Tackling the "borders" and "nationality" spooks

capitalism is wage slavery, it is nothing like chattel slavery. you can quit your job but you can't leave the economy. you can change masters at will and upgrade your living standards (somewhat), which chattel slaves cannot do.

Number one reason immigration is bad: it strengthens right wing parties

kill yourself red fascists scum

NO BORDERS, NO NATIONS, STOP THE DEPORTATIONS

Illegal lumpenproletariat scum deserve far worse than deportation tbh

Strong Borders, Strong, Nations, More Deportations!

Unlike first world countries, which will reach third world living standards in a few years.

NO BORDERS, NO NATIONS, STOP THE DEPORTATIONS

This board is indistinguishable from Holla Forums sometimes.

Because it isn't ecologically sustainable. We need less consumption in the west, and less people living the dominant western lifestyle.

And they shouldn't. Because they're ecologically unsustainable, shallow and revolve almost completely around the consumption of commodities. Is that really what you want to emulate?

It's time to move away from this "Now it's my time to eat!".
People in the west need to close the borders and start living ascetic lifestyles.

Should whites and Chinese be deported from Africa? I assume you'd say yes.

That doesn't follow at all.

Then again I'd like some kind of return to colonialism where we just give all you social democracy from the barrel of a gun, so whatever.

Kill yourself you stupid nazi with hammer

The common man in the first world PROFITS from the exploitation of developing countries. Why do you think you have cheap fruit, commodities, electronics, clothes and all the consumer goods you can think of? They are nowhere near their real cost and you have burdened the global working class with it, because you have the capital to do so, backed by your imperialist state, which you voted into power.

You don't collect profit unless you have some ownership stake in a company that uses third world labor you fucking retard.

that's because our """"""brocialists"""" and """"""manarchist""""" comrades think allowing NazBols and Asserist faggots on here is a sign of being anti-idpol. so we have to tolerate these reactionary pin heads

...

No. Which part of the "no nations" did you miss?

Why would anyone on here say that, you tard?

But NazBols and Asserists are idpol.

Well, the Chinese are colonizers at the moment.

You LITERALLY collect profit every time you consume, and the fact that you don't see this only goes to show your myopic, muh privileged world view. The fact that the first world can consume like it does is because of the exploited global working class. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and all the citizens of the first world are complicit in this exploitation.

Just because you don't get cash in your hand it doesn't mean you don't profit. See

The Chinese state should be abolished.

wow maoists are this dumb

this is literally "but your clothes are made under feudalism!" repackaged.

Even the "middle class" lifestyle isn't sustainable.

The idea that it's all porkies is outdated. That might have been true one hundred years ago, but not now.
Besides, the western lifestyle is build on the backs of workers in developing countries. Fleeing to the west only so you can exploit the people left behind is disgusting.

stop pretending your filthy brown hands weaving a shitty burqa with techniques your grandma passed on from your grandgrandgrandma in the 300's is on the same level as a white man's handling of a modern industrial level weaving machine, backed up by a complex modern logistic system, all put in place by the incentives to be as productive as possible of the free market

kys cuck you are probably in the first world anyway, MaoistRebelNews

Want to go into business together?
You can drink my piss, and I'll drink yours, and because we're both consuming we'll both be unspeakably rich!

"DUDE capitalism exploits the working class, porky is fucking us over and keeping all the money to himself, we need to take over his shit to raise our living standards"

"Fucking subhuman shitskins need to learn their lot in life and accept they are poor, we can't extend money to other people, fucking illegal animal low class rapists"

Leftist hypocrisy at it's finest.

Why don't you go back to r/socialism?

You think NazBols and Asserists are full of shit? Tell everyone why. Make an effort and contribute, instead of whining about "Muh safe space".

If they subjugate people, they must be stopped from subjugating people. If they live peacefully, they can stay as much as they want. This is valid for every single person in every single region of this planet.

The lifestyle isn't sustainable, the quality of life certainly is.

Why? Do you think they are inferior or something?

Besides, if everyone in the West is bourgeois, it would be very much against their class interest to favor immigration that will ruin them. So that's actually an argument for them keeping their borders closed. If all you are offering whitey is to make his life worse to serve others, don't be surprised he'll never support you.

Go be a masochist somewhere else.

Asserists and nazbols are literally just communists who think
Jews = Bourgeoise
Working class = White people
Lumpenproles = Non-whites

Many of us support 100% open borders while acknowledging its unpopularity. This is one reason why democracy is bad.

This point needs to be made more often. The only way to reject the system besides sabotaging it, is divorcing yourself from the first-world "lifestyle".

Reject mass consumerism and embrace asceticism, or just leave the west behind permanently.

So they are not communists at all?

this is code for ethnostate
is code for guild socialism

there i win, now go back to your animu you fag

Holy shit this thread. NONE of you are free of revisionism. Here is what Marx has to ssay
—

"Every industrial and commercial center in England possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians.
The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he feels himself a member of the ruling nation and so turns himself into a tool of the aristocrats and capitalists of his country against Ireland.
This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organization. It is the secret by which the capitalist maintains its power. And that class is fully aware of it."

Please dont let porky convince you that nationality is real. Marx died for your stupidity.

So the socialist answer to the global working class is basically "Fuck you, I got mine!"?
Disgusting.

The conditions of late stage capitalism simply don't allow for more development, and in any case countries raising their living standards is the exception rather than the norm.

And so are the citizens of the third world, for they do produce and destroy the planet.

They are Holla Forumstards who just realized daddy Trump probably doesn't care about normal people.

n-no! we must rise up defeat the KIKE bourgoisie and remove the NIGGER parasites. then we can free the WHITE PROLETARIAT from PORKY (FUCKING KIKES)

This "quality of life" is directly related to this "lifestyle". That's because in the west the idea of "quality of life" is directly tied into consumerism. "I live a good live because I have McMansion and because I consume."

Asceticism or not consuming is "poverty" and "misery."

You do that, while I tackle the "labor theory of value" cucks.

quit pretending two european races are the same as niggers, mudshits to europeans

The global working class should take care of the global working class' revolution. If the west is entirely bourgie as you say, they have neither a role nor an interest in your revolution. Go ahead, go preach revolution in Haiti.

They were for the longest time.

Except some people here are not even arguing from that angle. The point is that the western "lifestyle" is fundamentally exploitative. Almost all the consumption within this system is based on exploitation, especially of workers in non-western countries.

Gulag yourself classcuck

This is like blaming slaves for being slaves, what kind of retarder logic is this?

These guys got the right idea.
Nationality isn't real, borders are not real, the working class knows no borders, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, for it's built on the backs of the global working class

Read a fucking book.

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Go back to r/crimethinc.

gay music but proper message

borders and nationality exist insofar as most people are spooked by them already.

to whine about people being opposed to immigration is to whine that you can't change what piece of the capitalist pie you make up, as opposed to getting angry that you've been cut up and baked into a pie in the first place. mass immigration won't get rid of capitalism, it'll just shift the distribution around and probably burn the planet faster. only by tackling porky can the pie actually be abolished.

what i'm saying is sausage rolls > pies.

Good to know the majority of Holla Forums are fake socialists. Literally worse than /r/socialism.

1. To put it simply I don't want to live in a country which is majority non-white. I think some feeling that you don't belong and marginalization is inevitable when you are a minority. This isn't even touching on the cultural resentment people have towards whites and the fact that affirmative action will never be legislated away and probable deepened as countries get more non-white.

2. Immigration isn't a solution to anything the amount of people who can immigrate to first world countries is tiny on a utilitarian level it is relieving virtually no suffering. Ending imperialist foreign policy and abolishing third world debt is massively more useful. Also if western countries had open borders are living standards would be completely decimated within decades.

3. It is entirely political unfeasible. Mass immigration is hugely unpopular and the levels of immigration right now are already creating a right-wing backlash. If we had open borders now there would be mass deportations in the next election cycle.

4. Cultural incompatibility is a real issue especially with people from the MENA region. Many immigrants are also fair-weather citizens and just come here to make money before retiring at home. Immigrants in the past moved to countries stayed there and embraced their culture. With globalization many immigrants have divided loyalties.

5. Why is mass immigration something only white countries need have. In your post you entirely focus on Europe and North America. Japan and South Korea have equal living standards but no one ever expects them to take immigrants. Even places like China would receive immigrants if they had open borders. I would be OK with the cultures/races of the world mixing together but instead what is happening is everyone comes to white countries while the rest of the world maintains ethno-states.

Basically fuck off with your self-righteous bullshit I am willing to help out third world countries, but not when it massively damages my own standards of living. Mass immigration is like the worst possible solution to world poverty.

The idea of quality of life is pretty objective, it means living the longest possible with the best health possible. You self-hating suburbia kids drink the Capitalist kool-aid of "mass consumption is a gift to us" and the one of "you are privileged to live in this country and should be thankful to the almighty gods of liberty and the market", and gave it a pseudo-Marxist twist to satisfy your need for rebellion.
I say no to your trashcan.

Slaves are responsible for being slaves, for slave liberation cannot come unless the slaves themselves revolt. Since their condition is directly tied by whether they act on it or not, they are responsible for it, are they not?
Of course, individual slaves are not, but guess what, neither are westerners or third-worlders or whatever.

I mean what's you two idea of a revolution? Getting the third world to put you against a wall because we're complices in… being born in the first world? Either stop hating yourselves or get off Holla Forums and start cutting yourselves or something.

t. Bourgeois teenager

They may think all Jews are bourgeois, or most of them. But last time I checked they didn't think all bourgeois were Jews.
Spooked? Yes. But they're not nazis.

The rest is hyperbole as well. At least as far as the theoretical framework goes. (Which still isn't socialist)

Nice memes.

I think that the fascists are on the rise since Holla Forums subversion

You sure art holier than us.

Socialism isn't popular either. Plenty of bad -isms are popular. Popularity doesn't matter, seizing power and forcibly implementing socialism should be the goal.

Hi Holla Forums

I want this meme to die
Mass immigration also exist in non whites countries, Saudi Arabia newspapers rants about muh criminal immigrants all the time.

1. Spooks, spooks, spooks.
2. "Fuck you I got mine"
3. But the revolution, implementation of communism and reappropiating all of porky's resources is inevitable. Funny how it's only unfeasible when it comes to dealing with icky brown people huh?
4. More spooks. Yes of course people have genetically ingrained beliefs, education won't solve this because we're all third world subhuman shitskins right?
5. "HWITE PEOPLE ARE THE REAL VICTIMS THIS IS anuddah shoah"

Lmao kill yourself asserist

And that's the crux of it right there. Off yourself, porky.

So this thread is basically just twitter goons pretending to be maoists right?

@sovietfangirl: the thread.

I am explicitly rejecting the western "lifestyle". How is that "lifestylism"?
Do you really think conspicuous consumption is compatible with socialism?

Assuming you are actually a third-worldist not living in the west:

Your idea of "socialism" is migrating so you can be the person sitting in that chair. You don't want socialism, you want to be a porky. Fucking disgusting.

What the fuck are you on about? Did you actually read the original point?

The idea of "quality of life" in the west has gone way beyond "living a long healthy life". It is now defined by consumption.

Again. Not my point. The exact opposite actually. The west needs to be depopulated, or at the very least stop destroying this planet, learn to produce their own stuff again and stop enslaving workers in developing countries. Including buying up and monopolizing local resoruces.

You never know, IRL maoists can be obnoxious as all hell. Maybe it's just someone who has trouble connecting with people, an a-social type. Spergs out whenever people disagree etc.

Are you an autist? DemCon is not ethnonationalist.

don't worry, capitalism has that covered. just wait until production is even more automated and third world countries have no means of pursuing an export-oriented development strategy.

Am I on fucking Holla Forums?
What the fuck is going on here?

kek

So, we literally just need Communism.

Holla Forums is about 5% Holla Forums, so there's always that smell in the air

Oh please spare me your bullshit you shitty succdem.

"Socialism is successful on muh tiny scandinavian countries, we just need to enslave half of the world population".

I hope you don't call yourself "socialist"

That's precisely what lifestylism is. Your adopting a lifestyle in order to impotently combat capitalism.
No but individuals dropping out of the western lifestyle will have zero impact on the overarching mode of production. It's idealist nonsense.

theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-social-anarchism-or-lifestyle-anarchism-an-unbridgeable-chasm
You gotta read Bookchin. Not just google him.

I'll take that as a yes.

you're not getting me to go off on a tangent about how Scandinavia is still poisoned by neoliberalism and only by imposing a system of multilateral capital controls with an international clearing union and a mandate for balanced trade can we actually achieve social democracy and fair third-word development, because I know that's what you want me to do, but you're not getting it, so there!

the west does need to be depopulated as does most of the world. all maoists have to offer is based depopulation ideology

The resources fueling remaining western industries are still largely coming from developing countries, bought at rock bottom prices.
"Communism/socialism" is not having an invisible class of slaves providing you with raw resources.

Capitalism is fueled by consumerism. You can argue that that any form of action is "impotent" because a single individual doesn't have a lot of influence, unless they're capable of actually destroying the world.
This sounds more like an excuse to me to engage in exploitative lifestyles because "What difference does it make :^)?"

Are you a leftcom?

So how do we end conspicuous consumption and capitalism itself if we're not even willing to take the slightest action against it because "muh lifestylism"?
We need people to drop out of the system, reject it, sabotage it and show viable alternatives. Stop thinking that a single form of action is an end-all. It is just one of the many actions that must be undertaken.

And I've read Bookchin. I don't recall his attitude "do nothing whatsoever, just sit on your ass like Bordiga."

The world doesn't need to be depopulated, though. If we stop using so much plastic, stop getting a new mobile phone every year, stop eating so much shit meat, stop doing agriculture like retards, stop using our cars for everything, stop waging war, stop importing food from 3,000km away and exporting it another 3,000km away, stop cutting hectares and hectares of forest for rare woods, and if we start reducing, reusing and recycling, then there is no need for depopulation anywhere on this planet.
Fortunately all you need for that is Communism, not retarded Bourgeois guilt.

Optimally the third world would launch a total embargo against the west. That would kill off consumerism rapidly.

This is very important. I don't think most of Holla Forums realizes this, specially not SocDems and Nazbols.

It would not. Why would the third world kill itself by cutting its source of capital?

Have you ever seen a person eat cash or digital money?

"Capital" doesn't feed the developing world. It enslaves and degrades it. Turning them into slaves for the globalist capitalist hydra.

Do they still need it? Does China still need the West? All we do is consume their stuff. They have all the factories, plenty of technology. Our "capital" has no value, only our services and goods they can use.

lel

Read Marx.

China is hardly a third world country.

if they don't need the west then why is their economy still based on selling shit to us?

Saudi immigrants are basically enslaved guest workers who aren't even given citizenship. The type of immigration policy pursued in Europe and North America is totally unique in the world.

I'm not concerned about protecting culture or nationality. I think its entirely reasonable to expect to be treated worse when I am in a minority. I am literally looking out for my self-interest you need to actually read Stirner instead of just parroting the word spook.
Pretty much. I'm not going to destroy my own standards of living to benefit the muh privileged minority of third worlders who are able to emigrate.
I don't believe this and its pretty questionable whether Marx actually did. If you dont see how mass immigration makes first world revolution less likely you are retarded.
4.4. More spooks. Yes of course people have genetically ingrained beliefs, education won't solve this because we're all third world subhuman shitskins right?
I don't believe in "scientific" racism but many Muslims view themselves as part of a global community in conflict with the west. There are 2nd and 3rd generation muslims in Europe who have not been integrated. Culture is a complex thing and not something you can educate away.
>5. "HWITE PEOPLE ARE THE REAL VICTIMS THIS IS anuddah shoah"
This isn't even related to what I said.

Overall 2/10 post, you literally strawmanned everything I said and didn't actually address any of my points. I would genuinely love to be educated out of these beliefs because they prevent me from organizing with anyone, but that is a shit attempt at convincing someone.

Mostly because the Chinese elites still want our luxury, Vebelen goods. Basically, their bourgies exploiting the workers to buy Mercedeses and designer handbags.

With a workers movement that ushers in a complete change in the production process. Setting up some anarcho-amish commune so you have the illusion you aren't participating in the western lifestyle isn't going to help bring that along.

wow seems legit

China buys MdPs to Europe, but they're not third world anyway so…

Also grabbing as much IP as possible, and dollars that can be traded for oil and other resources. Though in that second part, they have plenty of direct contracts.

And how will we get that workers movement if we don't create the basis for it?

That's not what I'm suggesting. What is up with this "this or that" attitude? You can both reject the consumerist "lifestyle" while creating the basis for a workers movement. And the latter is no excuse for willingly participating in the former.

Start your own cooperative for example, is isn't hard (speaking from experience).

Look, real talk: the First world right now is generating huge amounts of technology and goods. Swamp it with third worlders, and the ethnonationalist wars that follow will end that, and everyone is worse of.

The only way forward is that some people reach FALC first, and then skim off the fat to uplift the rest.

Free movement makes nationalists mad so I support it

It also helps the global fight against the bourgeois division of labour, whats not to like

Muh Jews. Muh Western Aid for Jews.
I'll stop now because if I don't I'm going to hit the character limit in expletives and wind up on a CIA watchlist for writing torture fantasy about the saud family.

Suffice to say I would endorse any action up to and exceeding nuclear attack as the last strike from beyond the grave of social democracy, a stupid idea too pure for this world.

What a bunch of spooked authoritarian Stalinists.

Immigration is pretty much a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, while being something you have to take a strong stance on for normies to acknowledge your existence.

Holla Forums on SocDems

Holla Forums on immigration

Lmao

Your daddy hitler sucked arab dick. Kill yourself

Not Holla Forums, just perpetually raiding stormniggers

because shills are active as fuck here.
with official support from the board owner, two nazis can easily pots anti-immigration propaganda wherever possible.

generally the Holla Forums community is obviously antifascist because nobody is falling for that shitty propaganda anymore.

s/pots/post/

stopped reading there

/leftypol is comprised of white kids who don't like brown people, sort of like /pol

But if there are no immigrants, then there are less desperate chumps coming in to take whatever shitty jobs they can get.

You do realize that the first world is paying farmers not to farm, sending trawlers to fish in African waters, buying up agricultural land in the developing world and speculating with it, and dumping food at below market prices so local farmers can't compete, right?

The reason why food security barely exists in Africa and other places is because of the actions of the first world. Including foreign "aid" that has made these countries dependent, lead to unsustainable population booms that strain local infrastructure and is keeping them bound to a neo-colonial economic system.

You do realize 5 out of 10 top producers of wheat in the world are first world countries right?

because most of the incoming migrants practice cultures incompatible with that of the countries receiving them, thus disrupting their societies and communities

Not an argument.

Have you tried not crying about the evul neo-colonialism and attempted to improve conditions of the working class via unions?

these are just a few examples of the culture disparity. please explain how these two very different cultures are compatible

Getting tired of this shitty meme. Fucking read and educate yourselves.

really activates my synapses

no. i'm speaking in a generality as it applies to islamic populations
not really. public opinion is very well studied, and shows most westerners have similar views and values; views and values contrary to those of most muslims

Go back to Holla Forums

does that mean you don't have an answer?

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What is happening to my Holla Forums?

Literally the same

What most people fundamentally don't understand is that in a global sense, you are porky. Or that isn't quite right. You're porky's little pet. Even if you radically oppose porky, just by living in this society and consuming, you are propping up porky and in return porky gives you better table scraps than he gives to the rest of the world.
In order for the world to survive, everyone who is wealthy enough to have the money and time to be on this board needs to drastically reduce their standard of living. The West should be invaded by the third world in order to drive our standard of living DOWN by dilution. True sustainable socialism will require us to return to our small-plot agrarian rooots. Nothing else can fix our problems. We should strive to be more like the third world, not the other way around.

Economics dont work like that user.
Capital is not a finite resource.
Read marx

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The fact that it even is 4% is already alien to a large degree.

This tbh. It is laughable that Holla Forums talks about oppression in the first world when even the poorest wagecuck makes in a day twice what an asian worker makes in a month.

And that Asian gets far more than African child soldier, your point?

Exactly! First worlders cannot even begin the poverty of the global working class in Africa and Asia; They're all porky's pets.

True, but I wasn't defending Islam's liberal credientials, but critiquing the validity of treating muslims as a meaningful group in this context
also, using that graph as some sort of representation of the opinions of the total muslim or national populations is like going to a church and asking if the congregation loves jesus, the extrapolating the nation's religiousness off that study

$$$polyps$$$ detected

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Make sure to buy your Che Guevera t-shirt from hot topic and show all your friends what a cool leftist you are. That'll show porky !

You're a spoiled western faggot on a japanese imageboard dominated by neo-nazi LARPers. Keep reading your theory. Hopefully when we import enough of the real working class from the third world they'll rise up and hang you for being a bourgeois parasite.

and you are a Holla Forumsyp troll, turd worldist or a retard, but the distinction between the three is meaningless

Becasue I want socialism to increse the avreage standerd of living for the working class in my country. I fsocialism dosen't offer that then why sould I be a socalist.

Mass Immigration drives down wages for the native working class. Also for every penny in cheaper goods the west gets from overseas labor. Thats two pennies in unemployment or lower wages for the western working class. If western prolatariats were porkies frend we wouldn't be advocating for the destruction of free trade. Also about the environmental argument. The reason there's so much pollution is lax environmental regulations. With stricter environmental regulations the quality of life would still be able to exist. Also mass immigration of people who want to kill gays and ban allchole. Won't work in a society where homosexuality and allchole are widely excepted.

Nation states are nothing but a bourgeois tool of dividing and conquering, and the workers of the world have no country.

Yeah? And what's your local purchasing power?
The problems caused by capitalism cannot be solved by giving the whole world a consistent minimum wage. They're deeper than that. You have to abolish the material conditions which give rise to all exploitation.
They certainly can, once we secure the right of all to the productive forces and the full product of their own labor.
Clearly, the best way to liberate the third world is to uncritically defer to the neoliberal party line and march in lockstep with the Democrats. One global free market! No.
How do you not realize that the politics of class rule are based on aggregate bourgeois self-interest? Immigration only expands when it is in line with this interest. It will only go further to the nightmarish hellscape you seem to want, where all are equally poor except the porkies because we didn't, ya know, take care of capitalism first, when that is specifically in line with bourgeois interests.
Not that these interests should be opposed on principle, but when your idea of revolutionary politics amounts to giving the ruling class exactly what they want…
So why do you typecast proles as global criminals based on the country they happened to be born in? Wait, that sounds awfully familiar. Hmm…
I don't think any leftist holds that view. "Necessary sacrifices," are you kidding me? We're not choosing sacrifices to the angry god of capitalism to give it a more tolerable face, we want to end it.
However, we've had generations of unsuccessful and easily degenerated workers revolutions in the third world. Marx himself understood that a revolution would have to happen in the developed centers of the world to successfully resolve capitalism's contradictions and achieve global communism. First world proles have a certain revolutionary significance because success and failure of communist revolution are in direct proportion to the extent to which a movement faces up to capitalism as an inherently international system. The entire 20th century vindicates this view without any doubt.

This is right. Immigration is always "voluntary" on the part of the immigrant. This can be for economic conditions or other incentives provided by capitalism. There's a material contradiction between the immigrant's incentive to come in, and the native working class' incentives against this in the form of depressed wages, conditions, bargaining power, and employment opportunities. This rests on capitalism and the gatekeeping of socially necessary labor. It's not a fundamental fact on nature. It obscures the fundamental identity of interest shared by all proles to seek to favor one opposed group over the other, as the opposition is a perfectly reconcilable one.
Honestly, immigration proponents should realize sooner or later that having to move countries for economic reasons in the first place is an inhumane condition.

I'm not against immigration at all. In fact, it's part of what makes me want fully automated etc etc etc. The problem is that much of the immigration to the first world is driven by sheer economics and pushed by neoliberalism. Neoliberal immigration incites racism, which neolibs and reactionaries use to divide the workers. Furthermore, this immigration is used to cull the daring and brightest from the third world and force them into the power structure.