TF2V, what is it? TF2V is a "pre-mannconomy" version of TF2 without the visual clutter and bloat. The only QoL additions is Pyro's airblast and the Engineer building carry. As well as additions of stock gamemodes such as Payload, KotH and Arena
WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS? Development is focused first on bugfixes, If/when that's all done then focus on weapons can be started. However weapons needed to be coded from the ground up, so unless you want to start that for us then don't ask for something not on anyone's radar right now.
Here is how to install revemu on windows, i.e. make it no-steam. Technically this needs to be done once by the guy who releases TF2V for the next version, so that the game will be standalone and run out-of-the-box. But anyone can do it. I have shit upload speed.
In case the link goes down, here is the original source: bir3yk.net/forum/topic_179/. Gonna need full package from 27.04.2016. Then an update from 20.01.2017, it's a single dll, goes into game root.
Start by placing tf2vintage folder in Source SDK Base 2013 Multiplayer, instead of sourcemods. Now Source SDK Base 2013 Multiplayer can be renamed to anything and placed anywhere, I will be calling it game root.
Optional: fire up the game to make sure everything works by creating hl2.exe shortcut and adding -game tf2vintage. See first pic. You won't need that shortcut after this, you can delete it later.
Extract revemu to game root. Second pic is how it should look like. Shut down steam and fire TF2V.exe. That's it, make sure everything works. You can look through rev.ini.
Self explanatory, Everything should work as expected. Only no-steam servers will show up in server browser. They also need to have no-steam in sv_tags, if I'm not mistaken.
Hopefully I didn't fuck up. I won't have time to test linux client anywhere soon, so somebody else should do it. Ask here for any advice. Linux revemu: bir3yk.net/forum/topic_180/.
Caleb Young
bump
Tyler Barnes
I hope you're ready for some videogames this weekend faggots
Isaiah Wood
got work till about 7 or so today. Also saturday I'm doing something with /m/ so there's that.
Ryan Butler
look at this cunt
Jordan Reyes
Videogames in an hour or so.
Ethan Russell
I was hoping V3 would be out before videogames time, but I fell a bit behind and am now at the mercy of MSM's work schedule
Christopher Long
It's fine, this week's not gonna be very populated in the first place because of the holidays.
Also, after thinking about IRC for a bit, specifically about how there's no way for me to leave a client up 24/7 to keep the channel going, I've sort of abandoned that idea. If anybody wants to make it, you could just use something like #TF2V on Rizon, but it's just not possible for me to keep a PC up and running all the time, or else I'd host a dedi already.
Binary fixes: +"Complete" implementation of Payload and Payload Race HUD: -Works on every payload map -Mostly consistent with the original -Missing animations for hill arrows and cart "whoosh" effect -Is not visible during preround (~5 sec period of initial spawns) -Accurate tracking of payload progress -Red "alert" on carts nearing the final point in a round during races +Alarms will now sound when the cart nears the final checkpoint +Announcer will now say attacker/defender voice lines for checkpoints +Greentexting and Pinktexting can now be enabled and disabled clientside via the command cl_use_custom_formatting (0/1) +Engineer haul speed reduced from 90% to 75% (pre-Gun Mettle) +Spies will now default to the client player when disguising as a friendly +Heal beams will no longer show on cloaked spies at dispensers -Healing sounds will not sound as well +Voice bubbles will no longer appear over cloaked enemy spies when using sv_alltalk 1 +Medic bonesaw taunt will now play the violin jingles +"Powerplay" roles will now be kicked on connection to Vintage servers (subject to change) +Payload overtime logic is now workign 100%. Overtime now plays out as in retail TF2 +Menu music resources changes to fix issues with menu music
Security Fixes: +Servers can now use file hashing to determine genuine TF2V copies -Should also increase boot times for servers +Added whitelisting for addons, models, etc. -Jingles and sprays whitelisted by default, except in fully pure servers
Combatibility fixes: +Fixed more model errors found in maps +Re-added support for the Jungle Inferno content +Crit sounds now properly play when attacking +Changed wording on Vintage options in Options screen +Edited server.cfg for easier maplist picking +Payload cart detonation effects now properly work +Enabled SourceTV demo recording on servers by default
Misc fixes: +Fixed and re-implemented concept particle systems to work with current TF2V +Added Theater mode buttons to menus for watching demos +Server addons package now included by default rather than a standalone installation of TF2V +Re-added cp_cloak to maps (but not in map rotations)
Levi Long
...
Grayson Price
We got a server up, let's get going
Carson Young
SERVER UP
Tyler Sullivan
SERVER DOWN
Bentley Martin
SERVER MIDDLE
Parker Perry
4 gamers inside Team Fortress 2 Vintage Server
Nathan Powell
SHITTY MEME SERVER HAS ARRIVED 108.184.15.243:27015
John Rogers
seems like something slipped through
v3 is good to go but we might have to look into something
Benjamin Hernandez
Downloading 4.6 gigabytes of why in the FUCK CAN'T YOU MAKE PATCHES INSTEAD FUCK
Levi Parker
Some changes that happen at the encryption level prevent this.
Also get this, a bug manifested in the form of cart crashing if you shot it. It's fixed and will have a patch. you will need this patch. it is a tiny patch. It'll be avialable here and on moddb for those who already have V3RC1. the FULL version has already silently been swapped out with the fixed build.
Benjamin Cook
I've started the download like ten minutes ago. Was it swapped by then or will I need to download the hotfix?
Michael Russell
The fix isn't up at the moment I think so wait for the patch and grab it.
please be patient this map is taking an eternity to load
Blake Martinez
What does this one mean? Is the server going to autokick spy/sniper instapickers or is it going to autokick anyone trying to class stack? That's what I'm thinking, but it says it'll kick on connection so I'm not sure.
Angel Parker
Seconding, if it's something bullshit then people should know.
Leo Cook
Powerplay role is a TF2C dev tag, as I've been told.
Joshua White
...
Tyler Gray
You're just gonna get banned man. And whats funnier still is you'll take time to reset your router every time in some vain attempt to show us how not mad you are.
Jacob Torres
Powerplay is a tag TF2C developers hardcoded for themselves that allows them to bypass sv_cheats 1 rules. It's how other devs like iiboharz ran around as tiny invincible allcrits flying heavies and led to part of the negative reputation TF2C had.
Brayden Morales
I'm ok with no crits in TF2V, but I believe that airblasted projectiles should mini-crit.
Lunix is the epitome of Works On My Machine. This isn't surprising.
Daniel Jenkins
it doesn't help that source is x86 only
Camden White
So how about that TF2C release huh?
Story
Nolan Myers
how embarassing
Christian Wilson
600+ days.
Keep in mind they had a YEAR ADVANTAGE over us with five times the developers and beta testers, and we still put out our massive content update when we said we would (before Christmas) while their update is still behind lock and key for a (((closed group))) of players to only play and is still delayed. What's more hilarious is that they supposedly told their (((closed group))) of testers what the release date would be but never to any of the filthy beta 4 players, leaving to even more friction between the fanbase. I could only imagine the reaction of beta 4 players when a triumvirate of anime watchers manages to release project goals faster and more openly than a dedicated, experienced game developer team of two and a half dozen.
Eli Gonzalez
God this is Holla Forums beats reddit in Tribes all over again
Jaxon Taylor
Wew lad. Reminder he is a 16 year old homosexual who wore a MAGA cap to school daily and got bullied for it. He also told furries and homos to go kill themselves but thinks there's nothing gay about gay anal sex. He really is the most pathetic person I've ever known on here. Pic related, it's him. This thread and it's archives has info on this dumb motherfucker. 8ch.net/cow/res/248069.html
Caleb Price
We know.
We're free of him here. He is upset as fuck this mod exists. All those "memes" are him.
In any case merry christmas Holla Forums
Easton Roberts
I'm aware, he even managed to get into the (((closed group))) of testers despite having a complete and utter hatred for SJWs- at least when they're not developing the game he's addicted to. Funny how he threw all of his character out the window when it was exposed he was as big of a degenerate if not more than the people he was permabanning from the game during its prime.
You could argue that TF2C's downfall can be expressed in Alphablaster's conquest of trying to make TF2C his ideal circlejerk while being a massive hypocrite as part one, while the lack of updates or transparency to anyone outside of the (((closed group))) causing a massive circlejerk leading to fanbase and player abandonment as part two. It was only inevitable for part three to happen which is the fracture of Classic into Vintage and the conflict resulting from Classic trying to wage war against Vintage for existing.
Anthony Perry
...
Nicholas Rogers
It's open source when they want it to be open source, then closed source when they find it inconvenient and people are actually looking at their code. The consensus by Holla Forums is that they used open source as a buzzword without understanding that open source means anyone can look at it at anytime to add/remove shit to the code and/or fork existing code into something new. It's why they threw a shitfit and claimed TF2 Vintage was running off of "stolen code" despite the code being open source and free for anyone to use or modify.
Since around earlier this year they've locked off the code for TF2C as closed source, claiming that the people looking at it are only hackers or trolls. Unfortunately for them, TF2 Vintage runs off of the open source code used before that and is licensed the same way. Feel free to look at the code here: github.com/TF2V/TF2Vintage
Owen Howard
Anybody want to play sum games today?
Ryder Nelson
I'd love to user but I can't
Justin Rodriguez
all of these are the exact fucking same game, save for a few features that are added/removed. i don't fucking get it.
Matthew Sullivan
FUCK OFF DISCORD JUNKIES
Chase Wright
Thing is they aren't aside from being TF2
07 is the game was it was at launch,Classic went pants on head retarded and is more or less just deathmatch with Sonic OC characters. Vintage is a planned "pre-mannconomy" version of TF2. That includes the weapons that came out pre-mannconomy
The discord is a normalfag containment.
Kayden Gomez
lole
Brody Davis
More or less they tried to use open source to bum free work off of people.
Jacob Martin
Angry developer, or zealous beta tester?
Anthony Young
...
Ethan Sanchez
...
Wyatt Wood
holy shit we've got a live one here
Jackson Evans
...
Tyler Martin
Hah.
Jayden Clark
Thank you, user.
Anthony Carter
...
Michael Watson
What the fuck is going on here?
From what I've gathered:
I thought we hated communism, but apparently there's no shortage of anons wanting demanding the redistribution of the source code..
Blake Perez
You again?
Gavin Thomas
?
Michael Myers
0/10, apply yourself.
Justin Taylor
Not even close
Jason Robinson
what gets me is that v1 of TF2V was made in a matter of days while TF2C devs still haven't bothered to make a proper update
Owen Ramirez
Ah, that explains. Thanks.
The only succesful TF2-related thing that anons have made was Gang Garrison 2D. Sad that game is dead now though.
Isaac Fisher
...
Michael Reyes
V1 was made in a matter of days by one user. The dev team has been four at most for Vintage. It's taken TF2C over 600 days and almost forty developers to release their update, which in half the time Vintage released 3 major updates to the game.
Jaxson Murphy
Why did you bother to post in the thread you haven't even read?
Here's your spoonfeed:
As for the… …part: educate yourself, nigger.
Kevin Walker
Want to point out that where was one sjw (or just some degro trap) developer/mapper (iibo) who wanted to go of the develpment and tried to delete her/his work from tf2c, even if it's a collaboration. Don't know it's true, but in discord they claimed that some maps and artworks will be deleted/already deleted because of this.
Benjamin Bennett
Seriously? Reddit? is that a joke?
Luke Parker
A good lesson why companies own the copyrights to the artists' work.
Logan Reyes
Also first. Open Source is open source, but couldn't they just private code from the upcoming update and then release it into open branch?
Julian Wright
HOW ABOUT
GET ON THE SERVER CUNTS
I don't care if it's gonna be a 2v2, start playing videogames
Zachary Jackson
Nope. Reddit was the very early days, before Facepunch moved in. Facepunch is what ruined the dev team of TF2C.
Iibo is a tranny who ran around cheating using the powerplay role on TF2C and got banned from Holla Forums servers for cheating. The other lead dev Daniels (the one whose repository was used for Vintage) is a suicidal albino who threatened to kill himself if people stop playing Classic.
Logan James
Not really. Seemed they wanted people to selflessly add to the public code they had up while they took the credit but when anyone else worked on the code on things they didn't like it was stealing. That is why they made it closed source; it was never a true open source project to begin with.
Blake Watson
Is anyone for hightower?
Evan Richardson
So for new years eve people wanna play?
I'm also thinking of streaming again, this time the original MSG
Jordan Turner
Do you wanna play now?
Jayden Bell
let pey bido gam
Noah Lewis
i finally got my new computer set up so you negros better be ready to play
Asher Fisher
let's play right now faggot
Kevin Cox
9 players on
Landon Long
seriously though can we just have bunnyhopping on always?
Connor Nguyen
As fun as it is, it would be better not to have fat scouts traveling at lightspeed across the map all the time.
No, the server didn't crash. We decided to fuck off because nobody was joining. but there's 2 people on right now if you want to bully them.
Ian Butler
==NO STYLE NO GRACE==>>14077971
Gavin Miller
6 players get in here
Gabriel James
I would have played the entire weekend if I had any idea this was happening.
Jacob Adams
This isn't dead?
Jace Gomez
Story in a nutshell.
You remember how years ago 4chan BTFO Reddit in a match of Tribes? Same shit here, except this time it's Holla Forums that BTFO Fagpunch in TF2 modding.
Ryan Scott
Somebody needs to make the next Holla Forums-play thread a Tribes 2 one. Hell, even I will join because I will destroy you all and that's all this laptop can handle.
Cooper Perry
What are the player counts like?
Cooper Moore
Depends on the time of day and the week. Weekdays are 4-6 players, weekends 6-12 players and scheduled gamenights have gone up to 32. The max supported is 128.
According to the code the max the game can handle without issues is 32. there's a comment from valve in the coding that basically tells you "god help you if you try to run a server with more than this"
Would also like to add, typically someone posts in here, goycord and steam then get announcements for people to join
Isaiah Turner
...
Hudson Morales
Is the mod even alive?
Benjamin Bell
Yeah. We just play usually on weekends.
James Collins
bump
Alexander Morgan
Anyone up for a game or two?
Oliver Flores
I still wanna hang out and burn stuff with the pyro
Jonathan Reyes
anyone gonna play?
Nathaniel Adams
okay
Logan Butler
5 PLAYERS GET IN HERE
Carson Evans
6 people
Caleb Reed
7 on sudden death, MemeShit
Hunter Powell
10 people
Jace Bell
up with the thread
Aiden Torres
Wouldnt it be easier to make a custom 2018 tf server? Or are you trying to avoid 20gb of hats altogheter?
Mason Scott
Yep, basically this avoids having to download shit no one wants
I can play a bit tomorrow. work has me doing closing shifts
Andrew Green
We have IDs here, faggot
Grayson Sanchez
samefag kike
Samuel Wright
Let's go
Lucas Stewart
...
Colton Hall
maybe if we had more than 4 people
Angel Robinson
anyone want to play?
Ian King
Why don't we use the good old one?
Christian Torres
explain
Jack Rogers
Old icon
Jose Powell
I hope this is still alive, I plan on finally focusing enough to have this shit installed and running by the weekend, hope to see some of you clowns then.
Xavier Sullivan
maybe we should actually try to vaguely organize a game night. i tried playing last weekend but either no one was playing, or i just missed everything.
Brayden Foster
Problem is no one does @here in the goycord and I'm the only one for the steam group that can send out announcements so it cuts off the normalfags that only look there.
I need to get devanon to add someone else trustworthy
Hudson Allen
Alright got it working, no one is online but I honestly expected that. Really like the way it looks and runs, so here's hoping you people can scratch enough players together this weekend to have a good old time. I'll pass it to some friends, too to see if they want in. What's a good night look like on these servers anyways?
Adrian Stewart
On weekends it's usually 4-6, on weekends anywhere from 6-12 depending on interest. The ability to post events publicly when people are playing should help alert people when games are going.
Joseph King
Forgot to mention, max playersize for TF2V is 128 players. Peak playercount we ever had simultaneously was 30 or so. Maybe we can reach that number again someday.
Jack Cook
b-bane sauce, you a-aren't here, are y-you?
Gavin Perry
Nani?
Lucas Parker
No fuck off.
Nicholas Stewart
tf2 is gmod
Anthony Russell
ur a gmod
Zachary Rivera
games today?
Charles Jenkins
According to Steam group, in just over two hours.
Benjamin Powell
False advertising or not Eastern time, place is a ghost town currently.
Isaac Gray
Place is a ghost town.
Jayden Hughes
It says it's on 5 here, time's currently 4:22
Jace Foster
Ice cream? I love ice cream!
Aaron Stewart
PEOPLE ARE PLAYING, JOIN GUYS
Elijah Butler
>11 people actually playing what the fuck
Evan Brown
Why did I expect anything different. Also the flooded Turbine map was shit
Aiden Scott
yes it was
14 PEOPLE COME ON AND SLAM
Joseph Sanchez
good shit
Lucas Roberts
...
Aiden Morgan
Did you record the spy game?
Lucas Cook
ON THE PLUS SIDE the sourceTV recordings will have it
Mason Price
Was good fun, a bit laggy but 7v7 was a good size for a little bit and who needs to aim when you pack Pyro. Here's hoping we can get another good set of games before the weekend is through.
Colton Cook
bach tries with his fun server. Biggest reason it gets traffic is because of it.
Brandon Taylor
Today is Saturday, I'm sure they will be people willing to play. The only issue is, at which hour.
Parker Cook
just post in the thread, make an announcment in the steam group and if someone is in the goycord make one there too.
Xavier Peterson
The hour? IT'S CLEARLY NOW
Cameron Hernandez
Come on fags 3v2
Camden Moore
anyone up to play?
Julian Perry
Team Fortress 2 Classic is being split into two mods.
Justin Collins
source?
Dominic Cook
I cannot give it sadly, however Deathmatch is being made into its own game and TF2C is being left behind. If you doubt that I am legit then you will see over time.
Jordan Flores
Checked their (((disagreement))) and there's nothing on this, except for somebody leaving their elite e-peen beta testing group recently.
Jace Miller
Of course they will not mention it publicly. You will see soon user.
Jordan Powell
The questions is: Is that permanent, or they split it up just to already release something? I an see it as a partial release, where one half of the mod gets released first end the second half is merged into first half upon release.
Jack Garcia
they're probably taking my original suggestion to Eon to cut out the TF2 and focus on DM and make it their own thing.
Justin Evans
CHANGELOG
Juan Reyes
CHANGELOG
Alexander Fisher
Thanks god, finally.
Ideally there should be multiple chats, like the text chat in Quake III. Something like… …but I doubt it's even possible in Source.
Jayden Allen
That's for LARPy or comp fags though, all talk is good as is.
Jackson Lewis
agreed.
Gonna put up a full of 3.0.1 because I feel like the entire thing should be idiot proofed. I'll put up the 3.0.1 full for those new to the mod or looking for an fresh install. the patch version will remain the same.
Christopher Rivera
I'd rather play TF2
Lincoln Rodriguez
...
Aiden Carter
right so posted the full 3.0.1 to the moddb incase people don't wanna have to download 2 things or need a fresh install
Austin Jones
tf2c client got leaked because the developers hate each other and one of them wanted to split it into two mods while the other wanted to keep everything in one
let them do that. they'll bleed people. Again if we had the same level of coverage they had it would be EZ
Samuel Hernandez
Why don't we have the same level of coverage?
Christopher Stewart
No clue. But I've personally tried contacting people like VNN and shit like that.
I know cuckchan hates this because we allow non-steam users to play.
Matthew Powell
that's probably because we only play twice a fucking week and shitpost like madmen while doing it
Oliver Russell
thing is I've told VNN to come find us on a weekend or even pop in on the goycord since I know normalfags use it and would be a good way to coordinate.
It's also better we don't constantly play because it'd just burn people out.
Dominic Martinez
so what, we just give up and circlejerk like madmen while trying to bump the thread? when it inevitably dies the ride'll be over, you know
Hudson Ward
Never said that. what we're doing right now is fine. The best we can do is spread the word via word of mouth
Henry Peterson
I don't think VNN will ever join you guys because he's too busy getting his cock sucked by the faggots in the tf2classic beta (tm) server
Anthony Thompson
Fair enough. Again the best we can do then is to tell people about this. Just spreading the word alone will reach more people
That being said maybe this friday and whatnot we can get another gamenight going
Colton Perez
Guys, you realise you suck your own cock in this thread? No one is gonna join you if you can't develop anything that is more than just "patch on top of someones mod". Like guys, everything you have is a guys who can work with code and can sort files in vpk archives (which is nice). Like why even bother. Thus mod is dead.
Ian Wood
But they are.
Ryder Barnes
May I suggest not typing like a total faggot? It would help your cause.
Henry Price
Evenin' Alphablaster, how's life?
Ryan Howard
Yes, i choosed the wrong word. People will not cover you in videos/posts. There is nothing to cover except for drama and shit.
Justin Miller
Just curious: is there some sort of mod for current year TF2 that pretty much makes the game not display hats and skins?
Austin Anderson
nope
skins are part of the game, you'd have to make a plugin to remove them and even then that's bloat ontop of bloat.
You also chose a language that isn't your first. Scamper back to TF2Circlejerk
Jace Russell
? And please tell me if there is something special to tf2v that makes it special.
There is as i remember, nohatsmod. All it's do is just somehow it breaks the model rendering. But it doesn't prevent bodygroups from hiding itself, so you will encounter legless demomans/scouts and other things like that. github.com/xJeebsx/No-Hats-Mod
Jack Russell
Why?
Eli Gray
I don't think you understand the point of this mod user. also
Jaxson Cooper
I think you're a very special user who should come play with us sometime
Gamenight when?
Cameron Rivera
How autistic are you?
Yeah, there's not way you're not Assblaster himself. Get the fuck out of here.
Adam Price
I think he should know english better than me.
Already played some time ago. It's the same experience as playing on vanilla tf2 server where only 6 players left and you just hang out doing shit.
Austin Garcia
...
Julian Bennett
Game night when.
Christian Myers
Is everyone just skipping on gamenight again?
Evan White
what the fuck GET IN CUNTS
Benjamin Ward
There's a Xonotic gamenight going on, maybe all the players are there.
Mason Morgan
There's 5 of us on right now
Benjamin Hill
...
Ayden Sanchez
did you get the latest hotfix? there was a bug i fixed regarding connection crashing
Christopher Miller
Yeah, i'm using the latest '(FULL)' version from moddb.
my problem has nothing to do with connecting to servers. The game just straight up crashes when loading on startup. I'm linuxfag btw
Caleb Bell
fuggg :DDD I'll see what I can do user. I'm not very good at building and debugging linux
Owen Cook
Alright, i'll be waiting.
Jose Richardson
we're on a not shit map come play
Could always help us user. If we have native linux users helping with linux compiles it goes faster and smoother
Nolan Hernandez
Download hotfix again and apply, should work.
Lincoln White
TO ANYONE GETTING THE SERVER USES DIFFERENT CLASS TABLE ERROR update your game dummy
Lincoln Thompson
It's not working.
Hunter Baker
check to see if it's SDK2013
you legit or using revemu
Joshua Price
user he's running linux
Jaxson Richardson
legitfag I don't think linux has revemu in any case i've reinstalled it several times already. I don't have this problem with older versions of tf2v
Leo Kelly
i'll do a fresh recompile later user. It just won't be ready tonight
Gabriel Howard
Fair enough.
Ryder Garcia
after a lot of bullshit i finally got it working i think let me know if shit breaks again, it really helps
so how much space does this version of Team Fortress 2 take? are there any european players?
Henry Jackson
10 gigs uncomprrssed which is 30 gigs les than retail, EU yes but there are only iffy US servers
We have a leaf who usually has a ping of 900+ and still plays though
Angel Peterson
...
Eli Anderson
If that's you bilbo despite your latency it's still fun to watch you try
Ian Parker
No, I'm, not bilbo, I'm the 200 ping pyro who can't set a single player on fire because of the ping and pyro's old problems.
Luke Brown
I only play the pyro to puff and airblast so I can axe someone's face in. My latency might be awful and unstable, but I'm not so stupid as to rely killing with a weapon that only registers damage 10% of the time. Every class I play is reduced to melee and shotgun, pyro just makes it more hilarious.
Evan Brooks
I'd rather not have Gabe Newell pozz my machine, is the Holla Forums server nosteam? If I can connect without it expect another regular player.
Jayden Nelson
...
Ian Jones
Yeah but it said you'd only be able to connect to no-steam servers and cracked servers have a reputation of being fucking shit and full of cheaters so I don't want to install this and find out the only people I can play against are a bunch of Ruskies and BRs while Holla Forums is having a circlejerk with cunts from reddit in the steamgroup.
Gabriel Bell
I'm going to ask you take a microsecond to find out exactly who plays this shit.
Come play with us Friday and don't be a little bitch about it
Cooper Price
NEW THREAD
Justin Hall
So basically a bunch of normalniggers since you fags are coordinating using disagreement.