RTS games don't get played, because they don't have good tutorials.

Benjamin Anderson
Benjamin Anderson

You don't need an extensive tutorial for shooters. WASD and you're good. Almost everyone is familiar with that hotkey setup. Left-mouse is for shooting, STRG (or c) is for crouching. Shift for running. F for use.
You know what I am talking about.

But RTS Games fundamentally require a completly different mindset, handposition, motor skills and much more thought behind their hotkeys.
Most older RTS games don't even offer you the Grid as a hotkey layout. I currently want to replay Age of Mythology and the only hotkey ressource I got fro a grid was a mod that is no longer support on workshops.

I haven't played a single strategy game that teached me how to set up hotkeys and the concept behind using them. I bet most non-professional gamers don't even know about the concept of setting up camera savepoints.
And even if they knew. The skills and to aquire the familiarity to actually use them and use them well enough to get a benefit out of them is not present in the vast majority of players.

And the worst thing about all of this is that there is no fucking excuse. Camera savepoints. Control groups. Adding and removing from control groups. Tabbing between subgroups of selected units. The Grid Hotkey Setup and other things are concepts that are universally present in every single RTS and not a single developer ever thought about hiring Day9 or a another RTS player to maybe teach noobs about these basic mechanics and actually try to test their skills in the campaign.
Once you just start clicking buildings manually and maybe only use the A hotkey to issue an attack command, it's very hard to get out of that habit. You basically have to relearn the game.

I said it once, the RTS developers just SUCK. They refuse to learn or innovate at all and are too retarded to make a good tutorial.

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All urls found in this thread:

aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/hotkeys

Nathan Ortiz
Nathan Ortiz

Looking into RTS Developer offices

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Wyatt Wright
Wyatt Wright

I skip the tutorial in every game anyway.

Leo Sullivan
Leo Sullivan

I've tried to get into the RTS genre multiple times, but get bored because I already played C&C and they all feel like clones. The only one that seems to change it up a lot is WC3, which is on my to play list. Adding tutorials wouldn't help. They'd all end up being tedious text dumps with no sign of what the game has that makes it different from other games.

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Lucas Cooper
Lucas Cooper

try out sins of a solar empire.

Engages you and you have to be smart in your long term planning. its not about apm but how much intel you gather and how much you are stopping others from gathering intel on you.

Liam Harris
Liam Harris

I tried it a bit. I think what put me off of it was sitting in the void of space. Not a fault of the game just an internal bias I have.

Lincoln Taylor
Lincoln Taylor

I never liked them, because you're always in a hurry and you can't really carefully plan what kind of strategy you would want.

Oliver Diaz
Oliver Diaz

I never liked them, because you're always in a hurry and you can't really carefully plan what kind of strategy you would want.

There's a lot of truth to this. RTS games are a lot more about learning what other people have already figured out; there's not a lot of strategizing, and then applying that meta as fast as possible. As a professional RTS coach once said, "it's less about brains, more about hand speed"

Josiah Bailey
Josiah Bailey

You should have played Dawn of War instead

Liam Lee
Liam Lee

STRG (or c) is for crouching
STRG
The fuck?
(or c)
using c for crouch when ctrl is right fucking there if you don't have baby hands
What the fuck am I reading?

Benjamin Evans
Benjamin Evans

Supreme Commander 1 is GOAT.

Jayden Morgan
Jayden Morgan

What about fighting games? Most have pretty shit tutorials that don't teach you anything useful. Maybe none teach you the fundamentals of fighting games. When Evo comes around a lot of people pretend to care about fighting games but most of them don't even know how to play.

Jace Nguyen
Jace Nguyen

This isn't so much about a tutorial, but rather a meta-tutorial. There is usually a tutorial that teaches you the rules of the game, but what you are talking is a tutorial about tricks of the trade.

I am someone who pretty much only plays the campaign, and even that usually involves me turtling up until I have an army large enough to take out the enemy. I know about control groups, but when time comes to do the actual battle I am hopelessly lost, stuff happens so quickly that my strategy devolves into "just throw as much shit at the enemy as possible".

On German keyboard CTRL is labelled STRG (for Steuerung, the German variant of Control)

James Cooper
James Cooper

That's half the point. You're supposed to think on your feet. A lot of fags try to simplify the beginning of a match via build orders, since at the start you're usually building up for a couple of minutes anyway. But after that you're free to do whatever you want. Want to go heavy into cavalry? Spam cheap melee units while your ranged units pepper the enemy? Maybe send a small detachment to raid the enemy resource gatherers? Sometimes you pick a faction that lends itself to a particular strategy, like the Franks in AoE2 which have the best knights in the game, or the Byzantines which have cheap trash units and can advance to the last era for cheaper. This also allows you to anticipate the enemy if you know what their faction does best.
You've got a point in that knowing what certain factions or units can do gives you a large advantage, and the metagame often has a strong presence in RTS games (more than I would like). But actually being able to break the meta, adapt and catch your opponent off guard is what differentiates decent players from good players.

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William Allen
William Allen

F for use
The use key is E you fucker.
hurr durr RTS is shit because I can't read tooltips or check the fucking hotkey card
Git gud faggot.

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Luke James
Luke James

not rebinding ctrl to jump, shift to crouch and space to use at the very least

Luis Torres
Luis Torres

Try out a Total War game, a city builder game and Grand Strategy game.

Sorry, didn't remember to think about the Anglos The other user already explained it though.

The use key is E you fucker.
No. You need it to learn right or for a special ability. Do you even standardize your hotkeys, faggot?

You can't spam space as well as f though.

Jackson Brooks
Jackson Brooks

Yeah, you're probably right. I never cared to try and RTS games so what the hell do I know. I imagine, if you git fucking gud, you can overcome this huge barrier to entry, much like people who play fighting games learn to do so by repeatedly getting their ass kicked. However, it is fair to say that most fighting games at least have a training mode that explains its basic concepts.

Nolan Fisher
Nolan Fisher

his jump isn't right click
What a pleb.

Luis Sullivan
Luis Sullivan

You need it to learn right or for a special ability.
End your life in this very instant

Adam Gutierrez
Adam Gutierrez

The use key is E you fucker.
Half Life faggots are cancer incarnate.

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Nathan Reed
Nathan Reed

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Jaxson Morris
Jaxson Morris

Using ctrl for crouch when you could use it as a modifier key instead
Stop playing casual as fuck babby mode post-Halo FPS.

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Hudson Adams
Hudson Adams

Also you most likely use Hold instead of Toggle Crouch, thus furthering my disgust. There is no sense whatsoever in pointlessly holding down a key and wasting a finger that could be used to press other keys while toggled unless you are a slack jawed retard who can't tell the difference between standing and crouched height.

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Kayden Hughes
Kayden Hughes

hotkey card
I miss getting these with games. X-Wing, Jedi Knight, and Nox came with hotkey cards. You've stirred up feelings.

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Aiden Scott
Aiden Scott

14555023
lol

Jordan Ward
Jordan Ward

toggle crouch
fucking TOGGLE crouch
What the fuck is wrong with you? How do you crouch jump? How do you make quick ducks to lower your hitbox and briefly alter your movespeed while in a fight? Pure subhuman.

Mason Murphy
Mason Murphy

The problem with RTS games is that it requires a team of RTS players to coordinate with each other efficiently.

John Walker
John Walker

Rts games don't get played because the community is almost always fucking retarded and often goes out of its way (knowingly and unknowingly) to keep out new players until said game is dead or near dead. Eventually the rts genre as a whole gets labeled "Too hard" by fuck loads of people. Which is why Devs keep killing games in an effort to find the fabled CoD of rts games.

Logan Parker
Logan Parker

worrying about strategy, lol, just throw more mammoth tanks at the enemy until they die

Carson Carter
Carson Carter

age of mythology hotkeys
aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/hotkeys

Christian Hernandez
Christian Hernandez

most worthwhile RTS games:
Age of Empires II (I haven't played 1, maybe it fits too)
Age of Mythology (not the steam version)
Warcraft III
Starcraft

Luke Nguyen
Luke Nguyen

Age of Mythology (not the steam version)
What did they do to fuck up the steam version? I've been noticing this shit with RTS'. Such as warlords battlecry 3 having a ton of community balance breaking mods installed into the online versions so you have to track down a hardcopy to not get fucked.

Robert Price
Robert Price

I only play FPS and never games like Thief, the Dark Mod, Dark Messiah and other games with lean left and right

Yeah. And no one offers new players a grid or something like that.

Jonathan Cruz
Jonathan Cruz

Implying FPS' don't have lean

Jonathan Hughes
Jonathan Hughes

Every modern RTS since AoM shows the basics of RTS
camera movement
building units and buildings
basic economy
setting up rally points
basic what beats what
basic god powers and skills
grouping of units and formation

Those are pretty much the fundamentals of every RTS just as you described for FPS games.
Everything in-depth is in the in-game manual or you discover them yourself, just as how there is no tutorial for what is the best weapon in FPS.

Nathaniel Hall
Nathaniel Hall

Oh yeah? Do they teach you how to use camera savepoints and why you would want to set up a few?
Do they teach you cycling between control groups of infantry, archers, mythics, heroes and cav instead of all putting them in the same control group?
Do they touch you about cycling between production buildings to build units?
Do they teach you about using the shift command and what their uses are? Like scouting, focus fire or hunting?

Parker White
Parker White

Do FPS games teach you how to control your aim while firing?
Do FPS games teach you the difference between burst and single shot and when to use them?
Do STALKER games teach you which artifact to use and why?
Do tacticool/FPS games tell you explicitly which loadout is best in which scenarios?

Camden Jenkins
Camden Jenkins

Teached

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why OP is a brainlet that can't grasp good vidya.

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Colton Ward
Colton Ward

While not an RTS, I deeply enjoy HoMM3. It has that right mix of macro (towns, BO's) and micro (adventure map, combat). Every faction has a bullshit strategy or two, and you can even do a lot of cheese if you pick the right hero/start. But in a game where every endgame is bullshit OP, it actually evens out, surprisingly.

Jordan Gonzalez
Jordan Gonzalez

RTS is a shit genre because gooks have turned the meta into the easiest shit ever.

Easton Hughes
Easton Hughes

This is like asking an arena FPS to teach you what rocket jumping is. There's nothing stopping you from figuring it out on your own. And once you know that it's possible then it's not hard to imitate.
Also, none of the things you say are essential to playing RTS. Half of the things are common sense (I mean, have you really not thought of dividing units in several control groups? You have 10 numbers for christ's sake). The other half most likely would appear in the manual, but it's not like morons these days can be arsed to sit down and read up. Instant gratification is all people know nowadays.
HoMM3 is a great game, partly because of how absolutely insane heroes can become late in the game. I wish more games embraced the philosophy of balance through universal game breakage.

Mason Hill
Mason Hill

it's totally the same, because in my theoretical non-existant world, the majority of gamers and casuals aren't completly familiar with FPS

I totally support a diverse and multicultural society in western countries, because in my theory they can achieve the same amount of high trust, social cohesion and average intelligence as homogenous white countries

theory trumps evidence, If I just think really hard about things I never actually have to interact with the real world at all. It just has to make sense to be true.

This is like asking an arena FPS to teach you what rocket jumping is. There's nothing stopping you from figuring it out on your own. And once you know that it's possible then it's not hard to imitate.
Rocket jumping is a single thing that is not present in every single FPS.
What I talked about should be the very basics of every RTS game. They are universal.
It's like being able to use WASD while moving, while using the mouse to jump and mouse to look around.
It's so easy that it doesn't need to be taught. However these mechanics in RTS games need to be taught.

Henry Myers
Henry Myers

.
Not all RTS have shift commands.
Not all RTS allow you to tab through selections.
Not all RTS let you save camera points.
Also, I said arena FPS. Not plain FPS.
user, just read the manual and look up some hotkeys. Enable tooltips so they show up when you mouse over. Grab some tea/coffee/whatever and chill out while you learn to play the game. Think of it as an advanced tutorial. If you want to learn how to play the game better, you need to put in some effort. It's not a big deal.

Ian Ortiz
Ian Ortiz

Don't go grasping for insults just because you suck at RTS.
I'm merely pointing out to you that tutorials for FPS and RTS are already common and their respective commands are pretty universal already.
Like what you said:
If there's shift for running, c/ctrl for crouching for FPS
there's ctrl+number for grouping and using rally points for RTS

Those tutorials teach the basics, it's up to you to git gud.

Luis Gutierrez
Luis Gutierrez

Not all RTS have shift commands.
That's industry standard.

Not all RTS allow you to tab through selections.
That should be industry standard. Prety sure it is by now.

Not all RTS let you save camera points.
That is Industry standard for every modern RTS.

Also, I said arena FPS. Not plain FPS.
Yeah and I said what I said. Bite me.

user, just read the manual and look up some hotkeys.
You still can't comprehend what I am talking about.
My point isn't that it's just hard to learn hotkeys. If it's grid or has another layout except for shitty legacy keys, then it's easy enough.

Chase Stewart
Chase Stewart

I think the "R" in RTS is the greatest challenge for newcomers. Games that let you pause and queue up actions whenever you like, like FTL, are much more approachable for newcomers. You could keep the game strictly realtime in multiplayer, and offer achievements for beating singleplayer missions pauseless. I get the feeling this would evoke much autistic screeching from the RTS community, who would rather maintain the purity of their genre than compromise for popularity.

Bentley Mitchell
Bentley Mitchell

muh industry standard
while playing AoM
What the hell are you even complaining about? You know the game is old, deal with it or play something that caters to your percieved "industry standard".
Bite me.
Watch out, we got a tough guy over here.

Robert Gomez
Robert Gomez

tfw SCFA set the bar for a near perfect RTS
tfw devs refuse to copy it

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Landon Collins
Landon Collins

Pretty sure there are many RTSes that allow commands while paused.

Tyler Sanchez
Tyler Sanchez

Thats what i like about sins of a solar empire. There are buffers that prevent just early game autowins. Your pushing to get more planets raise a military but its not about microing everything and decisions split second. Its a long term game. Your making minute to minute decisions and if you fuck up which you will do alot. you fail your end game and the enemy will just obliterate you.

There is not a from my experience in playing it a auto win scenario. its a slow terrible grim march to victory. Pirates. Enemy ai or ai allies betraying you.

Luke Cox
Luke Cox

I'm a clicker because I never realised that hotkeys were the optimal option.
I don't even bother playing multiplayer matches because of it. I don't know, I'm only 22. Maybe there's still time.

Noah Adams
Noah Adams

RTS games don't get played, because they don't have good tutorials
nah, the real problem is lack of good singleplayer campaigns, that's what make or break RTS
Multiplayer is a very nice addon for it, but too many devs are obsessed with only the multiplayer aspect

Nathaniel Scott
Nathaniel Scott

Muh handholding
Trail and error nigger ever heard of it?
Tutorials are for pussies

Lucas King
Lucas King

HOI4 is a joke
doesnt even explain half the shit like navals and air

James Ortiz
James Ortiz

RTS games don't get played because everyone is scared of getting their asses kicked. That's why nobody plays fighting games either. Even here in these threads a lot of people only ever play against AI because they are scared of getting totally destroyed.

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Bentley Allen
Bentley Allen

It wouldnt be a problem if modern RTS were less focused on multiplayer and balance

Carson Lee
Carson Lee

multiplayer
But that's where all the fun is. Sure, old C&C games had good stories. But in the end of the day a skirmish against real players is more fun than a skirmish against AI.

Austin Martinez
Austin Martinez

But that's where all the fun is

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Samuel Russell
Samuel Russell

You can play rts just fine without any of that shit user.

Jayden Roberts
Jayden Roberts

RTS games don't get played, because they don't have good tutorials

This is the dumbest shit I have read this month.

Gavin Johnson
Gavin Johnson

But that's where all the fun is. Sure, old C&C games had good stories. But in the end of the day a skirmish against real players is more fun than a skirmish against AI.
Yeah. Until everyone gets the meta down so hard it becomes who can do the same pre-planned routine faster rather than strategy or even skill. AKA Gookclickers.

Cooper Scott
Cooper Scott

It's true though. Having to waste a ton of time building up a base when you don't know what you're doing then having it get wiped out almost instantly is a real motivation killer, a half hour of your life gone forever. It's much easier to understand what you're screwing up and adjust accordingly in Fighting, FPS and many other genres and there is nowhere near as much time wasted in the process. I really don't think it's asking much for a tutorial that covers basic then advanced things, then gives you a couple simple build orders so you don't get your shit pushed in while trying to figure things out.

Aaron Carter
Aaron Carter

Dude, are ya like, some level of braindead? Shit, as a kid I was able to figure out some basic shit in Starcraft from tips alone. Just like, read the tips or manuals. RTS games still have those, right?

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