Gulf of tonkin part 2???

remember me, how many german troops were standing by the side of the red army when they went into Leningrad? i can't remember… was it like, 0? shit, sounds like some real german imperialism going on there.

Supporting either faction is already a complete failure in proper class politics. It doesn't further the proletariat's struggle against capital and is one of the spectacle's sham battles of alienated power, as Debord would say.

The US and Syria have unity within their seperation: that unity is capitalism. Supporting one over the other makes little sense. Trump and Assad are both war criminals and lackeys of capital. Support the international proletariat (but especially those in Syria) in their desperate struggle to stay alive and safe during this tumultuous time. Communists should never defend US or Syrian action. This entire "discussion" is a farce and they're just pretending to have a form of agency they do not. Whether a bunch of random people support Syria or not is totally irrelevant. Its fate will be governed by the (imagined) interests of the ruling class, not by them. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Rojava, where workers are submitted to a struggle completely unrelated to their class interests. At least Rojava, in spite of being utopianism and allied with the US, has a progressivist character in the sea of reaction that is the middle east which could be a positive influence.

*citation needed*

tell me once more there's a difference between the anarkiddy antisemitism and their slander against the soviet union and that of the common Holla Forumsack.

same reactionary scum.

Why are American OSS agents in Vietnam supporting Ho-Chi-Minh? Must be another imperial lapdog.

And you wonder why you get the bullet every time?

i can tell by the progressive american troops spreading freedom and democracy once again

every time

Elaborate
ebin. They accept support through airstrikes. That's about it. Really, it would be more accurate to say they're allied with Russia (though still inaccurate overall)

You are retarded, deal with it.

ebin

Every time.

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Just so you know, we're done here and the facts speak for themself.

ML right, autistic anarkiddies wrong. That's the way it goes every time.
/you

Poe's Law is in full effect

fixed

Wew, you could say the same thing about Assad and Baathism, another pseudo-"""socialist"""" ideology with nationalist overtones that slaps a friendly face on capitalism.

At least the Baathists at least they don't go around saying that the USA won the Cold War because it was more free and that "USA is development" like Ocalan

Look I feel you I want things to go beyond the super-powers and develop into a real working class rebellion. But Rojava is as dumb as posting images of Assad the Lion (whose only virtue is that he's drawing America into another battle that will sap its military strength and thus make proletarian revolution on the world scale)

Democratized and horizontalized capitalism is still capitalism. "Democratic confederalism" is localist utopianism that does not abolish the seed of capitalism with its lateralized cooperatives; it's a form of statecraft which is by definition bourgeois and literally bourgeois in the already-existent presence of a Kurdish bourgeoisie controlling matters, which is modeled to remain influential too.
Wew.

Put on the tankie or Stalin flag.

And I would.

That sounds like an oversimplification. Mind sharing your source?

Nobody is pretending it is. To say that DFSNS hasn't made leaps towards socialism and that their program isn't ultimately socialist is to be intellectually dishonest. They've already brought all industry under the jurisdiction of the communes, and the vast majority of enterprises are run democratically as cooperatives. Just because they didn't immediately and fully abolish markets doesn't mean that the project isn't socialist, or that they seek to maintain cooperatives indefinitely. All the evidence points to the opposite being true, and because of this land owners and other bourgeois seek to overthrow the project through parties like the KDP. Frankly, your views are based more on a dogmatism then reality. There's no evidence that the bourgeois are "controlling matters", if they were then there would be no TEV-DEM project to begin with and the KDP would be the ruling party.

I didn't say it was nothing, I said it didn't make them allies.

Phil pls go

This is not socialism.

Read Marx.

Socialism predates Marx btw.

It is not a false equivalence

What are you even saying. To say that democratizing capitalism has anything to do with socialism as you said here is retarded.
Yes, and so does utopianism. What a coincidence.

Think hard before your next reply and look at the webm . Not gonna bother with you if you can only muster illiterate, uninformed gibberish.

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the government everything, but the human being nothing. The United States represents
development.
meforum.org/399/abdullah-ocalan-we-are-fighting-turks-everywhere

To be fair you could say the same for the Paris commune, the question isn't whether or not it's socialist in terms of it's mode of production (it isn't, and neither was the commune), but whether or not it is a dictatorship of the proletariat and if they intend to abolish capitalism in the future.

I'm saying that creating a planned economy doesn't just happen. It's a process you dingus. You think the value form is just abolished overnight? Get real m8. Centralization of production is a process, and I don't know why you think planning through institutions that are essentially soviets is somehow not going in the direction of planned economy.

people change, user

Fél kettökor, elvtárs.

No, because the Paris commune was an actual DotP with bourgeoisie excluded and its influence completely gutted. It was proletarian instead of class-collaborationist. The French bourgeoisie did everything in its power to stop it because it existentially threatened its existence.
I agree, which reflects itself on the nature of Rojava's "revolutionary" body of theory and whether its definition of capitalism and post-capitalism makes sense or not. Words are meaningless when not adhered to or defined improperly.

Centralization doesn't start with the democratization of decentralized production.

I asked you to stop wasting people's time and you're doing it anyways.

I agree, I was just taking issue with the way you were phrasing it, which I think was confusing the issue and making it sound like you were saying capitalism could somehow be abolished within a single region.

Planned production doesn't have to be through a party or state. Just because it's not the kind of planned production you would do doesn't mean that it's not planned production. Regardless, by your own standards any revolution that doesn't immediately abolish the value form isn't a real revolution, and frankly I don't think you would support any revolution by these standards.

Sad. source:en.rnp-f.org/2015/03/24/pkk-and-imperialism/

They're pretty explicit in what they mean by private property. Essentially, it's really personal property.
cooperativeeconomy.info/the-economy-of-rojava/

Aight.

Planned production, if not simply state-centralized capitalism, is by definition not going to be through a state. It will be through society itself, after it abolishes the State, money and class.
It has nothing to do with me.
Any revolution that doesn't have the true intent to abolish capitalism is not a real revolution, no. It has little to do with the immediate abolition of value production. The Russian revolution was an authentic and proletarian revolution despite turning to the right within a matter of 4 to 5 years.
I would not even categorize national liberation as a revolution at all. Because I do not support national liberation.

Last time you've wasted our time. Read a book my nigga.

Literally le MCM + vote maymay. Hearty kek.

So you think these things will just be instantly abolished then? Furthermore, you need to actually qualify what that would look like, and why it wouldn't look like democratic planning through sovietesque institutions.
Good thing DemCon has that as it's intention, then.
DFSNS can't be considered national liberation for several reasons. They don't seek to create a nation state, they don't seek to secede from the current state, and the project isn't limited to geograpical borders.
Frankly you're wasting mine and everyone elses time by making such poorly thought out arguments

Not really. Collectivizing private property is essentially doing just that anyways. Just because the rhetoric doesn't jell with you doesn't mean that they haven't taken steps through planning production.

No. Dictatorship of the proletariat.
.Furthermore, you need to actually qualify what that would look like, and why it wouldn't look like democratic planning through sovietesque institutions.
No, you precisely don't. When you do, you are a utopian. Blueprinting and orchestrating hypothetical socities is the bedrock of utopian thinking which is why it will and has always failed. Always.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/letters/43_09.htm
It doesn't, because it rests upon idealist notions of capital and property and what value production does and does not entail. On top of this, its methodology is utopic.
Localist liberation is merely a subset of territorialism. It's the regional-municipal equivalent of national liberation.

Yes, because collectivizing =/= abolishing property. It's in the term.
It has nothing to do with me in person. It has to do with the fact that things aren't shaped out of ideals, but material reality.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
The important feature of capitalism is exclusivity: as long as there is an instance restricting free access to the means of production, private property exists. It doesn't matter whether that instance is an individual, a state, a corporation or a cooperative. As long as commodity production continues, you have capitalism, nothing else. You reproduce wage labour as a consequence of reproducing capital as an automatic subject.

No, you are. Read a book for once in yuor life. This is the last time I'm bothering with you again.

imagine thinking leftcoms ever did anything

You know the Leftcom memes are just memes, right?

Imagine taking memes for reality.

It's not utopian if it works m8.

Look at the situation on the ground. None of the local bourgeois or landowners support the PKK or participate in its institutions, they all try to support the outlawed parties getting btfo for trying to undo the revolution.

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at least they managed not to kill proles

THE GLORIOUS HISTORY OF US FALSE FLAGS

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Americans, when will they learn?

Indeed, capitalism "works". The utopianism lies in the illusion that it is not localist capitalism and will ever be anything but.
Private property persists and Rojava is decidedly led by mostly bourgeois factions and individuals.

Imagine thinking being the second or third largest party nationally, organizing the biggest threat to the bourgeois establishment and summoning the constant impediment by liberal parties is nothing while constantly organizing general strikes and attempting to build workers' councils which gets thwarted by the nation's "socialist" party.

Didn't you hear?; establishing Taylorist state capitalism and maintaining it at all costs while killing off proletarian revolutionary activity is the entry point for having an opinion.

i'm not the same user though

I'm starting to think that "alt-right" alternative media started utilizing that term in order to discredit the notion of a false flag in the eyes of the public

Can you put your leftcom flag back on and quit saying every single thread? Thx

it's so obvious

Julia Ioffe is such a cliche Jew that makes me not surprised when people buy into Holla Forums antisemitism

For all you people saying that Rojava is a US puppet