A case for the Palestinian national bourgeoisie

Why did you post a picture of Mao? He would certainly agree with the OP:

In fact the entire point of Maoism was to make a broader analysis of class contradictions in "foreign-dominated" countries and to shift the decisive cleavages accordingly.

...

Israel = apartheid ethno-state

lol save your brainlet rantings to the comments section of the Guardian m8

kill yourself Zionist retard.

Reminder:
youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA?t=2m6s

This is what retarded pro-Israel """leftists""" support.

You can't be a fascist if your country is not in a structural position to impose its will upon others.

Supporting the Palestinian NB is part of an ANTI-Zionist program.

What do the people who shout ISLAMO-FASCISM!! at everything say about this actual, straightforward Zionist fascism?

Almost every "national liberation" movement resulted in crypto-fascism and neocolonialism because they were taken over by the national bourgeoisie. What makes you think Palestinians and their NL struggle will be any different? This is why I prefer the democratic confederalist solution.

I'm an American Jew, and I'm also pretty openly anti-Zionist in my community. I'll tell you this:

I have had, no joke, two rabbis and respected members of my community tell me that Israel couldn't possibly be fascist because Ben-Gurion was a "labor Zionist." I've also had people tell me that Israel can't possibly be fascist because, I quote, "We, as Jews, wouldn't put others through the same things that our community went through in the 20th century."

They are on 2000 different layers of self-delusion.

Also:

turd worldists would disagree but whatevs.

To be fair, Israel isn't exactly a "fascist" country because it doesn't have a fascist economic system. Racist country, yes. "Fascist", no.

It's the same problem with leftists in 'Murrica calling Trump a "fascist". Yeah, Trump is a POS but he's not exactly turd position.

This is demonstrably wrong. South America only experiences democracy inbetween periods of US/Anglo imperialism, African democracy is virtually impossible where European influence is still strong and only a moron would say Asia is less democratic now than a hundred years ago.

This is the logic of some mouth-breathing reactionary at the bar who says Colonialism was good because "look at Africa now!", but masked with a pseudo-Marxist language.

Name your examples. No Marxist denies the potential of historically progressive role of the bourgeoisie under conditions of pre-capitalism or dependent capitalism.

And I prefer international communist revolution, but what I prefer needs to take the backseat to what is being done, what works and what is feasible. Ideas when translated into reality need to deal with imperfections of reality, and if you can't make that jump you don't understand Marxism. To propose a different, pseudo-radical alternative so you can withdraw from the debate while maintaining a facade of critical thinking will get you nowhere.

That's fair to say, yes, but Israel's government and popular parties are dangerously close to it. I'm guilty of using fascist as a buzzword, but they do engage in apartheid and Israel is functionally an ethno-state.

read Marx.

Many historical victims of Fascism seem to think that because they suffered under it, they're automatically immunized from its influence forever, which makes them twice as prone to it

my brain hurts

Shouldn't the struggle for self determinism always trump the will of an oppressive ethnostate?

kys fake socialst we are not going to allow one ethno state to replace the other with genocide. One federal state solution now.

Unless they're specifically talking about moving towards a turd positionist economic system, they're just racists, not fascists.

A "turd positionist" economic system has never existed in any fascist country. In the case of Germany and Italy, their economies were ultra-capitalist and entirely controlled by corporations in partnership with a paternalist govt.

There is literally nothing wrong with Israel.

Would you characterize Israel's economy in this way? They seem pretty much like a racist Sweden.

*blocks your path*

Truly a mystery for the ages.

I thought it was posted in a tone suggesting OP is wrong because Mao didn't have to do it

I am not an Antideutscher, but I agree that Palestinian national "liberation" is not a socialist cause.

It doesn't matter whether the Palestinian people are oppressed by Israeli capitalists or Palestinian capitalists. The whole idea of national "liberation" is contrary to that of socialism. It places nationalism over class struggle.

Being opposed to ridiculous crypto-bourgeois ideas of national "liberation" doesn't make you a supporter of Israel.

Palestine would not be an ethno state.

Go back to Tumblr and kill yourself. This is on the same level as "non-whites can't be racist because of muh power structures".

This is the sort of political insight a 16 year old would have. It reminds me of anarchists who say there's no difference between living under Fascism or in Sweden because both have states and thus are equally oppressive. This one-dimensional interpretation of power is basically a bad caricature of Socialism, and Socialists have been trying to get rid of it since the 19th century.

No one said open supporter, just useful tool. Israel, the US and virtually ever aggressive power today doesn't merely want to destroy a nation, they also want to mold its opposition to make it as divisive and self-isolating as possible, so no coalition between oppressed groups can strike back. To demand a Socialist purity test in a situation where survival is primal would definitely buy into their agenda.

Yes, and for the most part, despite some excesses, both statements are right. If you don't believe in structural inequalities and imbalances of power and you think ideas and attitudes stand above material issues you might find better company among Fox News dads than Leftists.

Most Palestinians equate "Zionist" with "Ashkenazi", so yes.

Source?

The problem people like you have is that you don't differenciate between institutionalized racism and racism as a way of thinking. Both are of course reinforced by capitalism, but in a different way.
Institutionalized racism affects those whose discrimination is currently beneficial to capitalism. Historically, this group has been non-whites, because most capitalists have been white. If this was to change however, there could be institutionalized racism against white people too.
Regular racism is reinforced by capitalism as well, but not actively. It is a reflection of material conditions and especially a lack of class-consciousness. When non-white workers realize the conditions they face, they will look at the capitalists and see that most of them are white. Instead of targeting them for the fact that they are capitalists, they will associate being white with being an oppressor. This favours notions of race, which are just a side-product of current capitalist societies, over the very root (exploitation of workers) of capitalist society. Why should socialists threat it any different from other ideas of racial class-collaborationism?

You think of "black people" as not being in power and "white people" as being in power if you talk about power structures and race. This is fundamentally flawed, as the bourgeoisie and not "white people" are in power. Capitalism is a system based on class, not on race. Talking about "white people" being in power completely ignores this.

...

youtube.com/watch?v=51re3q1yQmk

Wow this shit is repulsive, I used to be a return to 1967 borders type guy but shit like the really make me question whether the idea of having a Jewish state doesn't inevitably lead to this type of ethno-nationalism.

Damn I feel for you brother this shit must be hard. I have a Jewish friend who is pretty left-wing in most senses but when you start talking about Israeli Apartheid or BDS its like his brain shuts off. Every criticism of israel is based on anti-semetism and every jewish anti-zionist is self-hating. You must get a lot of shit.

You might find better company not on this website. Your one dimensional understanding of power is based around liberal idpol not class analysis. Go back to reddit.

Every state leads to ethno-nationalism. A one-state solution doesn't end this logic.

Your subpar analysis of racism is completely besides the point. I never denied an economic interpretation of racism, I just said it's stupid to hold two groups of different position up to the same standards when it comes to speech, because one has the hability to act on it and the other doesn't, and I have nowhere suggested race is a class, or that white people are by definition a ruling class. You're arguing against someone in your own head.

IdPol can be divisive if used by the wrong people, it's not divisive by default. Undoing different hierarchies that remain as consequence of historical processes has been part of the materialist worldview since forever.

Like I said, this is Fox News dad talk, but masked poorly as leftism.

Given that the level of class analysis ITT has been "well both are capitalists so both are bad", I don't feel particularly bad for this

citation badly needed. Is canada an ethno-nationalist country?

Undoing different hierarchies by creating new ones? How? And why do you focus on racism as if it was a cause by itself, and not on capitalism as the system that perpetuates it?

You are in fact defining "white people" as a class, because you claim that they are in an inherently powerful position in society, even though there is no base to this. (Do "white people" as a collective own the means of production? No. Does most capitalists being white make a white worker inherently powerful? No.)
White workers are not any more able to act upon anything, including racism, as black workers.

"It's okay if I do it!"
Idpol is always divisive, because its very concept is about IDENTITY and not class. Class is a direct part of the material reality of capitalism, whereas identity is just a "spook" with nothing behind it, to express it in Holla Forums's vocabulary.

I'm actually Canadian and can say there are a ton of white supremacists here. Not to mention our country's entire history is rooted in genocide/displacement of First Nations peoples.

I'm Canadian as well. Where are you from? I have never met a white supremacist in my life. Also idk what sense you are using ethno-nationalist in but Canada has been multi-ethnic for its entire history so idk why you think it would change all of a sudden.

Also our disgraceful treatment of our indigenous population doesn't really guarantee we will become an ethno-state.

Classic marxism

Westcucked mind won't see beyond his false dichotomy of capitalism and marxism.

You ask this as a rhetorical question except this is the first time you're bringing up this point and you just expect everyone else to reflexively agree with this accusation without bothering to substantiate or argue the point.
State your fucking point or fuck off.
If I'm to be a charitable, your point is that you're interpreting his statement (which obviously was about identity politics specifically) as referring to palestinian suppression in Israel/Palestine along with identity politics? And that his support of a one state solution is that which you mean is "the creation of new hierarchies"?
Not only is that a completely ridiculous view (What new hierarchy is being established? That which already exists between the classes?), you just chose to completely ignore the discussion he had in
My less chartiable understanding of what you're saying is that you think believing in institutional and subconcious racism is the same as establishing a hierarchy suppressing white people?

If you decided to read the damn thing you're quoting you'd see he chose to deliberately word it as a "historical process" and a couple of words later described it as part of a "materialist worldview". Huh, I wonder what those words could mean? Maybe he was referring to the very well established tradition of describing history and it's modern cultural forces as results of material realities such as the hierarchies and systems that reinforced them?

You are in fact inventing shit he said so that you can argue against that instead of trying to critically examine the shit you say yourself.
When the fuck was he talking about class? You're the only one who keeps talking about using racism as a veil to ignore class. He was talking about material and (relating to this) positions which is obviously true (to the point of being trivial), at least about most societies on earth.
Are non-white people improportionally represented among the empoverished? Are white people improportionally represented among powerful positions of society? Are white people more likely to improve social position from their birth position? Do white people generally have priviledges as a result of belonging to this empowered 'community'?
Unless you're a race realist fuck up (in which case I'm sorry I even bothered trying to speak with you) the answer to all these questions are trivially yes. This means that there's a describeable difference between white and non-white people. One that one may very well call a, oh I don't know, a hierarchy? Is this hierarchy a class? No. Did anybody claim this was the case? No, only the person you invented yourself in your own post.
Having an "inherently powerful position in society" doesn't mean belonging to a different class.
You first say that he claims white people belong to a different class (because it follows from claiming they belong to "an inherently powerful position in society"). Then you refute him by saying that "that's not what class is you dummy, it's the relations to the MoP."

Check this shit out.
Exactly the same mindless argument. Identity politics are divise because identity politics are divise, while class politics are not divise. If you wanted to actually shape an argument about problems with identity politics, try talking exactly about the problems with the statement I just rephrased your argument to be. It's necessary focus on personal experiences and, relating to that, the culture of modern discussion of identity politics being completely separated from material analysis, which practically results in identity politics being the same as a lack of politics. You can talk about the modern culture of identity politics being that of class collaboration in situations where there's no pressing need for that collaboration.
There's a lot of problems with identity politics in the way it functions in modern American and European culture. But it's NEVER any actual problem that stupid people like you talk about. It's always this 'idpol is divise' repetition. Fucking kys.

Why are the biggest loudest 'anti-idpol' people on Holla Forums ALWAYS also the most stupid?

I obvously mean
I'm not talking about the people themselves.

Yeah Palestine is completely non-exploitative and superior, this totally isn't just a politics of ending crippling oppression and a decades long imperialist "war", and marxist analysis has totally condoned this in other non-specified cases that everybody knows of. This is also the perfect example of people thinking dogmatically in this totally unrelated way btw.

Why do nazis also continually prove they're the people who would lose the least from a lobotomy?

Fascism is no "turd position" either