So this is an idea that I have been thinking about for quite some time.
With mass automation right around the corner. Is workers control over the state really necessary? Surly if a centralized state were able to implement a post-scarcity, luxury system - that did not require any human labour to maintain. Would workers control not just be an unwelcome imposition?
If a centralized, post-scarcity, luxury state were to exist, would socialists at that point not simply be reduced to arguing for decentralization? Would a centralized, post-scarcity, luxury state not be good enough as it was?
Would you consider an ideology that advocates for workers liberation from labour, yet not for workers control of the state to be Socialist?
god fucking damnit, how many times have you been told to fucking read a book on here already? Can you just go?
Christian Jackson
Yes.
Yes.
No.
No.
Your ideas are shit and would have us in chains to a machine we have no control over, just a more comfortable status quo. I hope you get gang raped by trannies and die of internal bleeding.
William Fisher
and what reason do the centralised statists have not to hoard wealth?
Ayden Rodriguez
This would be oblivion, not utopia. The commodity-form would still exist but commodities wouldnt have value, so people wouldnt have value. Post-scarcity is a fiction. Socially necessary labor cannot be eliminated, it would only change forms into art etc.
So your argument is that socialism is entirely predicated upon workers control of the State? If so, you may want to tell that to the many Tito worshipers here. Not once actually. I'm not Muke. Not a chance, babe.
So you admit that workers control over such a state would be unwelcome? Well I applaud your honesty. A superior form of life really. Among the masses. By far the most compelling argument for socialism has been the promised improvements in living conditions. If such improvements can be implemented without socialism, does that not make your ideology irrelevant?
If you get rid of the very concept of wealth, what could they hoard?
Luis Thomas
You must be new here. Porky wants it all and nothing but its entirety.
Jack Walker
If you are not familiar with this boards favorite and most prolific trip-fag. I can only assume that you are indeed the one that is new. I'm quite explicitly talking about a post-capitalist system here. There would not be any porkies.
Jonathan Edwards
Die in a fucking fire.
Hudson James
You aren't hoochie. If we're not in capitalism anymore why centralize anything? If nothing is scarce is there anything left to really centralize?
Connor Perez
Hoochie will be forgotten in a few months time. I have been a fixture since the start.
A centralized society is better able to defend itself, coordinate production, distribution, research, worship and disaster relief.
Ayden Lewis
Holy shit, you just keep getting worse.
Luis Fisher
Prove it Nah. You got here like a year after the board first started. Being cancer for longer isn't anything to brag about btw
Ayden Thomas
Why is worship a negative exactly? Religion can provide a number of positives to a society. Just because the supernatural religions of the past have been bad, does not make all form of religion bad.
Oh well that is quite simple. Consider Geo-political history to be an evolutionary battle ground. If decentralization were superior to centralization, we would see most states today be decentralized. Instead we see quite the opposite, with a historical move away from decentralization - bringing us to the modern, centralized, surveillance state. Now that is simply untrue.
Ryder Wilson
Religion can provide nothing that couldn't be provided nonreligiously. All religious requires people to submit themselves to a belief in something they should know better than believe in.
Ayden Lopez
Worker control over any state is unwelcome, the nature of the state is to ensure hierarchy is enforced and worker control means the state will be destroyed by being discarded piecemail or directly smashed.
I don't have an anime girl smug enough.
They can't and no, because your autistic dytopia places the lives of all in the hands of an unaccountable ruling class. Fuck off somewhere else you autistic cuckold, milo was better than you.
Jonathan Taylor
Exactly. And if you provide people with a positive belief system - you can provide benefits to both the individual and wider society. That is only descriptive of religions of the past, not all religion. Religion without super-naturalism is very possible.
Are you so arrogant, that you would not submit yourself to a entity that is superior to you in every conceivable way? I would love to hear exactly why you think that. Socialism does not have dominion over all fields of post-capitalism.
Matthew Murphy
Jesus Christ you are a cuck.
You're arguing for a monarchy with a "selfless and just king" and social democracy at the arm of a machine. Do you honestly think any socialist is going to agree that either of those things are good, let alone a combination of both, because dude automation lmao?
Chase Campbell
That's not socialism.
That's technocracy.
When will you stop promoting this utterly dystopian nightmare system (complete with virtual torture chambers and mass surveillance) as "socialism"?
Brayden Hernandez
This is why you dont google bookchin kids
Thomas Cox
Please do explain how exactly.
Is a fish not superior to a fungus? Is a dog not superior to a fish? Is a chimp not superior to a dog? Is a human not superior to a chimp? Why do you think that superiority would stop at humanity? I'm arguing for total control over just about everything to be handed over to an AI. A superior form of life. Do you not care about the welfare of humanity? My system would provide a luxury state for our species. Surly increasing the quality of life for all of humanity equally is something you would be in favour of? I would not know, that is why I asked. Are simple questions on the nature of socialism really so triggering?
I will not stop promoting it. I have never 'promoted Technocracy as socialism', indeed I frequently correct people that make such a connection. I was simply asking is you reds would consider a system that was in favor of liberating workers from labour (but not placing them in control of the state), a form of socialism. It was a question, not a statement you fucking autist.
Lucas Diaz
There's a thing as taking it too far.
Isn't that just full luxury communism?
Jordan Rivera
There are quite a few technicians in the OP pic, I don't see this causing any impact on jobs.
Cameron Brooks
Grey is a nice color
Bentley Richardson
if workers, of in this case (as labor would become obsolete), the mass of people, don't have control over the political economy, then the people in charge of the state could exclude people from post-scarcity through raw power for spooky reasons.
Brandon Johnson
There exists no superiority, only that which survives.
Luke Gomez
Am not saying the coming cyberpunk dystopia… But the cyberpunk dystopia is here.
Luke Gomez
Centralized forces get beaten by decentralized forces consistently throughout history. The most common model of military organization nowadays is the Mission Command model, which most definitely flies in the faces of your premise. By this absurd logic we would have adopted the kind of super centralized technocratic system that you sperg out about. Pure sophistry. Actually the surveillance state utilizes numerous contractors and non-state enterprises to do most things. You're talking out of your ass as usual.
Ayden Brown
pajeetmyson
Connor Sanchez
...
Dylan Rivera
I love people who don't have the faintest clue how politics works.
Yes, you would need community control and common ownership over the machines. Leaving them in the hands of some tiny ruling clique is the definition of stupidity.
