both markets and planning.

Not much to say here, more of a political problem than an economic one really, and rampant across Latin America.

Although for all this shit going on its no surprise that Bolivia has more or less the same economic model as Venezuela without the reliance on oil and it's the fastest growing economy on the continent. But you won't hear that on the porky news.

This isn't late-stage capitalism, it's not capitalism at all. You currently have a system where central bankers can print unlimited amounds of debt-based fiat currency, use it to sway and control global markets, thereby accumulating real, tangible wealth. But at the same time, regular people have to actually work/do labor to get paid in this fiat currency that's constantly being devalued…
Capitalism requires sound money based on gold, silver, or other actual resources. Anything else is a sham.

How is gold or silver not another form of fiat currency? It only has value because people says it does, just like paper money. It doesn't have any actual use value unless you're making jewelry or electronics.

chink you need to go home

wtf
meant to quote>>1590980

Nope. This would be the equivalent of surfs being so shit at governing themselves that they decide to bring back royalty.

Ala Russia and China again lol. Late stage communism is a real thing.

It's a physical reource, that you either have or don't. You can't conjure it out of thin air. You can't conjure labor out of thin air either. Labor should be paid in real reousrces, not bogus, empty fiat currency. Taht's the basis for capitalism, and what exists today is a lie that the USA is desperately trying to enforce with its military, so the BRICS alternative doesn't take off and totally implode the US economy (they have it coming though).

ching-chong go back already
nobody is retarded enough to go back to gold standard
deflationary currency is kill for capitalism

You can't conjure money out of thin air. Your argument is retarded.

You clearly don't understand the finance industry.

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I think the point is that printed money, like gold, is a physical representation of value that in and of itself doesn't actually have any real use apart from being a medium of exchange. The only difference is that paper money is easier to manufacture than gold coins/bars.

When bank notes are issued, the central bank loans money to a government at interest. That money is backed by nothing of value - it is backed only by MORE debt owed to the bank. But the bank still earns interest from the loan; the bank turns a profit in spite of the fact it has lent money it does not physically have, and has no way to recover should it need to. In this way, profit for the bank is literally conjured out of thin air - and this forms the basis of ever expanding global debt. It is the scam that underlies central banking, the scam that has made Rothschild Jews incredibly wealthy.

But theoretically you could do this with gold too, if you could produce say, gold coins in the same quantities that you could produce paper money. The whole point about a medium exchange is that it's not backed by anything unless it has a kind of universal use value like oil or grain.

Also the scam you describe is a natural consequence of capitalism and profit seeking. Tbh there are few things more insidiously capitalist than central banks, accumulate obscene amounts of wealth without actually producing any value. Socialism would see these people put against the wall.

The Not Socialists tried to.

Maybe the Asserists, but the Hitlerites were as porky as they come. Also, fuck off Holla Forums.

christ, reading this thread is embarrassing. abolition of fractional banking (and all private banking), and replacement with a national bank is literally one of the planks of the communist manifesto.

The planks of the manifesto are literally transitional demands at most and totally meaningless in this late stage of capitalism.

True. It's one of the few things Marx got right. Stopped clock and all that.

"Theoretically" doesn't cut it. Theoretically it's possible to create a perpetual-motion machine, or find a source of unlimited, free energy but so far nobody has managed to. Physics is a bitch! The entire point of using gold or other limited and hard to manufacture resource is that it can't be subverted easily. At worst the money can be diluted by using less pure alloys, but this can be tested for. But that's a moot point, since the bankers have either brainwashed or strong-armed most nations into accepting fiat. Their next step is to get rid of cash entirely, so that everyone's (imaginary) wealth is immediately accessible and controllable. What better way to control the world population and remain in power than to have them by the balls like this?

What is describing is fractional reserve banking. It almost obliterated the US bankimg system when those predatory loans were issued and none of the banks could afford the losses. It imploded the world market by simply sending the US into a recession.

Gold on the other hand has to be actually mined to be produced and is utilitariam in nature (good for tech), plus it has perceived value in the eyes of the masses as a tangible material. But the important par is that you can't lend more than what you have.

A dollar has no intrinsic value of its own other than whatever random numberthe government feels like giving it amd the faith the people have in it. Heck, Venezuela is the posterchild for it right now seeing they made a new currency (BsF) less than two decades ago to phase out their worthless Bolivares, and now they have to print higher denomination bills of it to make the damn thing worth shit because their central gov't mismanaged their economy and needlessly antagonized the nations with the most purchasing power and interest in purchasing their Kajit wares.

Incompetents thought they could ride the oil wave without diversifying their economy, expecting to have bulk buyers of oil and using it to help the people. Only the Saudis could successfully do that and they figured this out while they were ahead and started working on it.

wew

kek no it's not

NO

theoretical doesn't mean out of your ass

this one is actually *theoretically* possible but you could extract no work from it.

And that's equally false, which is the point why I wrote those false statements.

so you ignore friction just like that, huh?

friction is not a fundamental law of physics.

Idiot, "fiat currency" means it's by force of law. Bitcoin is not fiat currency, but the dollar is in the USA. Gold is no more a fiat currency than seashells.

friction is a fundamental property of mechanical motion
next you'll tell me that laws of thermodynamics are not fundamental and it's theoretically possible to create a perpetual heat engine

anyway, laws of conservation are fundamental

You could totally pull of fractional reserve banking with gold backed currency as long as you aren't literally lugging gold bars around. As long as a significant amount of finance is just bookkeeping fractional reserve banking remains viable.

Friction is a macroscopic phenomenon that arises from surface contact with most common materials. It can be avoided with magnetic levitation in a vacuum or floatation in a superfluid bath.

technically, the second law of thermodynamics is not really a fundamental "law" but rather a statistical tendency (there are far more possible disordered states than ordered ones)

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elaborate

great and how are you gonna keep that superfluid in its state without input of energy?

technically any law is probabilistic in nature

Venezuela isn't ML you idiot, its just slightly nationalistic social democracy

Just CIA them, they're a fucking embarassment. Fuck socdems.

it's not even a good social democracy, they use their oil money for 'gibmedats' as Holla Forums would put it (imported consumer goods) instead of more state capitalist investments into education, infrastructure and so on. Only the latter is any good.

not sure what you need explained.

cold temperatures?

not true. conservation of momentum is always true, and things like ohm's law are true by definition.

Magnetic levitation means it's not touching anything solid and the vacuum means it's not touching anything gases. Literally not touching anything, no friction.

ok
what laws your model has?

so second law of thermodynamics does not exist in your model?

subatomic laws are probabilistic
so technically macro laws are probabilistic too

Norway struck oil in the 60's when they were already in the global top 10 in terms of GDP per capita. They would be a prosperous country with or without it.

Gold has use in electronics as an electrical contact, since gold won't corrode.

Should have used the oil money to build up a diverse industry (though I'm not sure this has ever worked anywhere before). Maybe opened up to the Chinese more or something. Also, should have purged way more while Chavez was still around; the Venezuelan state was constantly being sabotaged by the kind of folks that got behind the 2002 coup.

Man, it's so depressing.

Schlomo needs his cut, the thermodynamic jew is inescapable.

money.cnn.com/2017/04/20/news/gm-venezuela-plant-seized/
Oh fuck…the succdems are doing something effective for once…Is it just me or does GM's statement make it sound like a military intervention in Venezuela is on the horizon?

Happy 4/20, everybody!

seriously interested in what they gonna do

Yes, this is true also. But it also puts friction on how much money you can generate because gold itself is a limited resource (until we can mine in space, then the limit is based on distance).

Just about all of the top economies of the world have done this. The arabs are also attempting this in their hot sands shithole as we speak.

Venezuela had a running start, and they fucked it up worse than USA fucked over the middle east.

Unlikely. Even with Chavez, which was much more skilled than Maduro, the US only tried a coup (which lasted one day), no troops. At this point it makes more sense to have someone ready to take over and wait while it falls apart.

>nytimes.com/2017/04/20/business/venezuela-general-motors-business-protests.html?_r=0

THE PROLETARIAT ARE LITERALLY SEIZING THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION IN VENEZUELA, AND THE VENEZUALEN GOVERNMENT IN TURN IS SEIZING THE MANS OF PRODUCTION FROM THE PROLETARIAT!!

REEEEEEEEEEE!!!

What the fuck do you think the Euro is?
It's a rigid foreign currency that you can't print to finance government spending, just like Panama and the Bahamas use the dollar.
It is the opposite of Social Democracy.

I don't think that's accurate, (it's lolberg agitprop) you're still allowed to buy your things in euros and bitcoins, many third world countries use the dollar for daily transactions, there's no law forcing you to do anything, maybe on pegged currencies but those don't last long either.

Don't kid yourself, Trump's base are 50+ boomers who watch Fox just like him.
the alt-right is a joke.

nice

Fuck you, and your shit you piece of fucking thrash.

I would fucking LOVE to be living in an Americanized Venezuela, like Colombia, or Panama, you fucking disgusting slab of shit. People can't even protest here because they get shot dead

It's not the fucking CIA, It's not the M16, It's not the pinworms in your ass. People are starving because food is very expensive, Bolivares are worth a shit, your american idiotic left winged spit is worth more than the highest nomination bolivar.

Chavez and maduro did nothing during the oil bonanza to fix the means of production so that we could be less dependant of imports. Of course, you probably don't even live here, you think here everything is nice and cute, you fucking mongoloid. About 70.000 people are killed in Venezuela each year, there is people dead in every protest the opposition calls, there is no medicine to cure the ill, there is no food for people. The only ones eating healthy, taking trips to other countries, having a lot of fun are your dearly, beloved Maduro and his companions.

Fuck you, Fuck your family, fuck anyone who thinks like you, I hope one day suffer like people in Venezuela are suffering. Fuck you, Kill yourself

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I have yet to see any argument other than dismissing criticism as 'propaganda'.

It being under govt control is literally no better than GM at this point. The Venezuelan government doesn't use nationalized resources for anything, they're dependent on foreign capitalists for their entire budget and now they've been cut off of revenue.

means of production should stay with the proletariat

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Eh if you can pull of Fractional Reserve Banking you could probably pull off fractional reserve printing as long as a particular bill isn't tied to a PARTICULAR bar of gold. Just print off more money than you have gold, then hope you never get everyone trying to claim their gold at once.

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If one place seems to have a decent attempt at socialism and a bunch of other places copy them, it's not really multiple failures when the whole edifice collapses, it's really just one failure and a bunch of fruit of the poison tree.

You do realise that an Americanised Venezuela existed until the 1990s, right? What happened is that the oil price tanked, standards of living plummeted and the people started protesting and OH WAIT THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

It's almost like this is the 5th time Venezuela has gone through this cycle or something.

typical Holla Forums

in public :

meanwhile back on Holla Forums

kek, actually this is the original I made
←—
I just altered it for this current situation

Reposting from other thread.

Alright then, two questions I always ask and no one seems to know the abswer for.

1) How much of Venezuela's economy is actually collectivized?

2) What the hell is causing the food shortage? I mean I have no doubt there's CIA involvement and Porky's foul play, but even Allende's crisis didn't get this bad.

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Okay I'm done. You people are fucking retards, newfags, and unfunny, poorly read faggots. You take every lame as shit piece of bait, talk utter fucking drivel and there hasn't been a good post or anything funny here in fucking weeks. I hope the bunch of reddit browsing pony fucking diaper wearing faggots that have infested this shithole get cancer and die in an ancap rape pit.

lel, that's exactly what happened during the Great Depression, the bank runs. It's why FDR banned the private holding of gold in 1933.

As for the rest of the fiat vs gold bullshit in this thread fiat is better, the problem is the amount in circulation is being disproportionately hoarded by the rich and not being printed enough anymore to be dispersed amongst the masses. The numbers with fiat currency mean nothing, everything about modern economics is smoke and mirrors bullshit.

You there's more debt than actual currency in circulation right?

Well there is another thread, maybe it can fare better?

German media already doing the Assad stick on Maduro.
"Maduro is killing his own people™" where the people™ is one entity.
Pro socialist rallies don't exist according to media.

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If it wasnt venezuela then another country would be the scapegoat for the right.

Or just red scare about Cuba again

46.459% overall, 88.21% for the just maracaibo lowlands region

a mixture of people eating food on a daily basis, CIA, and GM, who had one of their plants seized by a workers union, and then later by the Venezuelan government, who has allowed only the Venezuelan employees to return to work, not the any of the GM management.

Where is your source?

How does this have anything to do with the food shortage?

Maracaibo is a city, unless you're talking about Zulia, which is like any other part of the country full of private businesses.

I'm aware shit is bad.

You genuinely think American imperialism and brutal neoliberalism are going to make things any better?

Over 70% of the economy is controlled by the private sector IIRC. Venezuela is about as socialist as Norway which is to say not at all.

Daily reminder that the west doesn't care about anyone living in those countries (they barely care about their own people for fuck's sale.) If they did they wouldn't let them languish in poverty while western companies made billions off of them. Being "Americanized" isn't the same thing as being "developed" (a la the Marshall plan.) Very few countries have ever actually been helped by American/western aid. Tons have been destroyed by it. The west will not save the third world. Revolution is literally the only thing that can stop the west from destroying this planet and all the people on it.

You will soon realise how being an USA cocksucer isn't that much different when Maduro was power. You think you will have food? and medicines? ahahaahaha. My country is a capitalist USA colony for 40 years now. Between 2011 and 2015 3.000 people died in the hospitals due to lack of funding.

Prove it

I don't really think this is accurate. Whats your source and what do you mean by collectivized?

thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/

This. Venezuela is just a convenient scapegoat. Though I do find it annoying they decided to start inaccurately referring themselves as socialist which just confuses things.

China is the west.

I hate the US as much as the next guy… but this "holly 3rd world and evil "west"" meme, is BS.

You appear to be mildly annoyed, my friend. Are the bourgies not hoarding?

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Venezuela never actually recovered, Chávez just used oil money to "fix" the economy.

reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/66n7no/a_redditor_goes_to_rvzla_the_subreddit_for

Some mentally ill multi-accounting guy posted shit like "THE OPPOSITION IS ACTUALLY SMALL, CIA NIGGERS ARE BEHIND EVERYTHING, PRAISE MADURO" on /r/vzla (Venezuela subreddit), and everyone told him to fuck off.

Maduro represents the military bourgeoisie

Bolivia has a nominally socialist party in government as well, and Ecuador buys into the "socialism of the 21st century" meme, so either would make good scapegoats after Venezuela is dealt with.

Requesting source, please. I haven't been able to find private/collective economy ratios for Venezuela, or any country for that matter.

I've not seen a starving USA cocksucker. Look at Eastern Europe. The USA dick feeds them plenty. I think many Venezuelans would like an exchange.

Feeds us hollywood illusions. Capitalist politicians literally talked about my country as "theoretical". Its been an hostile takeover. We've lost everything, who cares that foreign capital makes good money so the GDP is ok, we are guests in our own country, and now theyre trying to replace us with immigrants. At least they will pay back the massive debt when we are dead.

Por casualidad vives en Centro America?

A few of you are far more intelligent than the rest. Just be aware you're surrounded by less mentally capable "comrades" who will lead you astray if you allow them to control the narrative.