Not smart enough for Marxism

No matter how dumbed down it is I don't think I can understand the law of value, and there's no way someone like me has the attention span to read all three volumes of Das Kapital.

I think it's saying that all production depends on labor (including existing means of production which are figuratively speaking made of labor), but I'm not sure how that connects to exploitation or the ethical case that keeps being made.

The capitalist does no labor, so he only takes part of the workers product, hoping to only leave what is necessary for the worker to survive, but the capitalist didn't produce this, so it's exploitation!

But doesn't that assume that the workers would have produced that type of final product in those numbers in the absence of the capitalist? Share holders of a factory are responsible for hiring a good CEO to coordinate the labor, and if the division of labor doesn't proceed just right in modern production, the labor input will be wasted, so it would seem like capitalists do have decisions to make that determine how much can be produced, and not just merely taking. If that was instead the case then it implies that you could run a factory with no organization at all, and just have random workers come in and perform just as well. It seems like something you could test on a business level and see whether shareholder/owner decisions mattered or not. You could test them against co-ops, and see whether co-ops take over organically or not.

I can tell I've got it wrong though and you have a good answer for this. I just don't really understand it. I don't think I'm ever going to be smart enough to get it.

I want to be a communist, I really do, Holla Forums. Please save me.

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libcom.org/forums/general/das-kapital-manga-11062014
theguardian.com/social-enterprise-network/2014/mar/14/co-operatives-compete-big-business
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OP, are you just trying to jump straight into the books without prior preparation?

Lenin himself wouldn't of been able to grasp Marx had he done that. Luckily you have more resources than Lenin. Try and watch some youtube videos on the LTV - Muke has a good 30 min one, and then there's the much longer play list going every part by Kapitalism 101. After that you might wanna look into David Harvey's lectures, and the first actual books you should be reading are Wage Labour & Capital and Value Price and Profit - the summaries of Capital 1 by Marx.

Good luck comrade.

Congratulations you have read more theory and understand Marx better than a majority of people on this board.

...

Yes, the capitalist does play some role in making the workers more efficient, but the workers could also do this themselves. Management work isn't inherently more important (a factory with nothing but managers obviously doesn't work) and they shouldn't necessarily be paid more than the workers. So ideally - workers and managers should have equal say about who gets paid how much. But under capitalism, the workers get no say in this at all.


I'm sure you could at least read the manga version: libcom.org/forums/general/das-kapital-manga-11062014

This sounds kind of fascist to me.

Thanks guys.

This is what I'm having trouble with. If co-ops are free to form, wouldn't they outcompete traditional businesses, since they'd have no capitalists leeching on them?

If the workers could do it themselves, but haven't, this probably means there are some laws preventing democratic businesses from operating, and that most existing co-ops are a sham or handicapped so they don't outcompete traditional capitalist businesses.

Good animeposter. I like you.

Regarding co-ops, they are difficult to set up under capitalism for a number of reasons. Reason one being that pretty much every industry niche is already being filled by some megacorp with an inexhaustible supply of wealth and the power of the state in their back pocket.

It's also complicated to set up for legal reasons - our legal framework was designed for capitalists after all. So most co-ops as they exist now (like Mondragon) are only partly owned by the workers, and the workers don't get much say in how the company is run.

Basically, the whole system of production is not weighted in our favor and w're being ripped off.

At least, that's what I gleamed.

Congrats you are a leninist now OP

marxists are spooked. always obsessed with spooks like class, a literal social construct. the only thing truly tangible and real and talent and merit and that is why technocracy is the future of humanity, a future almost none of you will be apart of.

Also,no OP, the CEO is not the capitalist, he is a petty bourg, the capitalist makes use of the bourgeoisie law of property rights and credit to keep part of the profit

He doesnt have to labour

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But when co-ops do establish themselves they still face certain obstacles. While many co-ops have been known to be quite successful it comes at a cost. Since capitalist businesses are always expanding co-ops have to do the same to stay in competition. Under capitalism, part of the workers surplus value is redirected towards investment, but in a co-op there is no surplus value (or less of it) since the workers are getting paid for (or more fair) wages. So in order to reinvest in the company - the workers have to take lower pay which most workers are not eager to. Indeed, the whole point of setting up a co-op is so that they could get decent pay! So there is the inherent problem here of workers' pay and conditions being limited by the need to compete with capitalists. Co-ops as they exist under capitalism are still a nice step forward, but a far cry from the kinds of worker-managed enterprises advocated by mutualists, syndicalists and market socialists.

This is an uninformed post. Coop workers often make more than counterparts in corporations all the while preserving capital for expansion.

This poster is right though. Already established corporations often have enough surplus to out compete upcoming coops.


theguardian.com/social-enterprise-network/2014/mar/14/co-operatives-compete-big-business

I'll try to dumb it down as much as I can:

With the advent of capitalism (or rather mercantilism) the first thinkers asked themselves the question: Why does shit cost money? Well, one of the ideas was that labor has inherent value and therefore something which takes one year to produce has much more value than something that is produced much more easily and quickly. This is what we call the labor theory of value. Sounds good, until we encounter a situation where this idea doesn't hold. There's the thought experiment of the mud pie factory, which produces pies made out of mud under heavy labor and time and yet no one would ever pay anything for mud pies. This was seen as an outright refutation of the labor theory of value and here we introduce: marginalism.

Marginalism is the idea that in fact the price of a commodity is decided by how much it is worth to the rest of society and its price was determined by what they would pay for it, based on the amount of satisfaction they can derive from it and of course how accessible it is. It is (or variations of it) what most economics even today still ascribe to.

But this doesn't tell the complete picture either. Now, Marx wasn't wrong in the concept he developed, but he wasn't completely thorough either and the law of value kept him busy for decades (and he ultimately could never finish developing it in its entirety). He took the labor theory of value and adopted it into his understanding of economics, which here first of all must be understood, just like everything else in Marxism, for example class, as a social relation. It argues that the worth of product is dependent on the socially necessary labor to produce it, except that Marx not just looks at the value a commodity in itself has as a result of it, but also that a commodity is never just produced and sold in an idealist scenario where you can blend out all the other influences and factors of societal organization. Therefore values fluctuate and are also dependent on the social relations (relations of productions) under which they arise and with the law of value then Marx supposes that capitalism operates in such a way that certain classes emerge in society who are putting their labor into the production of a commodity and the capitalist then takes the commodity, sells it on the market and extracts surplus value from it. Now of course this surplus value must come from somewhere, and this is where the injustice of the relationship between bourgeoisie and proletariat lies.

But how can Marxism hold true when we in the beginning established marginalism to be the superior theory? Well, today, we have a better understanding of Marxian "economics" (I put this in quotation marks because Marxian economics is not something that can be compared to liberal economics, which Marx viewed as a scam that serves to justify capitalist organization of society) in that we do not reject either. The core concepts of marginalism hold true in that the price of a commodity is influenced by what it costs to produce in raw materials as well as that consumer demand is needed to get rid of commodities on the market and consumer demand also influences the price. However, we also understand that Marx made the right observations:

First, the prices of raw materials are influenced by the labor put into it (they don't appear out of thin air after all and someone must work to generate them), second, we understand that consumer demand is not rational but a social relation that can be artificially generated, influenced and not accurately measured by the capitalist and we also understand that labor in itself must in fact have a value, for two simple and obvious reasons: First, the fact itself that a capitalist pays his employer to perform a task must demonstrate that the employer's labor has a value to him, and second, furthermore this value that is put into the commodity through labor must influence the price of the product and this is must ultimately be where the capitalist extracts surplus value.

I wasn't saying that they get paid less than non-coop workers do - just less than they could be making without having to compete against capitalists.

start with hegel

Porky is efficent in only one thing and that is making profit no matter what cost. Sometimes it works wonders and soetimes it destroys lives.

If people can not organise their own productive forces around principle of betttering their lives and that there needs to be somekind of dumb idol, competition, market whatever you want to call it, then I would say we are doomed.

CEOs own large amounts of stock 99% of the time

This is the reality of modern post-industrialized economies. Unless you are born into muh privilege and access to capital you are forced to work for a tiny amount of money or else starve. The result is this is that even in an era of extremely efficient mass production and factory farming techniques resulting in food surpluses masses of people live in desperate poverty.

Lumpenproletariat NEET with petite bourgeois shareholder tendencies is the best class m8s.

What did this Jew mean by this?