Hi Holla Forums

Which are specifically 0. Communism is a world-wide system.

Someone post that picture detailing capitalism's inefficiency.

look its the reddit frog

Co-Ops underperform versus traditional businesses. The first colonies to arrive in North America would have been described as communes by Marx had he been aware of them and failed spectacularly.

I'm not asserting that the USSR is an example of the perfect execution of communism. However, I might argue that such examples are a perversion of the guidelines set out by Marx and are inevitable.

Much obliged, comrade.

Had those events been centrally planned the death count would of been higher. :^)

look its the reddit frog

No it wouldn't.

wtf why do i love the ruling class now

Assertions aren't arguments, even if you say them over and over again.
:^)

You're better at this than I am.

Co-ops are a capitalist business model.

These were colonies expected to produce a profit, and do not reflect what communism is supposed to be like. Also, communism requires industrial society and high automation. Of course they would fail.

They are not at all an attempt at communism. They were an attempt at socialism and it resulted in state capitalism, which Lenin saw as a small step forward. The problem is that they never kept going.

Marx didn't say how communism should be done. Only that it would happen because capitalism cannot sustain itself. The alternative right now seems human extinction, so you can decide if you'd rather be dead than red.

Nice thumbnail, faggot.

Capitalism is centrally planned. That's what you don't get. A few corporations control all production and therefore governments of the world. Did you think just because you can pay for things shit isn't planned? You're a special kind of sucker, then.

i know you probably don't want to hear this but the USSR isn't communism, the best case you can make for it is it's a form of socialism. Communism means, along with some other things, a stateless society. Thats why people say it wasn't real communism.

relevant

Well, no, because Marx specified Socialism needed an industrial base to develop.
Most agricultural societies were communal, the US isn't an exception.

Like not having an industrial base at all?
Also Marx had very little to say about Socialism, his "guidelines" were very vague, the majority of his work is dedicated to analising the current system.

Central planning has never outperformed the free market.

I'm stating facts. Why would you argue over facts?

Coops perform better than traditional businesses
thenation.com/article/worker-cooperatives-are-more-productive-than-normal-companies/
Communism existed in America for thousands of years, with its most developed exemplar being the Iroquois Confederacy. In fact, Marx based his vision of communism off his studies of them - he intended it as being against so-called "utopian socialists" because their ideas ran counter to human nature. The human nature argument is painfully useless against Marxism.
libcom.org/library/karl-marx-iroquois-franklin-rosemont
USSR never even pretended to be communist. It only called itself socialist starting with Stalin.
As Lenin himself said,
As we all know, it didn't. The state does not wither away in the absence of prior class antagonisms, but instead grows to fill the void and creates new ones through power inequalities.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the USSR is the real communism, in practice, and that Marx's form of communism was an unachievable fever dream? The USSR is the natural result of implementing communism on a large scale. If all attempts at communism bring about a similar result, then isn't it madness to assume that Marx's vision is fundamentally flawed? You are denying reality in favor of a book.

I'm no USSR lover, but they went from an agrarian backwater easily beat by industrial Germany while it fought on 2 fronts to being the world's second largest industrial power, beating the US into space in every way that matters (no one even goes to the moon, and the USSR beat the US in every other category). They ended Tsarist Russia's perpetual famines, and raised standards of living massively. It's factually wrong to deny that it at least has its merits.
No, you really aren't. You're making baseless assertions without sources. "It is known" is not a source. Investigate these things, and you might find that the truth is more complicated.

Marx based his ideas of what future communism would look like based on looking at the history of existing communist societies such as the Iroquois and the Cossacks. Communism has been the mode of organization for most of humanity's existence, as it's what forms in power vacuums. There is no central planning, nothing of the sort. It's just common sense, face-to-face democracy. Get that through your thick head.

Kek, Marxists BTFO

except thats not true, the USSR was created was the idea in mind to create sort of a mix of socialism and capitalism with a state to lead with the idea that eventually it would become real communism.

If they were so great, than why were they destroyed? How can you advocate a system modeled after a shitty collective of tribes thousands of years behind the civilized world? If anything it's evidence that it leads to stagnation.

So Stalinism and Maoism failed?
Free markets are a meme that have never applied to real world politics.

...

Sage

Would you want to live in those places?

The article is titled "Worker Cooperatives Are More Productive Than Normal Companies". Dude, shut the fuck up and get out.

They didn't have gunpowder. Furthermore, the wheel was only used in the Old World because there were draft animals powerful enough to make it truly useful for industry. There's a variety of other things which could be stated here, but those are what come to mind first.

Bolshevik lies. Every other source says that he didn't do anything of the sort. If Spain hadn't gone on as long as it did, they'd have said the same things. Who do I trust, an anarchist whose reported independent experiences weirdly correspond to those of every other anarchist interaction with Leninists (Kronstadt, Shinmin, Catalonia) or the propaganda apparatus of the same party which shamelessly carried out the Show Trials of the 1930s?

I think it's fair to say that Maoism completely failed, looking at the records of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Stalinism's a bit more complicated because most of its deaths resulted from a rapid industrialization without foreign support in a single decade, and there's never been an industrialization of any country without huge numbers of deaths anywhere. If anything, it might even be more humane than capitalist industrialization from a neutral standpoint. That being said, there was no reason to remove Soviet democracy and replace it with rule of the party. From that standpoint, they failed hard.

Hell yeah.

That is my point, you are not viewing these ideologies in the context of their respective nations. Russia and China had long histories of famine and tyranny, how were the personality cult leaders any different than their historical predecessors?

That's nice.

Well, if they got off their lazy asses and had a free market, maybe they would have acquired those things.

Mao is love, Mao is life.

What, do you want for me to read it to you and show you the pictures? Seeing the level of your arguments, I might have to do that.
Draft animals don't pop up out of nowhere, you moron. They didn't have horses in North America or anything like that. Do you have no sense of historical and material context? "Muh free market" doesn't magically print cities. It's magical thinking. Almost everything of scientific and technological significance in the USA was done through the government. All the technologies in your computer, your iphone, the plastics you use, the medicines you take, etc, they all have government funding and work in them. The free market does jack shit in terms of real innovation, it's too risky for firms with the capital and too expensive for those without. You have no idea how the world works, do you?

Well, they're there now and it wasn't communists that brought them there.

Yes, all those things were created by communists, right? There was no private investment involved, yes? Do you have any how the world works?

We do not. Communism is a real movement (of which we try to be part) leading to a predictable outcome, not an utopy to be "advocated" for.

Communism solves the contradictions of capitalism, and thus arises from it. Wether it is "worse" or not (by what standards?) is irrelevant.

Communism has not been "created". It has been discovered.

Obviously. I suggest you read actual communist literature, starting with Marx.

...

Sounds like a cult.

So you admit that you simply think less of anyone with different opinions? :^(

Yeah I am part of Newton's cult of gravity and C. Columbus's cult of America as well.

Well, after this discussion I do think less of communists. Most people are okay, though.

K. Back to Holla Forums you go.

You didn't come here to learn anything or change your opinion about a single thing. No one is surprised. You are not unique. We have this thread every few hours. Piss off.

I came here to learn why communists believed central planning could possibly outperform the free market. I found out that this belief was due to appeals to emotion, mainly via shitty memes.

This is a straw man made up by Austrian economists, aka retards.

Alright everybody, move along. It's just been bait this whole time; nothing to see here.

You're a fucking idiot. Take that back to wherever you came from.

where?

I agree that the thread was shit but I scrolled up and down and couldn't find one.

Read Capital.

So you admit that central planning can never outperform the free market?

How pathetic are you for defending the current status quo. Open up a history book and find out about the conditions of 1917 Russia. Then read about the cold war and economic warfare. Then read about state capitalism and then how to transition from state capitalism to communism. Then ask yourself if wasting Eath's resources is worth maintaining a growth in GDP. If you afterwards still think the same about everything presented in this thread, then please kill yourself.

Spectacular observation skills.

The free market is already destroying itself, and would likely already be dead if it weren't for keynesian planning, it's not an alternative.

Of course not. The free market is a nonsensical "praxeological" idealism, and something has to exist before it can be outperformed.

I don't have a boss, though. I am the boss.

Good, you don't even need to be here, you're just going to be shot.

It isn't supposed to outperform the free market or even what we have right now, you ingrate. It is supposed to create what is necessary while keeping the rest intact. It would prevent the Chinese from creating cheap knock offs who no one cares about, it prevents the overuse of plastics and toxins which kill humans and animals alike. It prevents the overuse of precious resources. It could actually stop the overuse of oil and coal, and create a transition to renewable energy. All because the shitty competition would be removed.

But user, if you remove the competition, the discipline of the market will decline and you will become the shitty competition.

This has to be a troll. I always give the benefit of the doubt because it might be a lost normie with potential to be converted, but this guy's not even trying to hide it anymore. Thank goodness this thread is bumplocked.

Wow, you sound like a really tough guy.

I am 100% serious.

Not everyone is as lazy and ambitionless as you are.

then why are most commies in my country jobless faggots

Nice that was actually just the insight I needed. That explains everything. You are the greatest cocksucker of them all. You suck the cock of capitalism to keep yourself secure. You are afraid that people wouldn't like your shit personality under communism. You are afraid that everyone would leave you. That you wouldn't have your nice car and a nice house, which you share with your wife/gf, who only likes you for the money you possess. You are afraid of losing your little dream world. Because you have everything to lose, and nothing to gain from a revolution. You don't value the lives of others. Not to mention those who are suffering under capitalism. Instead, you rather keep going on this trainwreck which will inevitably crash, only because you got a first class seat. That is why you go to an obscure imageboarrd, even though you are the boss. You are trying to mock communists to make yourself feel better. To get rid of your insecurities.
He proclaims.
He continues.
He cries out. Without looking further than the next quarter, when the numbers are in.
Yet, instead of going on with his "perfect" life, his insecurities keep returning. He is never safe enough. Go to a shrink and get your head checked. Instead of shitposting about crap we already debunked plenty of times.

But I started a business to employ people and provide services to my community. Why would you think that?

Because working minimum wage is demoralising. They would probably rather kill themselves. So they turn to communism which actually gives them a prospect of a better life. Isn't that obvious? Not everyone is capable of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Not everyone can pay for education. Not everyone has the proper connections. For them, communism would be a better business strategy :^)

You still advocate for a system which thrives on ruining people's lives. Whatever your wages do for your first world community is nothing compared to the shit capitalism has done to exploit the third world. Your ignorance isn't an excuse to maintain capitalism.

The minimum wage in my country is absurdly high, though.

Why pick an idealogy that has historically fucked over actual workers instead of an idealogy that has historically helped them like capitalism or fascism?

Wrong.

brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

I grew up poor and got out of it. It's your fault. Thank you for sharing some details about your life, though. I hope you sort yourself out before it is too late.

That was largely a result of those that manipulate and align themselves with people like you which pass policies to enable mutualism between government and capitalism.

Under capitalism, money decides what you can do, and what you can't do. Humans become a form of commodity. We are a product to be bought and sold. Our skills, our looks, or knowledge. All of it is for sale. If we aren't good enough, or competition is better, no one will buy us. Which means you aren't worth anything. Our entire self-worth is dependent on our own success. This in itself, creates enough mental pressure to break certain people. This is what I mean with that not everyone can pull themselves up, there is an entire psychological aspect which goes ignored. Others seek to abolish this notion of worth by becoming part of a gang. Gangs don't care about your economic standing, you aren't a commodity to be bought, you are a member of a family. Even if the conditions in gangs are worse than living minimum wage. It removes the aspect of capitalism from our daily life, and for some this is preferable. For these people the notion of money controlling everything is absurd. And it is a growing trend, even if they don't realise it themselves. Just look at Holla Forums. They follow the old ideas that Hitler manufactured. They believe that society should an organic being. Where people help each other. Of course only if you're white… This idea spring from the same alienation as gangs. They want to become part of a community which isn't based on wealth, but on a bond between people, something natural, not something abstract such as money. The happiness of humans under capitalism depends, not on how much money you have, but on how strong your bonds with other people are. Money doesn't make you happy, it can only distract you from your unhappiness. It can alleviate the pressure of hunger and thirst, the pressure of living on the streets, the anxiety by taking drugs, the loneliness by eating or distracting oneself with media. It never fixes the core problem, only hides it. Communism would try to remove all these pressures and anxieties. You are part of democratic decision making and become directly involved with your community removing the alienation. With the proper tools and help, everyone can build a decent house for themselves. With our current tech, we can produce plenty of food. Removing the pressure. We can plan to make sure that we don't destroy nature and protect the future. Removing anxiety. One can argue for communism with more than just economics. Also, it doesn't matter if people failed to produce communism before. I don't see that as an argument to not try again in a different way.

I'd say a new way of government is the best way forward tbh.

...

All you have to do is not behave like an absolute retard, as evidenced by the article linked earlier. Capitalism has lifted the living standards so high even the most worthless absolute scum of society can have a better quality of life than most kings did a few centuries ago. If you are too shitty to meet the standards that capitilism demands you will most likely be put to a wall if communism is implemented.

Fuck you, I know I meet those standards. I know how to behave, and I have made people like you a shit ton of money. I know this.

Still you make people juggle night and afternoon shifts; refuse to give raises with better productivity; don't listen to the valuable input your workers give you and then, when you see the result of your mismanagement and begrudgingly apply counter measures, never admitting you were wrong or crediting anyone; thinking of nothing but your profit and then acting as if we should be grateful to you, even if you don't pay us, like if we needed only your breadcrumbs to manage, and every other abuse on your part was just an inevitable part of life. There is "making it" and "not making it", but you're ignoring such a large gray area in between it's hard to believe you even think of us as people.

But if that's the only thing you have to answer to that user, then I hope you enjoy your profit, since it's plain to see you sold your soul for it long ago. I've worked for owners of smaller businesses (the ones who are not driven out of business, barely get a chance, and bankers bleed dry with loans) who were capable of making a profit while still maintaining a faithful, happy workforce.

Porky isn't human.