Newfriend who is mostly right wing libertarian here:

I couldn't fit this much idiocy in one post if I tried.

Who said this?

And since you said "No one", I will disprove your whole statement by pointing to Tesla. Wow, logic. This is the level of debate you are currently on, btw

Also pure ideology, since you assume that the only thing that could universally motivate a person to do something is money, just because you've particularly experienced this under capitalism, where everything is commodified. Literally incapable of thinking outside of the current system.

If Tesla existed, how is egalitarian possible? If Tesla is possible, how can egalitarianism exist?

You're never entitled to the fruits of action, you're only entitled to the work itself.

I'm for equals rights, not for equal outcome, and I hate all people equally. Sometimes I just think I should stop using this flag.

Egalitarianism doesn't mean some random retard is equal to Tesla in intelligence or talent, it means he/she shouldn't have to suffer simply for NOT being Tesla.

There are rewards besides material
But yes, there can be different material rewards under socialism if necessary to encourage creativity and hard work (which capitalism hyper exaggerates)

Wew. No wonder everyone defected to the West.
Until leftists do not figure out a way to give a just reward to intellectual technical workers, all their societies will be doomed to fail.

This is why the West has so much invention, and North Korea and Cuba starve.

And so no one will ever know the joy of freedom and benevolence
What you don't realize is that everyone works for free, and there is no causal link between work and my nervous system and bio-survival tickets.

You don't get the concept of worker control over the means of production, do you? There are no wages. You get the value of what you produce.

I work with my MIND!

You can't wrap your head around the idea of a world without wages, can you?

By putting them in R&D. Duh. This shit ain't hard.

Oh yes, these people who make all of their profits off of the work of others will leave those ungrateful workers and go somewhere with their worthless fiat currency and live on their own without all of the things that their former workers make. Uh-huh.

No it's an abstract personal property not private property.

No, intellectual property is claimed by a person who does not personally use it but makes a profit from its use by others. It is definatively private property.

This is like telling Uber drivers they shouldn't complain about their earnings because they aren't getting paid wages, just getting the value of what they produce with their car, effectively their means of production.

I mean that is literally what they are doing right now and why everything is made in China and Bangladesh now so I am not sure how this is supposed to be contradictory

intellectual workers are workers too, and are exploited by the bourgeoisie aswell

nobody here thinks all workers should be paid the same

They're still exploiting workers, idiot.

Ok. Say there's not enough things for everyone. A priority system must be built. Some way of knowing who gets thing and who doesnt get a thing.
Capitalism solved this with a currency, how do you decide who starves first?

Ok so basically any bullshitter can say this now. Imagine an annoying pretentious abstract artist or some shit. He wants the same pay as the guy who…. invented a fucking portals technology. Or cured cancer. This artist thinks his work is equally important, desirable, demanding, worthy.
Capitalism figured out with supply and demand who gets who. How are you going to do this?

What if they dont like it there? Ever met an engineer who did engineering as a hobby? I didnt. And I go to a school that makes future engineers. I also talked with quite a few of them. Not a single one told me he does it out of hobby tho.

CHEKA'D
QUADS OF TRUTH HAVE SPOKEN

They are going to other workers you jackass. They are utilizing localized poverty to depress wages globally. That isn't taking their toys and going home. It is moving assets around in the same system to maximize profit margins.

But Uber drivers aren't given the full value of their labor. Uber takes a cut of their profits and employs shitty business practices that negatively affect their drivers.

...

I just also want to say that I come here in good faith. I believe that all systems that fail to protect the rights of their inventors/engineers, are doomed to failure.

I think that this is the problem that has to be addressed first, or arguably the most important people are going to desert society.
Feel free to explain me otherwise but I dont think that we owe our existence equally to manual laborers, and to industrial intellectuals.

and with that statement I will officially stop taking this board seriously.

It's not risk when the state guarantees you benefits that an individual does not have.

Who builds the shit the intellectual designs?

If you just want the inventors/engineers to be ruling class, you should check the Technocrat Movement or Transhumanism.

The problem isn't the discrepancy between manual and mental laborers, it's between laborers and capitalists.

how long till you start posting helicopter memes?

Stop. using. abstract. scenarios. Are we talking about food, or are we taking about computers? Is it something that can be rationed, or not? Can others help or is it just a local production problem, and what is causing it?

You are just talking so many ideological factors for granted, and leave even more questions open.

You're thinking about wages again.

Anecdotal evidence from within capitalism, you're not even trying.

Although it's reaaaaly difficult to believe that you came in good faith, tell me what are there "rights" that have to be protected.

And how do you expect "inventors/engineers" to live by their own? They are part of the labor force, don't fall for the "labor = manual labor" meme.

Who designs the manual labor shit?

...

…Robots?
Unless you live in a third world shithole, industrial production is for the most part free of human hands.

The "intellectual". Who cut down the trees and processed them into paper so the intellectual could read a book to acquire his knowledge? It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

There is no requirement for everyone to be paid the same no matter what you lolbertarian pleb. Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production, which means the people involved in an enterprise have equally split stake in ownership, but when it comes to pay they are not paid in salary or wages, they are paid solely via splitting profits.

This does not have to be equally split, in Socialism there is the maxim of "To each according to his contribution" which entails that the more one contributes to an enterprise, as in what kinds of things they do, how much the chip in for overhead costs, etc. the larger share of profits they will receive as compensation instead of being limited to a few bucks per hour or a certain amount per year no matter how much work is actually done in that timespan as in the capitalist system.

This ensures hard workers are fairly compensated while slackers are incentivized to pick up the slack or make due with what they do get. A construction worker who drywalls, plasters, and applies siding to a house will receive a larger share of profit, say 33%, whereas the foreman who just orders people around without doing any real work and sits on his ass all day will receive maybe 15%, and the rest of the profits will be split accordingly among all other workers involved according to contribution; so on so forth. With social ownership, there is no "the boss" who sits in an office diddling his secretary getting wealth off of taking disproportionate shares of profit while the employees make peanuts doing real labor.

This is true tho, until the industrial revolution, made possible by capitalism and the enlightment, scientific and technological advances went at snail's pace

...

I already think that we are ruled by technocracy. I believe that system is actually fair, it's just that the poor suck because of their own life choices
Think about it, 99% of fortune 500 companies are tech giants. General Motors, General Electric, Toshiba, Google, Facebook, SpaceX, Tesla, etc etc etc, all technocratic meritocratic, fair, legitimate, common sense, earned, EARNED wealth

That is what I believe. 'The rich' (really just extremely competent people) are going to engineer a plague, a nuke, something, and wipe out jealous and angry masses. Think about it. They are wizards. WIZARDS. They can talk across planets. They can track you, know exactly where you are and who you spoke to. They pass the laws even now. They run the military. They run the economy. They can move thousand tons of material, with two or three people.

Shitty societies made out of babies who can't self sacrifice collapse. Nbd.

I think the issue here is that you think of yourself as an individual, where you are no such thing. Not yet. An individual doesn't cling to his action, and let it define him. He just Does.

Your merits and demerits, both, are shit. Just work, and the results come automatically. Your expectations of reward will DESTROY YOU.

Take the example of sweeping the floor. You sweep the floor, someone comes and thanks you, Oh what a wonderful person!
If you're attached to results you think you are a wonderful person, full of qualifications which make you the best fit for just sweeping the floor.

Then when someone else comes and tells you you missed a spot, and that you're shit at sweeping, you're not even getting paid, then you get frustrated and depressed.

Rather, just sweep the floor. Do it to the best of your ability, then hands off. In ancient societies, they called this type of work 'heaven'.

Racist lie

pretty much these two posts. The over all goal of communists is to abolish these shit factory jobs so every body can spend their life in academia leaning to take the place of your precious "elite few". People don't innovate for profit alone, and often large cash rewards result in poorer preferences (pic related). In a society of lessened scarcity we will treat innovation like a game.

OP's arguments so far
This is the equivalent of people asking you about roads, or selling drugs to kids for the millionth time. Don't you get tired of the same shit every time?

The fuck it did! Things have a particular way of not getting to where they are needed in capitalism. They only go where it is most profitable for them to go. That is a massive inefficiency and a source of profound waste within the capitalist system.

Why would anyone need to starve in a world that produces enough food to feed billions more people than it already has? Famines do not need to exist. They are not a natural function of an industrialized world.

He gets the value of what he produces. He is not paid wages.

You can't be serious. Capitalism elevates cheap hacks who fill a marketing niche (albeit usually temporarily) while leaving talented and creative artists in poverty. Pop art sucks specifically because it was created to sell.

Then see if some other group needs another man. That's another great thing about a world where production is done for use instead of exchange–there is always work to do.

...

Why would they kill their cheap workforce who are also their consumers?

Try to sell that fantasy to Disney, but don't be surprised when they take your notes to the patent office to claim it after telling you that they could not use it.

art is not a job
but people would be able to properly devote themselves to intellectual pursuit when social labor is minimized (and the incentive to reduce labor time doesn't exist under capitalism)

We want workers to own the means of production democratically. Shares are not involved, as that is something to do with markets. There are no markets under Socialism. Apart from market Socialism I guess.

Everyone directly involved in creating the engine.

Yes, why wouldn't they?

Well if we're going by labour vouchers, then I suppose the worker who made the engine could receive extra labour vouchers for his contribution if he so pleased.

I don't even know why we're assuming such an amazing engine is produced and no one has the idea to just…build some more…but whatever. No, everyone can now use this engine. Why would you create an engine that improves productivity so much more and then not use it to improve productivity?

What risk is involved here? There's risk involved in Capitalism due to investment of capital, but you don't have that under Socialism.

OP, answer me

He does have a point though, at least in some sense. What he's talking about is pretty much communism of the bourgeois, the only problem is that he thinks that they will keep the "inventor/engineers" around.

Jesus, read your own books. Usage value. They can continue mass production, but just for themselves. Instead of producing for the market, they produce for personal production.
Just like Marx said ffs.

ok I might be wrong in believing this, but I really do believe that work force can be fully automated, I have seen things, I have seen German and Japanese factories making cars from seatbelt to a fucking tire 100% automatically without a soul in the building, I have seen self driving cars, I have seen drones working storage houses, I think that at least 50% of human population is no longer needed to these people

Exactly. Since robots and the material they are made out of are produced by manual laborers that must mean all of society contributes equally to the robotics industry.

if the rich do that they've basically established communism

But it isn't. Humans have been innovating for it's entire existence. The fact that it's been sped up by technology created under a capitalist economic model doesn't negate the rest of human history.

For themselves. Why would they need to share it with the rest of the proles?

So the bourgeoisie are going to establish socialism? What are we arguing about then? Our betters have already concluded socialism to be the next step.

Nigger, I myself will personally build by my own hand the first robot which exponentionaly builds other robots. Sorry for calling you a nigger but dont make me angry. You do not need to oppress trillion half literate manual laborers to do this.

Communism of the bourgeois. Thank you. I was looking for this. A name. This story of mine has a name. Communism of the bourgeois. Just instead of bourgeois, engineers and industrial intellectuals.
I really do think that the rest of us are not needed anymore. And also when it comes to raw physical brute force, I also think that this small % of population is more capable than the rest of us, who dont know how to build missiles.

There will be a revolution. Revolution of the engineers, and similar types.

Go back to history class. There was plenty of innovation done before capitalism came into existence a few hundred years ago. The guy that invented the vaccine for polio refused to patent it so it could spread freely and get rid of the polio epidemic much faster than if he were to go through the patent process and make everyone who wanted to use it get pay or get permission.

So, this is some Technocrat post-scarcity system, not even capitalism anymore, much like a full-automated communism but for engineers. This remind the Venus Project of Jacques Fresco but without the genocide thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco

lol, I watched a few of his documentaries 7 years ago when I was in highschool, I know that guy, I think I draw most of the inspiration from him

but also with genocide because of the pond is small and has too many crocodiles

Most inventions in the private sector are due to an incredible amount of R&D in the public sector. These researchers do not reap the capital benefits of their intellectual contributions, but are instead satisfied with their modest wages and intellectual accolades (ie publications).

The archetypal inventor is really only applying knowledge already gained in such a manner that it generates profits. This is not the concern of a socialist society, for a socialist economy would instead focus on creation of use-values to meet societal needs, as opposed to the accumulation of capital.

OP, answer me (You)

But the engineers don't own what they make, nor can they implement it by themselves. If anything, they'll be lucky enough to be kept around as tech-slaves.

What makes you think that they'd be the rulers?

Yeah but the guy who invented the post-it is a millionaire soooooo

If you ask me, under communism, everyone would be technically educated, so we can continue automating and developing technology. Eventually, people would work like 2 hours a day. Heck, people would spend more time teaching the next generation than building, maintaining and operating machines once automation gets far enough.

Oh it shows, user, it shows.

But why do you want to kill people if the robots can sustain everyone with a post-scarcity economy?

exception to the rule

Well, I guess we have a different opinion on 'the system'. I dont think it's perfect, I just dont think that Westerners are born into ball and chain slavery. I do not think that our situation is, dad got sentenced to 4 generations in Best Korea, and no matter what we do, we are spending our lives in the gulag no matter what.

I think that majority of people today are somewhere near where they deserve to be. Sure few rich, especially banks, are still taking their cuts, but for the large part I believe that the system is… fair enough. Certainly nothing to bitch and moan about. Hard work will still get you far, never met a starving medical doctor, or an engineer, or a chemist…..

Just wait as the job market gets flooded with intelligent laborers. Everyone goes to university nowadays and intelligentsia are gradually merging with the proletariat.

How was he wrong. He is like a wise grandpa I never had. I dont know, I think what he said makes perfect sense. Kinda like Marx but trillion times easier to follow because visual info is easier to ingest than words.

Capitalism will give rise to these industrialists, who will become so self sufficient and more effective at EVERYTHING (food production, military, diplomacy, economy, you name it), they could just get rid of the rest of us. For existential purposes.

It is a common misconception that science and technology are driven forward by a few "enlightened" minds, but in reality, there is an enormous community. Most of the people I know in it, some of whom are brilliant, acknowledge that the narrative commonly pushed, of sudden insights allowing someone to solve a problem on which little progress has been made, is a lie manufactured by the media. The community is essential, and often forgotten by those not in it. Most of the people whose discoveries make modern products possible do not get much compensation.

People in general are easily controlled, which is one thing capitalism excels at. The titans of industry are generally not particularly good engineers, and instead just hire a bunch of them. The engineers, ultimately, will be as screwed as the laborers, unless you think they will somehow attain class consciousness and overthrow those above them.

Yes I would agree but not completely. Everyone does go to the university today, sure. But over here at my engineering university, we only got like 300 students this year, and we have something like 50+ % dropout rate.
Meanwhile there are art, philosophy, all kinds of other unis, where they accept 50.000+ students, where dropout rate is 1%, and where JOBS DO NOT EVEN EXIST.

So I dont know.

You sure about that? You know, if we don't have equal opportunity, we can't barly talk about a "fair" system. And it's not like it's getting worse, under the contradictions of the system which socialism is supposed to resolve.

And how is this in your interest. Sounds to me like you should want to be a communist, if were to recognize what's in your interest and what isn't.

the plot of atlas shrugged, really make you think.

Small advances are made every day by the average scientist. But the big revolutions in a field depend on the rare geniuses. A genius can do in 10 years what everyone else in the same field couldn't in a hundred.
True. Problem is, you can't pay for the R&D + manufacturing + sales out of pocket so you either work for someone who can, or you try anyway, go broke and then go work for that guy.

kek just realized this thread is literally Ayn lmao shilling

Your argument really convinced me I was being wrong.

In my interest? Who am I, lol? It might not be in my interest, but a lot of things arent in my interest. There is a hungry bear out there, that would eat me if it could. It's not in my interest, but I dont think that me being angry at hungry bears eating people is going to change anything.

I talk with a few people who are published, who put out loads of patents and works, and my university invites Pultzer, Fields and Nobel laureates to give talks. Scientific community is there, but eureka moment is real. Most of the people I met here (mostly mathematicians, engineers, chemists and physicists of all kinds, and computer people too) believe in 'the titans' and not in the community.

Science unis and institutes are also elitist as fuck. Wanna run a project or whatever? Too bad we got 1 lab and too much applicants, guy with the best record gets to do his thing and pick his assistants.

Check out this video friend, it is a pretty strong debunking of the idea people need monetary incentives to be creative. I personally still think its a good idea to reward people people who put high levels of effort into their work/education with material benefit as well as public praise/accolades. Regardless this idea that people wont invent anything if they aren't receiving millions of dollars from patents is pure capitalist ideology.
youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

litterally wat?

we aren't necessarily against this. If your good then you get prestige under socialism. But the whole profit seeking side to innovation is still out of the question.

this might be a fun watch
youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

So I guess my university is different, then. I won't pretend that a lot of work that gets put out isn't mediocre, but I find it hard to believe anyone sincerely thinks magnates of industry are geniuses of the kind you describe.

dammit you beat me to it

My apologies, I thought it was obvious that I was referring to
If you are not interested in being "gotten rid of", then I guess it would be in your rational interest to oppose the system that would lead you and me to this fate.

Also, you seem to be backpedaling - but don't worry, there's no shame in being wrong, in fact it's quite a relief to not force yourself to defend a faulty ideology.

Yeah I saw this in the webm thread really evidence that our current incentive structure is for benefiting the rich not improving efficiency. Its also awesome how all the studies he cites were funded by libertarian think tanks who were clearly hoping to get results that confirmed their ideological presumptions but instead got the opposite.

Patent system rewards the capitalist

NEVER THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT!

But I still fail to see how can we stop this new revolution that I think is going to happen.

Think about it. They can communicate unimaginable distances away. They can wipe out a billion people in an hour. They can make a magical doors, that open just as you are about to walk trough them. They can make this magical box that tells people things. A few of them can build more cars (and tanks I imagine..) than the rest of us can combined.

Just as the merchant class overpowered feudal warlord class, and just as feudal warlord class overpowered celestial emperor class, this new technological class will overpower the merchant class I think.

ultimately, thoughts are cheap imho. Workers produce most of the worlds wealth, the "big innovator titans" are important but educating the proles and giving them the means and time to innovate will take us light years.

But if 'the titan' can produce as much as the proles, and if 'the titan' can wipe out the prole……..
Why would titans not wipe out proles?

Feudals needed peasants. Merchants needed workers. Tech titans dont need shit.

It could go that way, but (since I'm part if them) I'm betting on the side of humanity and the proles of the world

above

and, I don't feel they are genocidal monsters. The system is evil but the men are men nonetheless. If we could give all a good life and better humanity, why waste time killing tones of people if we could just explore the galaxies

I still fail to understand why you think that they will own, be able to build or control these things.

And you don't actually belive this is currently the case, don't you? As of now, this is most certainly not the case (except for the communicate over distance, bc internet). So a revolution, of some abstract kind, is still possible, but I do believe that some point in the future it might be too late.

The way I see it, those with the resources will use the engineering to achieve these things, but they (as you already have shown) will do all they can to prevent them from taking power. Also, they're barley a strong, unified or coordinated force, at least as of now.

Well for the same reason ai would wipe out humanity. Existential reasons. What if the masses get angry? Why risk it? Why even have the mass, if you dont need the mass?

That can all easily change, we already have these… corporations of the private sector that could become a proto class of these industrialists who do not require workers.
These people without a doubt have much higher analytic capacities (since autism levels is taken ayy lmao) than anyone else in society, they can organically coordinate and unify for the sole purpose of seeing workers who are no longer needed coordinating and unifying, but seeing it even before they do, and get ahead.

property in all forms is a spook. if a new invention is created then people should be able to use it when they feel it suits their self interest. when multiple people need to use it then planning use between multiple individuals can be made. praxis > theory

muh equally poor meme. oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four

and even if there wasnt enough wealth going around, youre pretending as though slapping a price tag on it makes it ok automatically, and youre perfectly fine with going back to knowing your place within the market.

this also

now you get class warfare m80, our fight is for the soul of humanity

But where is prole organized effort? All I see is corporate overlords passing laws in smoke filled rooms, there's no democracy, there's no unions, there's no rights for everyone, there's not a single sign of proles organizing or doing shit, if tomorrow UN decides to empty some seats of some countries and give them to some private corporations, I'd just go like 'well that makes sense, guess they arent even hiding it anymore'.

In a full-automated post-scarcity society like the one you praise, the masses won't get angry because they will have no reason to.
Also, life, especially human life is not about "need", there's nothing wrong with people not working if the robots do all the job.

so your on our side now?

Think of the post scarcity automation communism, but private. Why would these people share? Surely you wouldnt rely just on wishful thinking when it comes to these things?
They have no reason to share. They didnt have it easy either. Everyone I know here at my engineering uni is secretly jealous of all the people studying sociology and politics and philosophy and arts and all the more interesting things that we can only do in our free time, but instead are doing this crap because we want job security and 6 digits starting (I know that's a meme but highest starting salaries of all fields being engineerings isnt).

I am 100% certain that from their perspective mass automation for the masses is not a desirable outcome. And also no human is that selfless.

and aren't the "libertarian" types supposed to be against this kind of "corporatism"

under communism you could have that free time. Just like I could leave my shit job and follow my dreams of being a geneticist.

its called seizing the means of production

This is exactly what's wrong with your Technocratism, if you kill all the non-technocrat (or let them starve), there would be no one and no place in your society to do all those things, your society would be cold as a laboratory, you will lose your humanity, your life would have no purpose.

Wh-what? Do you have any idea how corporations work? If you want to build a company you need to have capital, something to base the company on. This capital comes from the CEO and he is basically ties his success to the company, if it goes bankrupt he does as well vice versa. The porky takes the BIGGEST risk of all but I know you leftists like to romantisize that only the big corp CEOs are porkies and not all CEOs like would be semantically correct.
The small company CEO takes a risk equal to you betting your whole fortune on a single fencing match with your service/product as your sword versus the market. But what I think is going on is the left making a divide between the monetary market and the goods market and somehow the porky in the former is bad and the porky in the latter isn't bad. The definition of porky is faulty and you're a bunch of romantics.

I've been browsing leftypol for half a year and am still not sold on this whole board. I (sadly) feel you're just the people who lack drive and your way of coping is trying to justify a revolution that makes everyone equal. Making everyone equal is cruel, making sure no one unjustly harms another is a whole different deal. I beg you think this a little.

this is correct. Under the market, capital is normally one from appeal to investors. But this will not be the case under Communism. This pretty much eliminates the whole "economic risk" thing.

that's a little loaded

totally with you on that

Because there's enough of literally EVERYTHING they will ever want to have. The only thing missing is the pleb to look down upon (justifiably).

This is why limited liability exists, so that the porkies face lower risk if they fuck up.

Regardless, this is a dumb argument because the absolute worst-case scenario for the porky is that he declares bankruptcy and becomes a prole just like most people. Boo-fucking hoo.

The "forced equality" meme is really fucking dumb. I'm a leftist because I want porky to stop stealing my money. I hate being exploited by fat bastards who get to skimboard in Maui using the wealth which I worked hard to create.

And that would be the monetary market's big players you're referring to, a select group of ebil jooz. Elon Musk isn't evil for being innovative and smart as fuck. No he isn't. But a person making money from handling money, yes I could agree on this one. At the end of the day the porkies all have excellent leadership skills, oratory skills, logical thinking skills etc. and should we really be mad at them for using their skills to their utmost? Arguably a lot of them are corrupt and evil but like everyone always says, power corrupts, and it's not their fault. I honestly believe this.

Voluntarily. You could have a few words with your boss about why he makes so much more money than you do but you just want a mob of angry people to do that for you amirite? You could invest your paycheck into stocks and become the next porky as well.

It's the flow of this world shaped by our common consciousness and upbringing. That is what's truly driving this world. If we want communism to work we need alien intervention. For now, let us find peace in the suffering.

really tickled my pickle

No, having those skills doesn't make you evil, no one is saying that. What you use then for is something else entirely.

MUH ROCKET JESUS

You'll understand this once you have people you want to care for. I'll grant you that one can prevent becoming the next porky by committing one's whole willpower to staying with the working class and strongly identifying with it but once you have a family or close ones you will naturally have a, dare I say biological, need to care for them in the best manner possible. That's what causes the transition to porkyism (in rare cases megalomania or greed does this too).

Nobody is arguing that capitalists are evil. Here we hate the game, not the players.

Literally every capitalist makes their money this way; through reinvesting capital. The only difference between Elon Musk and straight-out investment bankers is that Musk takes on additional responsibilities himself, instead of hiring or outsourcing them.

Absolutely not. The leftist stance is not a moral stance-moralizing in your manner is a bourgeois liberal disease.

Work to make some fat fuck even richer, or starve. Wow, I get to pick which fat fuck to beg for a job, what a lovely choice that is!

My boss is a prole just like me, because she spends her time making the system work more efficiently instead of reinvesting capital.

So is her boss and their boss too; there exist several layers of managers between a lowly warehouse worker like myself and the Porky sitting on his ass on a beach in Miami.

I would be part of that 'mob'- a derogatory term for people who are fed up with being slaves any longer.

It'd be fucking nothing compared to the investment firms full of people who are highly trained and extremely skilled at trading, armed with state-of-the-art software and the right connections to maximize profits.

What a load of spooky idealist garbage

Elon Musk is only innovative because of the capital the jooz provide.

There are no good and bad parts of Capitalism, just Capitalism.

You had me listening with quite the eager ear for a while but:

You can try and change the whole world to match your needs or, you know, make the change happen for yourself. If you want out of the game just move innawoods or whatever you feel does this for you. It's hardly reasonable to demand everyone stops the game because muh feels. Make the change for yourself. Can't do it? Face yourself.

The starving part is a part of nature. Capitalism doesn't mention people starving, it's the conditions of this planet we inhabit.

innawoods etc.

They also have to compensate for all the folk they hire and the buildings they build. You could rent books on the subject and learn and so on. So what if it's fucking nothing if it keeps bread on the table and you an independent person? Insider trading etc is wrong I agree with that one but nepotism etc would not be eliminated by anything I'm afraid, it's such a minor detail that ultimately affects a lot.

Calling it a spook isn't making you look good here. You could've stated why my claim isn't correct but I see you're busy offering bounty to the church of stirner.

Also, the reason why I bring up individual porkies is because lefties have a tendency to start naming these "reptilian overlord jooz who make us suffer" after a pint or two, which gives the impression that the whole "the system is ebil" deal is a thin veil covering a personality disorder aka jealousy and bitterness.

Yeah its true, you always see leftists complain instead of going innawoods and growing crops themselves. They know. They know they have it better thanks to capitalism and imperialism than they'd have it in the jungle.
Honest leftists should go innawoods, start a farm, fish, go themselves, do themselves, live by themselves.

It seems like anger to me, not justice. It's easier to a priori declare a whole bunch of people with nothing but success in common 'evil' than work hard on yourself, so that's what they do.

Not just my needs- the needs of both myself, and every other person in this world who works. Leftists strive for a better, more fair and just world for ourselves and for everyone.

Idealist fantasy, impossible on anything but an anecdotal scale. The fact is that industrial production is the only way that is efficient enough to provide for everyone. I could flee to the woods and live a life of miserable poverty as an eccentric, insignificant outlier, or I could try to change the world for the better.

Where is it written in the laws of the universe that everyone has to give their money to billionaires, or else starve?

Pocket change compared to the profits they make.

I could, but then I would have little time to pursue my interests or better myself in the time I have off from work.

If it's fucking nothing, it's fucking pointless.

You seem to buy into the idealist bullshit that anyone can just pick up a book and become a porky from the comfort of his own home, but the truth of the matter is that no person working on his own can reach the level of wealth and power of the capitalist class. People who do somehow manage this are insignificant outliers.

Regardless, even if I did manage to become a billionaire from trading stocks on my computer in my free time, I would be, again, a strange outlier. This sort of fantasy is not a route to liberation that everyone can take, because in the real world work still needs to get done.

If you're going to ignore many of my points (managers are proles, , you can at least allow me to call you out on your magical thinking. "Ideas and consciousness are REALLY what drives the world" is a meaningless statement meant to make you feel smart.

Maybe you were talking to liberals instead of lefties, then.

Granted, there definitely are some porkies who are evil bastards, so maybe they were just ranting about some especially egregious cases of bourgeois decadence, or something. Regardless, that sort of moralizing is completely ungrounded in leftist philosophy.

you tell em m8!
i've had it with lazy wieners like pic related. I mean if they just applied themselves more.

We have it better because of technology. Imperialists didn't invent the methods of industrial production, workers did (at least, ever since the 19th century when science was institutionalized. Before that it was driven by wealthy porkies fiddling around in their spare time for the sake of prestige, but it was never created by capitalism or imperialism).

Also leftists gladly acknowledge that capitalism is a better system than what came before-feudalism.

Or we could, you know, rid ourselves of unsustainable lifestylist fantasy and not regress back to a pre-feudal era of grinding poverty.

I would love for you to take this idealist bullshit attitude to actual hunter-gatherer groups who live on the outskirts of capitalist society. You would be fucking yelled at if not stabbed.

A righteous, cold anger, born of injustice sustained for too long.

Why do rightists have so much trouble reading posts? Moralizing is bourgeois bullshit. Nobody here thinks all capitalists are 'evil', that's just you trying to make us out to be the same as rightists.

Also I've got to bail on the thread to go to my night class so I can learn math, improve myself and eventually become a computer programmer. After that I'll go to sleep so I'm well-rested for the full day of wasting my life enriching a fat capitalist I've got ahead of me tomorrow.

It's been a good talk, thanks for being civil.

You keep calling me idealistic, and moralizing. But it is this ideal of injustice that motivates all your action.

Listen, I mean try, just try to think about this: what if the world itself is fundamentally unfair?
I never had it good either. I had some good times, some bad, and I too want it to be much better. I dont have a silver spoon up my ass, believe me.
But I also dont think that I am a special snowflake pretty princess. I do not have any magical human rights. Human rights are idealistic. Entitlement is idealistic. Justice is idealistic.

Sometimes, a pond is small and there are too many crocodiles. I didnt make this shit, this is how it is. It is up to me to be angry, to be depressed, to kill myself, to compete, to engage in exploitation, to surrender to God or some higher power…. it is all up to me.

So you do you. Be angry if that's what you want to do. But just think with everything you know so far. What if this justice for a worker idealism as well?????????

This. And they're so indoctrinated by these material conditions that nothing less will suit them. As a result they demand the fruits of others(capitalism) to become theirs(communism, leftist thought in general).

Yes, this is quite the good point. I feel this applies to both the leftists and also to the fascists etc ethnostate guys.

It's not like every leftist is this once-in-a-century grand thinker who envisions the perfect state of affairs for the people. No. It's mostly average joes driven by the need for comfort ( which I understand and feel is a good destination for the mediocre) and the feeling of being not good enough (also understandable but the outlet of this - hate towards the more successful - is wrong). Not all but most, it all comes down to lifestyle choices and personal management. I have witnessed so many cases I have started seeing this pattern.

I know it's a meme but that's not an argument.

Calm discourse is not the first reaction humans take to seemingly hostile outsiders. Why do you expect such a thing?

muh huyman roights and also mags stornor and the houli bibel of margx i demend justice at teh expengx of odders for no abbarend reason :=#D

...

kinda like property rights too huh?

lol
Typical rightist

are you surprised or something?

Yes I feel like no leftist ideology can be self sufficient. It always have to have the 'other', someone else, to be blamed for everything. Nothing is ever their fault in life. Always find an excuse, never find a way..

Right wing ideology is very idealistic, but at least it.. I dont know, drives you forward. Right wing ideologies also tend to scapegoat, but scapegoating is not a primarty thing. Self-overcoming is a primary thing. Making yourself better is a primary thing. They are idealistic, but they drive you forward.

Left winger can always say 'it wasnt me, it's something else that's the problem, and it's pointless to work on myself, I can never win!' while right winger must always say 'the system is unfair, but I will overcome it, I will work on myself, I will become better, I not blame anyone, I will just work on myself instead'.

Which is why you see a lot of right wingers pull of Varg, go innawoods, live a happy life, get their guns, start lifting, they never quite make it but at least they achieve their happiness.
Left wingers on the other hand will permanently take handouts and blame someone else and be miserable till the end and never do anything.

Your "righteous anger" was the real babbytalk in this thread and you obviously missed the point of my spurdotalk. The point was that it's absurd to argue with the premise that you are backed by something righteous and then attaching anger to it.

I was naivë and thought I could challenge leftists on equal footing here on leftypol but alas! I was gravely mistaken. It's an echo chamber like pol. This chap is moving onto greener pastures, 8ch political discussion is kill.

The product of the engineer's labor is vastly more valuable than anything produced by a peon. Why should the peon get an equal share of the riches from the engineer's invention? What incentive would the engineer even have to work if all rewards will be reaped by a horde of welfare niggers with room temperature Autism Levels in the end?

No just anyone can "learn" that though. We are not all created equal. Your whole world view presupposes 'equality', which is an outright lie.

wow that was condescending

Why not? Suffering is suffering, we all live on this planet once so why not mitigate unnecessary suffering?

>This chap is moving onto greener pastures
not like we lost something great. We stated our position rather well, it seems as if you where bound to leave unless we absolutely agreed with you, THAT would be an echo chamber.

edgy post fam

oh, great, you guys

kek
what do you mean by "learn"? This book is simply an objective analysis of what drives people to innovate. Typical rightist denying science

But what if justice is a spook? What if there is no magic fairy that goes around righting wrongs, and what if the bourgies just automate all the labor and also manage to get rid of the common worker?

There is no fundamental reason to think that justice or equality isnt a spook. Say what you want about lolbertarians, but I think that they are much less spooked than commies with their magic justice and magic worker rights.

marketsuccs dont represent me

What the fuck are you talking about?

If you think you got an edge on using existential absurd-ism as an argument, your mistaken

Yes no one disagrees with you that literally any major cause for any justice if meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe, but does this lack of meaning even matter? as I mentioned in suffering is suffering, if this is the only go in life you get why not mitigate it for yourself and all those you love?

Live for pleasure not for pain

read:Camus

your understanding of leftism is meme-tier

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara

"Within four years Burkina Faso reached food sufficiency due in large part to feudal land redistribution and series of irrigation and fertilization programs instituted by the government. During this time production of cotton and wheat increased dramatically. While the average wheat production for the Sahel region was 1,700 kilograms per hectare (1,500 lb/acre) in 1986, Burkina Faso was producing 3,900 kilograms per hectare (3,500 lb/acre) of wheat the same year. This success meant Sankara had not only shifted his country into food self-sufficiency but had in turn created a food surplus"

Leftism literally hinges on self-sufficiency. That's the whole point of anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism, etc. Revolution frees you from the factors restricting your autonomy.

marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/red-book/ch27.htm

"we hope that all our fellow fighters will courageously shoulder their responsibilities and overcome all difficulties, fearing no setbacks or gibes, nor hesitating to criticize us Communists and give us their suggestions"

"If we have shortcomings, we are not afraid to have them pointed out and criticized, because we serve the people. Anyone, no matter who, may point out our shortcomings. If he is right, we will correct them. If what he proposes will benefit the people, we will act upon it."

read a fucking book and stop using your anecdotes and feels to make retarded blanket statements about ideologies you know nothing about

Exactly. I think we are on the same page now. This implies doing your best to become a porky. A corporate fascist. Rise above, claim your place in the world or perish, do the best you can. Eat, eat others, starve, or get eaten.
Aka right wing libertarianism. No spooks. No oppression. No exploitation. If you have it bad, you are doing something wrong.

sorry just had to get that out of the way

sorry m8, capitalism isn't inherently meritocratic. The odds are what I make will just be bought up by some larger tech firm. I'll prolly be compensated, but why be a slave? If you think porky will share room on the throne with you, your sorely mistaken

also if we have the ability to give all a better world, why not? I would hate to see others suffer so while I lived in pleasure! All men are my brothers! I'm only as strong as my brothers. Corporate fascist really isn't my jive man

a little bit sociopathic, but I wont dwell.

How can you bring this absolute total utopia for all, if you do not have strength/might to do it? How can we all have everything, if someone stronger than us enslave us? How can you create a better world, for everyone no less, if you are weak?
No. Strength/might is everything. Strength is to politics, what numbers are to mathematics, what atoms are to chemistry.

What you want to do, is irrelevant. What you actually can do, is all that matters.
Again and again, we live in a small pond with too many crocodiles, leftism does not explain how can we all have this paradise on earth of 'each according to his need' when there's 7 billion people and finite amount of resources.

You must do your best and that's it, I just dont think that this best is me slaving for others, I'd rather enslave others if there's no other way out, or kill myself if there's no other way out.

Systems never change because of one person. It has always been collective struggle that has lead humanity on.

this is where innovation comes in. Also as standards of living improve globally, the birth rate will fall

that just sounds really depressing. Are you OK in actual life and all? I don't want to get all psychoanalysis on you, but this just seems like a call for help.

This sounds like the most extreme wishful thinking out there. I mean can you put your finger on this innovation? Again, I am still talking in good faith. I dont want to provoke anger. It's just that, this innovation, we dont know if it exists, when it exists, where it exists. Starvation, on the other hand, is an absolute. I can point it out, right now, where it is, and even calculate it for every individual…..
Starvation is a certain, a constant, an absolute.
no, but there's no help either, there's no way for me to complain my problems away, to wishful think my problems away, all there is is struggle, there is nothing but struggle, all I can do is struggle till I cant struggle any more

a good bit of it is. However I don't disagree that in the future we will see starvation (which will act as a natural population reducer) . I'm hoping it will be in this chaos caused by capitalism that a new world will rise. All in all I highly doubt that the world population will rise much higher then 9 or 10 billion.

Have you tried seeing help, like a therapist? Or if its social woes that throw you, have you tried evaluating your character (don't want to pass judgments here). Either way I'm sending love and hoping things get reasonably better, from one exploited prole to another.

Good lord, pick up a fucking leftist book and stop drinking the capitalist kool-aid.

Capitalism isn't a meritocracy, we only hate wealth that was accumulated through exploitation, innovation occurred before capitalism and will continue after it, and socialism doesn't inherently mean a planned economy and definitely doesn't mean equal pay.

We all know that, but no one can put a finger on it, no one can take it to the court, sue it, right the wrong. This lack of rigid rules allows for all kinds of bullshittery to go on unfiltered. Everyone can take it, everyone can re-interpret it for good, for bad, for fight actual injustice, or justify his shortcomings and actually do injustice.

Well I have found my consolation in my worldview. If I feel bad, it's my own fault, and I must fix it. That's what I am off to do next. I will fix it by achieving my engineering degree. I will find a job. I will accumulate wealth. I will use it to make a difference for myself. I will work hard and I am hoping for the best. There is literally nothing else to it.

all the best m8, I don't want to rain on your parade, but someone else might

Exactly. You have to kill it with revolution and the guillotine.

You're not Atlas, stop blaming yourself for fucking everything.

Most of people think like that, but they are wrong, you will just be exploited and work for the capitalists, this is fake hope, you won't make any difference, you will just be a gear of the Capitalist machine, you will waste your life.

Intellectual property can be private or personal property depending on how its used.
All of its abuses are to do with private property and the cases were its acceptable are were it acts as personal property.

It's not like he made it by himself. Others within the company worked with him to make it possible directly, whether directly or through things like cleaning the building, scheduling his appointments, sourcing materials etc. In a broader sense many workers in society did, by building his house, creating his food, educating him and inventing the engines his is based upon.

Wow OP. You do realize that real basic research and science is pretty ill paid right?
Engineers who mostly just create above the blocks that someone else did are the ones who get most money, but that defeats your hypotesis that nobody does shit for free (or in this case, for pennies).
Not to mention, that science is the most communist labor even with porkies attempts to close it. People share the knowledge and they build above that knowledge. Tales about science heroes are just ideology because they all build on giant's shoulders (Newton's quote)
You mention you don't even have a fucking degree (eng like a pleb) and still, you make all these assumptions. Faggots like you are more whiney than your leftist caricature.
You think that you're so knowledgable, and that you work so hard, but you whine and whine about your hard earned muh privileges, while other people work twice as hard for the benefit of everyone. You're like a fucking baby.