What does Holla Forums think of the EU?

Yes. I really wish the mods would just ditch the stupid word filter bullshit. It's not as funny as they think.

It was actually world for c h i m p o u t

I lol every time at nazis comparing the autism level of different races

Point is, of any political union of a similar size, the EU is probably the best of them all. The United States is pro-corporate lobbyist run shithole, and the Russian Federation is basically all-out fascist at this point. At least the EU tells the corporations to actually pay their taxes and play fair.

I'd remove them all except eye que, that one is hilarious

I liked your post up till then. Lesser evil mentality is shit anyways.

yeah its hilarious that one of the things you are objectively wrong at is censored

yeah in one of the memberstate, which ends up being a tax loophole
retard

T R I G G E R E D

fixed

explain

I don't know, the EU told the communists in Greece to fuck off and pay forever.

The goal of the EU is to serve corporate interest, this is not going to happen.

I Q Level gets filtered to Autism Level level

This is the thing really makes me annoyed. This attitude that if we can't have fully automated luxary gay space communism RIGHT NOW, I'm just going to turn my nose at anything positive existing in the current system.

A union that is actually willing to flex its political clout in order to not be bullied by massive corporations is a damn good start, and you can tell it ruffles a lot of feathers it drives the free-market zealots who'd sell their own mothers into slavery for quick profit into absolute mouth-foaming frenzies. It's not perfect, it probably never will be, but it's probably the best vehicle towards more meaningful socialist policies we have right now.

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I'd like to think that this has less to do with Greece electing a left wing alliance, and more to do with Greece having a deep-seeded financial corruption problem which has been going on for years. I agree that it's pathetic the way the EU has been handling this and needs to offer Greece a meaningful way out, but I don't think it's some kind of punishment for them electing Syriza; I think Greece would be getting shit on regardless of who they elected.

Really, this is more of a euro problem which I agree was a fucking mistake and should never have happened.

It will fall apart when Melenchon and Le Pen get to the second round because both of them support the Frexit.

Vast mis-characterization of Melenchon.

What do you mean? He wants France to join the Bolivian Alliance with Venezuela and Cuba.

Has Melenchon actually advocated for France leaving the union? I've never heard of that. That would be utterly foolish of him; he would actually be in a very powerful position to reform the EU into something more socialist.

Are you sure that's not just a meme? That sounds a lot like meming.

Hate it.

With Britcucks leaving, wouldn't France be like the second largest country in the Union next to Germany?

Read chapter 62 of his political program. It's not a joke.

wew

He wants France's colonial territories to join ALBA, which is a trade union those countries are apart of.

If he left the EU he'd probably try to form an economic union with southern European countries groaning under the yoke of the Frankfurt banks.

But before that comes into the picture he's going to take a real stab at renegotiating treaties with the EU in favor of social harmonization.

I always have so much trouble finding the full text of his program, can you link it?

The single currency and the ECB were both French proposals, more like, France blackmailed Germany into joining the Euro in exchange for approving the reunification.

what it will actually be like.

Fun game: State if you are actually living in a country within the EU or not when first posting in this thread.

For all of you nay-sayers, what do you propose instead of the EU? What other reasonable alternatives would allow the European peoples enough economic muscle to compete and deal on a fair basis with huge economies like USA and China? Not to mention a base for negotiating with the ever opportunistic Russians.

Whilst there is lobbying in the EU, the Union has also proven that it serves the common interests of the people within the European Union. Banning a wide range of food additives that causes cancer, standing up to Apple in regards to their constantly changing power supplies and keeping the powerful agricultural and industrial sectors in check with environmental regulations. That all passes as good in my book.

They love it.

Its a centralized authoritarian bureaucracy that acts against its own people. Just like all of leftypols favorite governments.

Im from the EU.

The EU allows you to circumvent and obscure food standards. Beef farmed in South America to very low standards can be imported through the netherlands and then labeled as sourced in the EU and sold to other countries.

Apple products still have weird non standard connectors and continually changing power supplies.

They pay 59 billion euros per year to powerful agricultural industries in massive subsidies.

I'm a Britbonger who wanted to stay in Union but is now being forced to leave (though I'm also planning to apply for an Irish passport so I can keep my citizenship and may even leave the UK for good in the near future).

I think the EU has a bit of an image problem: they operate in such a way that the goings on of the Union are not really shown as relevant in the day to day lives of ordinary citizens. You turn on the television here, and you will hardly EVER see the European Parliament; the most exposure the average Brit has to it is those are compiled video clips of Nigel Farage blowing raspberries and acting like a smug twat in big fucking round room with a bunch of people who don't speak English. I don't know if that the same in other countries in the Union, but that's how it is here. In fact, I'd be interested to know how the EU is treated in the media in other countries.

I only really know about the EU because I did A-level politics and actually wrote papers on it. Nearly everything the Brexit people said about it were just outright lies, but a lot of people believed it probably because hadn't been shown otherwise.

BUREAUCRACY EXTRAORDINAIRE,
THEY ARE INVENTING NEW FORMS OF IT AS WE SPEAK,
WATCH OUT, HIDE YOUR CHILDREN

I live in the EEA. My country voted against joining the EU, so the politicians made a special arrangement where we get to do everything the EU decides, but have no vote.
My alternative is isolationism, followed by communism.
I'm not saying the EU only have negative sides, but standing up to apple power supply changes, is less important than turning my country from social democracy to neoliberal puppet of the bourgeois.

It makes you wonder what the EU does with its 500 million EURO self promotion budget?
And the UK government spent 9 million on the remain campaign too.

Maybe they just stuck it in their back pocket?
Because they have such a lot of money over there its a drop in the ocean. Nobody would ever notice a few hundred million going missing.

Leave had: Farage, The late Tony Benn, Lin from Lins cars, Peter Hitchens, Trump and that cool guy down your local pub.

Remain had: Peter Mandleson, Tony Blair, David Cameron, top London Bankers, Obama and Lilly Allen.

It wasnt even a fair fight.

There's that one good song by Lily Allen though, 'innit?

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Indeed. And there are tons of other issues that should be addressed. The TTIP and the current CETA agreement would both force the EU to allow certain additives that are currently banned to streamline markets and prevent protectionism. Still, it speaks well for the EU that they are currently banned here and not many other places. I am sure you agree.

Of course EU law has loopholes, all do. Just look at tax laws around the world. Some loopholes are minor, but would require massive work or very invasive, bureaucratic reforms to stomp out.

Indeed. As mentioned before, some loopholes would require too much work to fully close. Apple changes their connectors and power adapters a little and claim they are entirely new and totally justified. Of course, they mostly aren't. The EU have made it so that they actually have to argue their case to a sceptical EU trade court, unlike countries like the US and oh, I forget. The rest of the world too.
Again, it might not be perfect but we are moving in the right direction.

Of course, many other places this is also the case. Do you know why? Agriculture is a very fragile business. Prices fluctuate a lot, even over the course of a year or a month. Rain at the wrong time may ruin large parts of your harvest and you will end up losing a colossal amount of money if you have an industrial farm. The EU cover the asses of some of these farmers, allow local produce to flourish and support organic agriculture, allowing us to eat produce that haven't been sprayed with colossal amounts of poison. Oh yeah, and it also secures EU an internal food supply. Pragmatists rejoice.

Danebro with a few British friends talking here.
I think the EU is treated especially bad in British media from what I hear. I suppose it might be a cultural thing, considering the British cultural identity and the good old 'muh empire' line of thinking that got Britain to where it is today. Of course tabloids always whine about the EU, in Britain and in the rest of the EU.

I agree with you though, the EU really needs to work more on it's image. I know there are projects starting up, but I have to wonder if they are properly funded - and in time - to save the EU.

Norway?
I feel with you. The continental welfare models do put the Nordic ones under pressure, but I find the best way to change something has been to work on it together, sharing thoughts, ideas and solutions, not abandoning the project all together.

It's ok, but mainly bad

People wouldnt buy the paper if it didnt reflect their opinions.

For instance the Guardian is heavily pro EU and they lose 100 million pounds per year because not enough people buy the paper to cover the costs of printing it.

Neo capitalist dictatorship

Im guessing they had some lawyers lobbying hard for that rule.

If your a big company you just hire an army of laywers and get your way. But if your a tiny innovative company you may as well close your doors.
The laywer fees are all added on to the cost of the end product we buy of course.

We voted for EU in referendum but common people shouldnt be trusted in this kind of important issues.

That was a result of British influence. They're going so hopefully things will change.

Brotip most EU corporations are not British.

No.

there is a lot wrong with this post

There's obviously a lot do be desired about it in terms of democracy and corporate shills are waaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too influential in Brussels, however i like Schengen, i like the Euro and i like the idea of European countries working together instead of fighting each other. I definitely don't want to break it up. That would also erode the geopolitical and economic leverage of every single european country, the small ones in particular, on world stage against international corporations and superpowers such as the USA, Russia and China. If the EU disintegrates even war within european countries would be possible again, as UK demonstrated recently. Just one week after Brexit was triggered UK politicians threatened Spain with full-on war over Gibraltar. European countries fighting each other instead of working together for mutual benefit and the Euro out of the way is exactly what the likes of Trump desire, because the EU *does* actually enact laws which protect EU citizens against corporate fraud and exploitation now and then. Moreover, if one european country elects a strong leftist party all citizens of the EU can benefit from it to a certain extent via a stronger leftist faction in the EU parliament.

Britain have always been the one leading the "business friendly" faction in the EU over the last 30 years, and mostly getting their way or dragging the final compromise towards a more "business friendly" position.
Brits are cancer. Good riddance.

It kind of makes me wonder that for as much as I as a Britbong wanted to stay, the rest of Europe might actually be better off now that we're leaving. The EU might actually stand a chance now of becoming way more socialist now.

.

Your exemplifying the real problem with Britains membership the EU.

The Brits have very little influence over the EU. Yet you blame their influence for your problems.

Take a look at how many hundreds of policy requests Britain made over the course of its membership which were nearly all denied.
Or take a look at the list of companies that control the EU.
ert.eu/members
6 are British. 8 are French.

When Cameron went to the EU to get his special deal that would keep Britain in the EU and they basically spat in his face and said take that back to the British people you fucking scumbag. Then they cried when Britain left. Its insane.

I agree but the entire EU is a neoliberal juggernaut. Nothing is gonna change.
I can't find the quote but it's been literally said that the EU is a wall against socialism, not by a socialist but somebody that supported the project.

We shouldnt fight against globalisation, we should fight for communism. So the EU is not relevant or actually benificial for undermining nationalism. If a nation would actually turn to communism they can still leave the EU, destroying it before that is useless and wont help us at all.

Personally, I never really saw the problem with Cameron's deal, but then again, I'm not one of these IMMIGRATION IS LITERALLY THE WORST THING EVER memers.

Straight-up bullshit. They gave him a golden deal, even more exceptions and rebates and made some small concessions on freedom of movement.

Everything they will get now during the Brexit negotions won't come close to that.

same argument and it's even worse there

please check out

No the deal was shit. He still had to let in millions if immigrants but he could force them in to poverty by cutting off their welfare. Completely useless.
All Britain wanted was to reduce immigration not fuck people over.

Exactly, we more or less got special treatment on everything, but people still kept incessantly whinging about it, and they're STILL doing it even after we voted to leave that we're not LEAVING HARD ENOUGH, as if we can basically just exist like North Korea or something.

The main problem with the Brexit narrative is it's just not clear what it ACTUALLY wants; nothing makes sense in what they're asking for unless you believe the majority of people here are just insanely racist, it's almost like a rampant disease of nihilism, a hatred of life itself more than any specific policy or political institution. And to be honest, if you've lived in certain parts of the UK, you'd understand why.

A big part of the problem of course was Cameron bigging up the deal. When Britain got nothing they were very confused because it sent the message that the EU really didnt want them to stay. Certainly not enough to actually listen to their concerns and do something to adress them.

.>>1585565

I voted Brexit.

I simply want the politicians that I vote for to live in the same country as me. So that I can post dog poo through their letterbox if they do bad things.
And I dont really want the politicians here to have a say in what happens in France or Germany or wherever.

Gas the bikes, race car now

good post

Yes

I don't know about that. Especially I fear workers rights will be diluted and that this will create larger gaps between the rich and the poor, and that way remove the social mobility we now have.
As an example. The norwegian postal-service was in 2002 made in to a stock company and are now using a Slovakian sub-company to hire polish drivers to drive in denmark for 400 euros a month, that's one fifth of what Danish or Norwegian drivers would normally make. I have little faith this can be fixed within the EU.

source: bbc.com/news/business-39196056
nrk.no/dokumentar/transport-for-luselonn-1.8313604

Great, now politicians you didn't get to vote for will create laws that the politicians you got to vote for will have to accept in the bulk in order to stay within the single market or risk an economic meltdown, just like Norway.

The problems is people's concerns on this matter didn't really make actual sense. If you actually ask people about it, the majority will either be openly racist or not have an coherent explanations at all. People didn't talk about policies the EU made which didn't like or how the EU could be meaningful reformed, it was all just weird fucking memes. I've said early the majority of people here didn't probably didn't really know anything about the EU, which I don't really believe the vote had much to do with the EU itself; it may simply have been symptom of more deep-rooted problems.

A few years back, hardly anyone even talked about the EU; hardcore Euroskepticism was a really fringe idea mostly only confined to those already in fringes the political class.

Nigel shill please. Cameron wanted out of the European Human Rights convention. Why would anyone want that in the first place. He wanted to fuck up the UK the working class harder than the EU would allow him to do. All British politicians did nothing else when Britain was still EU member: lobbying against citizen's rights and worker's rights and lobbying for more muh privileges for the upper class. Now the Tories can do exactly what they want in Britain, because UK is out.

I guess you dont keep up with politics.
Its pretty much been decided that the UK will not remain a member of the single market but will have access to it.

Forget it. There will be no special deal for UK.

Bwahaha. Keep on dreaming. The last thing I read is that May admitted they will keep FoM after Brexit.

Heres how it went down

Thats what I said.
The Brits will simply have access to it and not be a member. Basically the same deal as most countries in the world.

A few German car manufacturers will lose their jobs in that situation because Japanese cars will totally out compete German ones if they default to IMF rules. But they will manage im sure.

Im not sure what strange places you have been reading.

Lol, after the the accession of the eastern member states the UK was free to implement a years-long moratorium on freedom of movement which France and Germany did. Why is the EU at fault here? Why didn't the UK government persue better social housing policies?

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-freedom-movement-can-continue-says-boris-johnson-a7672741.html

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/article-50-brexit-latest-theresa-may-freedom-of-movement-after-leave-eu-a7657111.html

Just look at that backpaddling!

You can't make all the business and corrupt politicians socialist or accept it.
You can't make one place in the world coexist midst capitalism.

EU is cancer. First they will give money, but then they will say to some countries they have to dismantle agriculture..because France and Spain are the agriculture, so they will establish quotas of production since EU rules say you can't be in competition with other members.
Then they will say you have to dismatnle your metalurgic industry, because that's Germany role.
After the funds end, your country will be comletely depdent on foreign countries and used by everyone as a place to go on vacations by filth retarded germans/dutch/french/british fags who come here to get wasted, take pictures like it's a fucking zoo and having sex in public or their retired olf cunts come her to buy vacations houses.

So it's important to keep voting for the communist party, they have been always againt the EU, ever since we fist joined and everything they said it would happen..it did. With their motto : "A patriotic and leftist way" i shall say: Fuck the EU and fuck you all other europeans. I want you all out! out!

Ignoring the clickbait headline both articles talk about freedom of movement potentially continuing temporarily during a transition period.
That isnt backpedaling but it does indicate how slow the exit process will be.

People living in the nice green parts of the UK are reluctant to pave over them and build huge grey tower blocks so they resemble the shit parts of the UK. They have some of the strictest planning and wildlife conservation laws around.

Suure,'temporarily'. Classic trickle truth.

They've been told everything's the EUs fault by politicians and newspapers since the EU formed.
They think they're going to get rich by fishing and eating bent bananas.
They're descending into total fucking madness.
It's brilliant.

What an epic story of leftist struggle against capitalism!

Support for the EU is just about the best qualifier for ferreting out Liberal entryists in leftist movements right now.

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A replacement for the West's lost colonies.

Every single one of its "principles" is a ploy to plunder the peripheries, with token redistribution to bribe the local elites.

Hating on the EU without strategy is the main marker of nationalist collaborators that are communist in name only.

Great for us that there is a strategy then. Fucking leaving.

You made a mistake in your very first line.

Britain joined the EU in 73 without asking the British people anything.

Then in 75 when there was a referendum the EU was sold to the British as a trading union. Not a political, fiscal or customs enforcement union.
A lot of the older people in the EU (the group most in favor of Brexit) still call it the 'common market'. Which was the propaganda at the time.

I wont pretend Im not worried about that.

They gave a fuck about the vote in the upcoming referendum you moron. It wasnt out of kindness it was about getting the people to vote for them.

People like you will be the first to hang on the day of the rope.

everyone has "access to the single market" that means nothing
i bought car parts from russia and they're under eu sanctions fffs

stop posting bollocks kid

There was some rumbling from the remainers that Britain wouldnt have access to the single market.

no u

What a major step towards communism, have fun with increasing nationalist posturing everywhere. Should I remind you what killed the early communist movement?

Also equating leftism with protectionism will just embed capitalism as the only possible window of discussion. It doesnt help us at all.

Probably something to do with trans folk or genders?

Nu-Labourists → GULAG please.

no, it was about being a member of the single market. "access" is a given like i said.
so you can trade with the eu it will just be more expensive and bureaucratic for both parties

Implying I ever claimed that the EU is not shit, but the alternative is a shitty strategic step. Its like blowing up a few bank buildings and thinking you took a step closer to communism.

Unlike joining a new NATO with expressed Neoliberal goals and a siamese twin in the form of the IMF/ECB sewed on at the hip.
>have fun with increasing nationalist posturing everywhere.
Unlike the EU rumblings about a democracy-spreading EU army and disarming the european populace.
Or the fact that a good half of the new Nationalist movements in Europe's rethoric are a response to EU policy.
The EU is quite protectionist when it's convenient so this is a silly non sequitur. It's goals remain staunchly Neoliberal.

I think access is a given too but project fear (the 59 million the EU and UK wasted campaigning for Bremain) definitely wanted people to believe it could happen.

Except the leave camp said the UK would remain in the single market and thus get the easy access you have now. Not the expensive bureaucratic access you're likely to get in the future. So you see, there's different types of access. Is stupidity a requirement for being a brexiter?

yeah so what? Embracing a government just as capitalist, probably even more dependant on free trade whose justification is completely nationalistic is so much better? Also an EU army would be perfect, it would never manage to actually do anything major.

You missed the point completely, I will assume you are doing that on purpose.

So we should support that as leftists? By following along with the rightwing discourse?

Who said that in the leave camp?

Heres one from the remain camp suggesting the UK would not get access:
politico.eu/article/secret-brexit-memo-uk-wont-get-single-market-access/

We'll show you how it's done, murrica.

PS heres my original post on single market access so you dont keep trying to reinterpret what Im saying:

Where communists are actually viable, unlike in the EU.
You're fucking retarded, or more likely a Liberal. France already acts world police in their ex-colonies with military actions and the exact same thinking to "spread democracy", i.e. markets open to expoitation, is behind the push for an EU army.
By not supporting a fucking organization that is:
100% Neoliberal.
Looking to become a second NATO.
Has it's economic policy written by the largest banks in the world.
Marginalizes any economically leftwing voices in the one part of the world where communism is actually viable.

Excerpts from "How to spot a liberal".

Nigel Farage in one of the debates.
I mean I knew he was a open liar at the time but still people believed it, there were live debate threads on 4pol and people lapped it up.

EU marginalizes nothing, you are projecting and think that you can pick apart capitalism one institution at a time.

Hmm I dont remember that from the debates. Would be nice to see a clip.

I just googled and its mostly him getting lambasted for saying the UK doesnt need to be a member of the single market:

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-says-britain-doesnt-7990243
cityam.com/235159/eu-referendum-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-says-he-doesnt-want-to-be-part-of-the-european-single-market

you're retarded.

Podemos:
Spain - 3rd largest party, influential in almost all government decisions.
EU - 5 seats in EU parliament, literally no influence whatsoever as the elected Parliament doesn't have the power to set policy only the Commission has, which is deliberately setup so that it can never be genuinely Leftist (needs approval of national heads of state).
Never mind the fact that the EU founders were openly anti-Communist and that the EU progenitors basically wanted a theocracy in order to oppose the Soviet.

Wow the EU parliament has no influence, what a surprise. If Podemos gains power and has a strategy that will genuinly help socialism and then leaves the EU I am supportive, before that its just riding some shitty populism wave that will never change anything.

In other words you unironically support a NATO 2.0 project.

Like I said, it's a great way of ferreting out Liberal entryists.

As it currently exists it is an atrocity. It literally locks member states into austerity and a neo-gold standard via the Euro. I's done nothing but undermine existing social protections in Western Europe after opening up to Eastern Europe.

On the geopolitical scale, it also has a long record of failure: pushing Ukraine into civil war, supporting the breakup of Yugoslavia, inability to keep members from joining the disaster of Iraq 2003. More recently, the European Court of Human Rights' pronouncements on various refugee related issues helped spark the current method of crossing the sea in rickety boats, killing thousands.The inability to tackle smuggling networks and to stop people from dying has been a travesty.

That said, a European super-state of some kind seems like useful, as a kind of minimal geographic are in which to establish socialism in one country. But before it gets to that, it'll also be needed as a counterweight to other world powers still dominated by neoliberalism or even fascism, and to fight megacorps and tax heavens.

So a new and better EU if we get it, but we should be willing to risk blowing it up if it is not on offer.

I am.
Those are indeed things a large state would do, but it would be a poor showing if the EU didn't even manage that.

Sort of agree, but we can't go on like we have economically.

Have fun with seeing socialism die again with a bright flash in the pan fit of nationalism.

Neo Liberal Banker/Corporatist Dictatorship it has to be dismantled.

First of all the EU is a nationalist construct and they've been attempting to build it every step of the way. It's why they kick out politicians who won't honor the EU flag.
Secondly some minor nationalisms, which are all growing far bigger than they ought to thanks to the EU, are a small thing compared to a Federal Nationalism with global force projection and a stated goal of spreading Neoliberalism.
Third and finally the very height of Socialist movements where when the opposition were in the "pan fit of nationalism".