How to debunk muh 60 gorillion?

do you all disagree with the holocaust being real?

We have proof the the millions the Nazis killed.

Show me the 60 Trillion Stalin killed?

If you can't. It didn't happen.

1000's of bodys killed by Nazis (left)

Maybe 30 bodys killed by Soviets (right)

And one dead horse lol

So evil.

No proof Stalin even liked 1 million people.

could you post the proof? obviously i believe the holocaust happened, but i'm not convinced about the numbers. such as 6 million jews or whatever they say it is now.

muh comunillion comunillions

that pic on the right is fake

i'm sure if those were posted on Holla Forums they would say the left one is fake too

You're like Holocaust deniers.

He's right though.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Holodomor_hoax_photos

It's from the 1921 famine and was propagandized by Ukrainians and Nazis.

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I had a couple of good montages about it but I can't find them right now. I'll post them if I locate them.

Anyway, if you google around for historians' estimations of excess deaths under Stalin, you'll see they often revise their numbers "as more data becomes avalable". And every time, without fail, even the Porky-approved historians like Conquest revise the numbers downwards.

Holodomor? It's just Ukranian and kulak propaganda, tovarisch.

It never happened.

But I wish it did.

Anybody can post that Dr. Seuss cartoon with Hitler and Goebbels writing about the million deaths of communism in a typewriter?

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Found the fascist snake in the grass

These two?
Also have a free Hoxha in memory of /marx/. I miss that shithole, Ismail autism was fun.

Trotsky crushed Kronstadt.

Good.

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Here for gulag estimations
(4 non antagonisitic and one antagonistic version.)

Just ask them how the Soviet Union managed to maintain a positive growth rate for every year of its existence, with the exception of WW2, if Stalin killed half the Soviet population.

youtube.com/watch?v=13wcHsNc9v8

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Here, another Tankie for you.

Do you have a version of these using normal adult language?

Im quite open minded about this subject and always want to learn more. But its off putting when it starts going on about burgers and faggots in the first paragraph. Im more interested in statistics etc.

WEW

At least most anti-communists operate under the impression that the Russians are some sort of endless mass that lose 100 million people without flinching.

But not deliberately.
Just due to the inefficiencies of central planning an entire massive country.

Same thing happened in China.

I fucking hate it when I get up in the middle of the night to get a glass of water and end up tripping on one of the fourteen eighty-eight trillion gorillion bodies communism scattered all over the world.

The Soviet Union maintained a positive population growth rate for its entire existence, with the single exception being World War 2.

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I guess there wasnt a lot to do for entertainment except reproduce.

Like in Africa today.

A famine definelty happened.But I wish Jordan B Peterson would stop memeing around and actually explain how Marxism is to blame for a fucking famine.

Has anybody actually read The Gulag Archipelago.What points does he make against Marx ?

I can't tell if you're joking or if you actually believe this

OK then smart arse what did they do for entertainment in Africa?

sportball, same as everywhere else

To me the biggest issue wasnt the awful central planning but the concept of seizing land of families who had been successful for generations and giving it to someone who had no farming experience and their only qualification was to be in good graces with the communist party. If you repeat that a few thousand times productivity goes through the floor.

If they were so productive why was Russia a poor country in 1917? The Kulaks were generally small untitled landlords and capitalists, the point of the revolution was to do away with capitalism not create a gentler capitalism for the little guy with free trade like the kulaks wanted.

You might want to consider the fact that capitalists and their economists lie about the USSR so that the people of the world wont try to emulate its model and/or intensify the struggle against capitalism.

By the 60s the USSR had a wage level on par with West Germany and the world's second largest economy and military. The USSR reaped enormous fruits of development under Lenin and Stalin and it was large enough that retards like Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Gorbachev could institute completely retarded liberal and capitalist policies and the reserves, industrial base, and educated/skilled workforce was large enough that it could stay number two super-power decade for decade until 1989-1990

That's 1921/22 famine. It exceeded Holodomor in both numbers and scale. And if anyone is guilty, it's the "civilized" world (League of Nations), who considered it a godsend and tried to exacerbate it to destroy USSR.

Nansen even got accused of being Communist, when he tried to organize people to send food to Russia.

Define "famine".

None. It's a sob story about crimes of Communism: Evil Stalinists made a big fire and ordered people to jump into it or be shot. So people jumped into the fire and stayed there until they burned alive.

Bullshit.

It's the kulaks who had no farming experience. They used hired workers to farm, or they loaned grain/money/tools/horses to the poor. That's how they earned money and that's why they were called "kulaks".

Land was given to the very people who actually worked on it.

Stop lying. Land and farming equipment went to the kolkhoz. That is to the whole village. It was owned and managed collectively, not granted to someone personally.

What's with the out of place hate on americans and 1337 speak ?

u.s.a is the capital of holocaust denial and neonazism

It is a more or less old macro aimed at Holla Forumsacks. The author tried to adequate the language the presumed public, angsty loner teenagers spouting bullshit they read at some shitty jpeg. Of course Holla Forums demographics are quite different but that's the assumed, and often self perceived, of the place.

Most serious Historian make significantly lower estimates than six million. The number has certainly been exaggerated for political purposes. In any event the Nazis killed million of Jews for no reason so it doesn't really make a difference.

I've read the Gulag Archipelago the points made to tie Marxism to the Soviet crimes are meaningless. Just Dostoevsky tier shit about muh evil materialism and spiritual emptiness.

Almost nobody denies that the Soviet Union was able to undergo rapid industrialization under central planning. That doesn't justify the ideology.

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I meant they knew how to run a farm. Like crop rotation and irrigation etc. Everyone can push a plough obviously. lol

It shouldn't be aimed specifically aimed at America, just because holocaust denial is illegal in europe doesn't mean there aren't holocaust deniers and neo nazis in europe. I'd edit it out but i'm pretty lazy

I've never said that. I object to communism on ideological grounds more than practical, although I would point out that industrialization and famines aren't mutually exclusive. The USSR had vast natural resources and a large population, it's not surprising that the government initiating 5 year plans aimed primarily and industrializing and producing capital goods for heavy industry resulted in just that. It's also not surprising that producing goods at the governments direction resulted in fewer consumer goods.

Lefties cannot into reason.

It's not aimed at a country, but rather an online community who gets their information from shitty infographics. The language must adjust itself to the receptor so that the message is understood or there is no communication. Make a new one if you must.

They did that by taking the wealth from the farmers, who remained serfs under that arrangement, and used that to build up other industries. Also less people meant fewer mouths to feed so more could be invested in other industries.

The history of the Soviet Union is a monument to State Capitalism.

China is its own animal because it's so big and densely populated that any time before industrialization anything went wrong, however slight, 'millions died.''

People deny it literally all the time. The way it's put in the popular consciousness, it's just starvation, gulags, and breadlines from the monstrous killing of the Tsar and his family until democracy and freedom finally wins, thanks to Reagan (profits be upon him).

read a book retard

That would be a big no. The crux of anti-Soviet arguments is that there was no "real" industrialization and Central Planning didn't do anything market couldn't.

You can't "justify" ideology. Ideology is the thing that gives values, methods to justify things or not.

I'm assuming you rely on Bourgeois (Liberal) ideology as the "default" ideology from which you try to evaluate other ideologies. The problem here is that Bourgeois ideology cannot and will not evaluate any other ideology as superior.

Now you are just inventing things. The answer is - no. There was no "secret art" of kulaks that made them efficient. Because they weren't. Moreover, they were notoriously hidebound about farming and were resisting innovations: they didn't need any. They were Capitalists, not entrepreneurs.

What wealth would that be? Give me numbers. All I've seen points to the subsistence-level productivity of Russian farmers before kolkhozs.

It was the "Left" Opposition who wanted to take wealth from the farmers, you schizophrenic moron. One of the main arguments against "State Capitalists" was that they relied on support of peasants, rather than urban workers alone. You can't simultaneously accuse people of pro-peasant populism and anti-peasant oppression.

What's the difference? Sure, Russian Empire was spread out thinner, but it was the same Malthusian trap. Food/population ratio was probably even lower. It's not like massive famines weren't happening every few years already and the 1917 Revolution itself wasn't fuelled by food shortages.

Don't, you sound like a holocaust denier when you do, instead argue how capitalism is responsible for far more death.

This is what apologist Cucks actually believe. 100 gorillionz was not enough.

Hello CIA!

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Wow you must win lots of arguments. Stalin only killed something like 2-3 million people via gulag. There is literally no evidence that suggests he killed any more than that number.

It's really not hard at all to distance yourself from stalin/mao and explain that their failures aren't due to some fault endemic to left wing ideology and are rather due to multiple outside factors (poor state planning, foreign resistance, socialism in one country doesn't work, etc.) if you're arguing/debating with someone willing to listen.

Specifically to your point, many people don't accept these numbers as made up estimates from the Cold War, which they likely are, and instead accept them just as facts. It doesn't matter what YOU think is the case, because, unlike an ideological dispute (like whether or not these deaths are a result of the flaws inherent communist/left wing thinking, as discussed above), most people draw the line at human life. If you start to argue with someone that thinks you support or associate with alleged mass murderers, even if you don't, the last thing you want to do is to deny those apparent murders ever happened, because at that point you literally do sound like a fucking nazi. Most people, especially Americans, closely associate Stalin and Hitler because of their apparent authoritarian governments, and don't go beyond what they were taught in their high school world history class, so, to reiterate the point above, you're supporting someone who, in their minds, is essentially the same as fucking Hitler, and you are denying their involvement in any sort of organized killing, which makes you sound like a holocaust denier, whether or not you agree with that. Even if you come prepared with cold hard "proof" other than "well the CIA just made it all up you retarded liberal" that actually proves that deaths due to communism are significantly less than the current estimates, you'll still probably look like a cultist/extremist in their eyes. Basically, when all someone knows about communism is the premise that it killed 60 gorillion and is super duper ebul like 1984 and you deny the very premise on which all their knowledge of communism is founded upon with, at best, shaky evidence, their first reaction will simply be to reject your claim and stick with their premise. You're implying that their knowledge of a subject is completely fucking wrong and the vast majority of people with any sort of ideological conviction, even when presented evidence that refutes their knowledge/views, aren't going to start at square zero and re-evaluate their views, they're going to think "what a cuck/weirdo/autist" and just stop listening. The better way to debate with someone who thinks you're a Stalin worshiping caricature is to introduce ideas which are likely completely new to them. Talk to them about state capitalism vs socialism, give them examples at successful attempts towards socialism (though personally, I don't think their have been any), tell them how capitalism effects their lives, explain capitalism's faults (warning: you'll actually have to read Marx for this), etc. Introduce them to new information for them to take into consideration rather than flat out rejecting what little information they already have.

People like this are the reason we are going to have very violent revolutions - the only argument they recognize is violence.

Yes. It's very hard. You are suggesting the very same things, you rely on the very same methods, you will

There were no failures.

If you have $10k and manage to turn them into $100k, nobody would say "you failed, because the guy who had one million ended up with $200k". It's the guy who lost $800k is a failure, not the one who earned $90k.

Stop with your lame excuses. You don't know anything about Communism, and is forced to resort to cheap rhetoric, rather than actual arguments. That's all there is to it.

Jason pls

I'm shaking in my boots, please don't hurt me at the next WWII Stalingard LARPing event.
No? What the fuck? How are you this delusional to think that to secure socialism I have to purge people based on my paranoid intuition or because they personally offended me in some way. How are you this delusional to think that to secure socialism I have to build up a massive cult of personality which turns into a massive competition of "Who can suck Papa Stalin's dick the hardest", hell even fucking POL POT understood that.
Do you unironically think the four pests campaign was a success? The Great Leap Forward? Gulags? Purges of alleged "revisionists" and "reactionaries"? None of those were mistakes on Stalin/Mao's part?
Why do you have such a problem with these supposed lies that communism has killed 100 gorillion people but, at the same time, are advocating for extreme violence? You're not going to convince anyone except for deranged sociopaths and FBI agents (same thing) to join your gay ass ML/MLM/MTW movement (death cult) if all you do is advocate violence from the very beginning.
You're telling me that I don't know shit about communism because I'm not obsessed with murdering bourgeoisie and liberal babies, but the only comparison you're able to make regarding success "socialist" (state capitalist) states is reduced to using MONEY with your retarded "10k/100k vs 1000k/200k" (which isn't even close to true, btw) analogy. Building a bureaucratic state capitalist welfare state, like in the case of PRC and the USSR, is social democracy with extreme violence sprinkled on top. You are a SocDem with an inhuman face

Did it eradicate the pests? It even had the added benefit of taking a few million Chinese with it, something which China has never had a shortage of.

Did it fail to increase China's industrial capacity?

Can you name a single kulak that didn't deserve it?

Nikolas Koblen opposed the Red Army during the Russian civil war and wasn't purged. He then proceeds to sabotage the soviet union, even going to far as to collaborate with the nazis.

So yeah, purge all revisionists and reactionaries.

Lmao. I think the chinese peasantry were a secret 5th pest

Nope.

Dumb posters are dumb.

If you don't have public that understands politics, it will make mistakes. And once enough mistakes are made, it's no longer "taxes increase by 3%", but civil war. Nobody is going to send LEFT-WING DEATH SQUADS after you. You'll be killing other people for bullshit reasons and will get killed by them eventually, since killing will continue until someone else wins: bullshit reasons can't win wars. Not for long. China had over 40 years of intermittent civil war, until Communists rolled in and created lasting peace through superior ideology.

You can't even differentiate between propaganda and reality. How do you expect to create anything functioning? You'll be blindly following orders of mass-media your whole life. If you are lucky, you'll end up autistically screeching at people your whole life. The alternative is to join some morons who will attempt to nobly sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good.

Yes.

I take it, you are one of those "experts" who think "truly" successful enterprises must bring in profit from the very first day and without any investments, otherwise it's a failure.

I'll note that I'm obviously referring to the real events, not you mythological history with Chinese killing every single sparrow in China (somehow not leaving a trace of this for ecologists), and other fantasies.

THERE WAS NO MISTAKES

How many times do I need to repeat this?

I don't care if Communists killed 100 gorillion or even 100 million gorillion. But that doesn't mean that I am somehow lost all reason, went to live in imaginary world of mass-media, and became unable to separate lies from truth.

Oh, no! The dreaded use of Foul Language! How can I respond to this? It is clear that you've won through your unrivaled reasoning and argumentation. But wait. We are not pre-school anymore, are we? Then - no. That didn't actually work.

In other news: I don't give a fuck about your hypocritical whiny-ass pacifism. People have been killing people since forever. Only lunatics believe they can hug it out.

Because you don't know. Period.

Oh noes. I dared to think that Basis affects Superstructure and people are comfortable operating concepts they are familiar with! How un-Marxist!

Can you stop being faggot for a second?

You are welcome to prove your statement.

And here you can't even see the difference between economy of PRC and USSR.

Yes. Original SocDem. Of the pre-Revisionist Second International variety that went on and founded Third International and renamed themselves Communist.

And - yes. Inhuman face. In the modern world only Capitalists are allowed to be real humans. You need a lot of money for this, and I don't have enough. I am not going to be shamed by this fact and will not pretend to be human.

Welcome to the 21st century, human. It will be a riot.

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