Why does every game that plays the 'this is all a dream world' card fail?

Bloodborne is a little different. The Hunters' Dream is a concept that's explained very early on and works itself into the story and gameplay. It's not a twist they foist on you at the end of the game in an attempt to be deep.

In the game Folkore the protagonists bounce between the real world and fantasy worlds, and those fantasy worlds will cease to exist if people forget about them.

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Final Fantasy X was "The MC was the dream of dead people the entire time" but everything else was real.

I think the Hunter's Dream is hosted by the Doll in the old Workshop. You can see her finger gently twitch while she lays there in the building.

The doll's got nothing to do with it. Gerhart created her after he'd already started hunting. The Moon Spirit or whatever is the one doing all of the dream shit.

But just as Micolash was the host of the nightmare, the Dream too needs a host. The Moon Presence is responsible for it's creation, but a host is required.

The only good example ever of "it was only a dream" is Jacob's Ladder, fight me you fucking faggots.

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If anyone's the host it's Gerhman. If you defeat him without getting the umbilical cords you replace him as the host.

Yume Nikki, but everything being a dream is kind of the point.

I don't think he's the host. The game wants you to think this, but I think he's just stuck inside the dream, but you are able to come and go. You take his place only in that you are now stuck there.

Micolash's corpse is hosting the nightmare, so I don't see why a Doll couldn't host the dream. I see no other reason for her finger to be twitching.

rule of rose did this in a way, it's all the main character reliving traumatic experiences

you forgot the part where he kicks a bomb shaped like a blitzball and the explosion decapitates him

SMB2 ending, what a trip!

Gerhman created the doll in the image of Maria though, it's inanimate outside of the dream. To host a nightmare it requires a fuck tonne of insight, Micolash was hosting it but he had all his followers hooked in as well to get the amount needed. Gerhman being the first hunter would have seen some real shit, and seeing real shit in bloodborne is what gives insight. Doubly so when you consider he's getting power directly from the Moon Presence, while Micolash had to chain up and force a Great One to fuel his nightmare.

The doll doesn't have enough eyes on the inside to host a nightmare.

Also, I know it's a dark souls meme game where everything must mean something because muh lore but physics engine errors don't have lore implications.

Finger twitching.

If Gerhman has that much insight who's to say his creation doesn't have enough insight?

It is NOT driven by physics. It is blatantly animated to move.

I know it's a dark souls meme game where everything must mean something because muh lore but physics engine errors don't have lore implications.

It's not on the ground you retard. The finger moves up in a deliberate twitching animation loop. No physics.

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Welcome to soulslike community.

To be fair, most souls theories are based on bullshit stuck together with used tape and autism so this whole doll nightmare theory has some basis

Autism in it's finest form.

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What is the theory behind legs clipping through the dress though?

She does the exact same thing in the Hunter's Dream when you have 0 Insight. It's a deliberate animation loop, not physics.

CODEMONKEY LET ME POST

I'm trying to upload video but it won't go through. Fuck me.

Obviously it means that the doll has partial phasing abilities that occur because of her being the host. If she were ever to realize her full power she could slip right of her clothes and walk through walls with ease.

Exact same finger, exact same twitch, different dolls, different locations.

It's an animation loop, not physics.

YouTube embed because codenigger won't let me upload.

Oh so they just recycled assets and some intern was really lazy and just copy and pasted it somewhere else.

That's a metaphysical idea, not really part of the story. There's no point at which someone "wakes up" or even where you learn that it's a "dream." Also: 1) "dream" is probably metaphorical, it's more likely a computer simulation or perhaps some other kind of abstraction that's difficult for mortals to conceptualize, and 2) by definition, nobody in the TES universe knows it's a dream, because the ones who do immediately zero-sum unless you have CHIM.

DEEPEST
L O R E

looks pretty intentional tbh

There is no physics calculation involved with the skeleton rig. It's static, except for the finger which is animated in an obvious loop. The surface below the finger doesn't move, the finger doesn't clip through it. The finger moves up away from the surface. It's not moving into it and then out of it. It's above it and then further above it.

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Wasn't me you retard.

Is the Bloodborne doll a waifu?

I don't know man, my acquiring of dubs seems to prove I'm right.

back to redditchan bub

I have a static IP, it wasn't me. I also don't type without capitalization and punctuation, and I don't use "tbh" or any other faggotry.

This would all be a part of you strategy trying to deflect the fact nobody likes your theory. It's understandable user you don't have to try so hard all the time.

All me.

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You are wrong and you are a retarded faggot that can't recognize an animation loop when it stares you in the face. There is no physics calculation applied anywhere on the rig. If there was, you would be able to move it by touching it.

This post is so newfag who forgot we have thread id here

He's claiming I switched IPs, which would switch IDs. It's not that he doesn't know we have them.

CLASSIC

So, assuming the animation was copy and pasted between location, and it was an animation. An entire sloppily moving assets is basis for deepest lore?

really gets my noggin joggin

Also to make up for accidentally partially derailing the thread, I'll add another reply to OP's post saying that "it was all a dream" just feels like an insult to the player (or viewer, for other media) showing them that they just wasted all their time. People want to be invested into a story, and if you get them sucked into it for a long period of time and then pull the rug out from under them, they feel like you ripped out a piece of themselves that had grown attached to your work.

The problem is worse for video games because there is probably some actual effort involved in getting through that story.

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Trips confirm for lazy intern copy and paste

Hmm, I do see your point. If the finger was animated to twitch as just a hint to the player that the doll would come to life after gaining insight, then a copy+paste to another location could explain why that was left in.

Still, the whole "corpse hosting a nightmare" thing is solid evidence that you don't have to be a living object to host.

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Are you saying video games with world's within dreams often fail with the premise, or are you saying video games where you learn the whole game was just a dream as a plot twist. Because if it's the latter it's the plot point equivalent of saying "it's just a prank bro."

You don't need to be a living object, but you need to have enough of a brain to go insane with great one juice

OP meant that later but was a retard and used The Evil Within 2 which is a completely different story.

As you pointed out before though, Gerhman had the most insight out of anyone, so I'd imagine he could put "eyes on the inside" into any object he makes.

Also I just remembered when you find the Old Workshop, you get an achievement titled "The Source of the Dream." One might think that just means "this is the location that inspired it" but taken more literally, that is where the dream is hosted.

Link's Awakening succeeded in its twist because it made you care about the world. Everything was wacky and full of life, and you fell in love with the characters like Papal and Marin. It wasn't until later that you started to find out what exactly was going to happen when you finished your quest. It didn't spring it on you at the last minute. And even after the end, there was still a callback to events that happened inside the dream.

Finger twitching aside, the doll hosting the dream isn't entirely without merit when you consider that dreams all have a physical tie to the world through something. After beating the moon presence and ascending to an infant great one the dream continues because the doll is still kicking it.
However dreams and nightmares persist even after you defeat the hosts, so if anything before we argue about who the host of the hunters dream is we need to figure out how the dreams actually work.

I just took it as Linebeck going to the real world because he wanted adventure and Link keeping the hourglass as a memento. Don't really care enough to look back at it.

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When I think of "host" I don't think of their consciousness/soul/whatever I just think of the physical object - corpse or doll - that is hosting it. Micolash is the host of the nightmare, but he's dead both physically and mentally now, but the nightmare remains because his corpse remains.

Gerhman is presumably dead physically as well as mentally, but the dream remains because the doll remains. Dolls don't normally have a mind, but Gerhman was able to give her one via insight, presumably.

Also sorry I called you a retard. Also this "vague, pieces missing" thing these games have really is going to be stuck with us for a long time isn't it? We'll probably be debating whether or not the trick weapons are alive twenty years from now or something.

Maybe traversing a dream requires the physical connection, in this case the doll fulfils this. However hosting the dream requires your brain to be souped up with old one tentacles which makes Gerhman the obvious candidate for that.
However the nightmare frontier is a nightmare not a dream, meaning that it's hosted by the old one itself as opposed to through a medium? It would explain the differences in geography.

Dream and nightmare, to me, is "same shit, different features." The Moon Presence is clearly enabling the creation of the Hunter's Dream, but I don't think he's hosting it. One Reborn enables the creation of the Nightmare, but he's not the host either.

I would say the dream remains because the great ones remain, not because of the doll remaining. In the case of the nightmare frontier you do kill the amygdala but there's a fuck tonne of them sitting around so it doesn't dissipate.
In the case of the hunters dream, the moon presence is still kicking it or you replace it, so the hunters dream is still around.

You kill the One Reborn though, but I guess there are enough Not-Amygdalas nearby to maintain that too?

Moon presence isn't hosting the dream, he's just providing the voodoo juju to fuel it. The one reborn isn't hosting or fuelling shit because yarhargul is within the physical world, not the dream world.

I did not realize until this thread how advanced Soulsborne autism is. We're talking SM64 levels here.

It really does bring the tism out of you hey

Yeah that's what I was saying too.

Are you sure about that? Remember, it starts off as the Hypogean Gaol, it isn't until after you kill Rom that things go tits up. Rom was a child that was chosen to become ascended to Great One status, and she appears to have been holding back some of the nightmare. When she's dead, a lot changes.

To clarify, I felt he is fueling but not hosting, as I already made my distinction earlier.

I would say rom was distorting reality in a way, holding back the nightmare as you said and when you kill it things go tits up and you can access the spooky shit it was blocking you from going to.

Well I think I'm going to call it good on trying to solve Miyazaki riddles for today (there are probably no answers anyway). Again sorry for calling you a retard, I just got triggered because I have experience with 3D modelling/animation so getting it dismissed as "just a glitch" just rubbed me in all the wrong ways. A copy/paste job is at least very likely to explain why both dolls are twitching instead of just the Dream one.

…Is that supposed to be better? Because that's still shit.

I agree with this.

The universe of The Elder Scrolls isn't really more a dream or what have you than our own universe is. I think it's a bit of a cop-out to compare it to games that actually pull the "it's all just a dream!" gimmick.

I guess our universe is shit then.

quit running from your problems faggot

Wrong thread?

You mean you believe in intelligent design? Because that's what the "simulation hypothesis" is.

Yikes.

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Only time I hate it for being a dream is when it's an absolute copout that happens the fuck out of nowhere. Fuck you drawn to life: the next chapter ending, that was incredibly cheap.

no
FFTA was basically a made up world
FFTA 2 was "lel its a dream about the made up world"

I'm actually fine with people believing in intelligent design/God. I just don't like the hypocrisy of people who say believing in God is stupid and then say the simulation hypothesis is totally believable and totally not intelligent design.

He's not wrong though. If our world is a simulation, then it was created by an intelligence outside the confines of our "reality."

They're both intelligent design but now you're confusing the categories with each other. Simulation theory is a subset of intelligent design, along with a god-created universe being a different subset. They are in the same category but don't overlap.

I don't think that model is a ragdoll. If the player can't move it around by running into it it probably doesn't have any physics, at all.

Well, there's a difference between a being or a force IN the universe and a force outside of it that created us. Technically, both are God, but not in the same way. Then again, if we are a simulation, we are a pretty shitty simulation, and that's mostly my problem with intelligent design. The being that designed us this way had to be retarded or lacked several skills or resources.

Didn't FFTA2 just flat out take place in the real Ivalice somehow? Vaan, Penelo, and Al-Cid were there.

How so? We are the most advanced life form on the planet, and for all we know the entire universe. Sounds like a success story.

A simulation of our universe likely wouldn't be "let's make earth and people and stuff and see what happens" it would be "let's make a digital recreation of the big bang and see if life eventually develops from the aftermath." If the simulation even made a single cell organism on its own, it would be a successful simulation.

fuck knows really
Given there is also clear connections between FFTA and FFTA 2 with characters and story lines

It wasn't a dream you fucktard. He was In purgatory the entire time. Haven't you ever read the Bible to know what Jacob's Ladder is in the first place?

Little bitch moralfaggot.

I'd say we're a pretty successful one; it's an elegant, complex one by human standards at least, not to mention that one with the loopholes for actual "intelligent design" would be one that would surely have easily collapsed into noise from errors in its underlying mathematics. I'll quickly state that I totally buy into the mathematical universe hypothesis, by the way.
Course, with what I'm saying about our universe, our universe could surely be better still. One of my favourite novels is Schild's Ladder by Greg Egan, which is about people in the distant future finding our universe stagnant and seeing what could be the discovery of a much more complex universe as being the solution.

Bioshock Infinite practically did the same thing

I don't know why that game's writing was praised so heavily, the shyamalan twist ruined the series. it was fucking atrocious

Little Nemo

FOOL LOOK AWAY you've seen too much xDD

Stop asking rhetorical questions

Everything in Bloodborne is a waifu.

Those are terrible approximations of the bosses.

There are several flaws not only on humans but the sustainability of life and functionality of it. Success isn't equal to quality, niggers successfully built shelters in africa while the whole world fucking perfected it with stone and other materials, and as complex as organism can be, they are far from perfect, maybe because of their own complexity, think of spaghetti code. Also, there's the fact that if there's no more life in the universe and the earth disappears, then what? You can say you can wait several more years for life to spark somewhere else, but for what reason?
Well, we might be just an experiment of what if, and that's kind of depressing and pathetic, which is why I mentioned niggers, if we are a simulation or someone outside of out universe somehow created us, there's the possibility that that being isn't the only one, and maybe other beings like it created or simulated other universes overall better than ours. But I have 2 problems with this: How can you measure the "better", and that leads to, for what purpose were we created in order to measure what other universe did better than us? Because from a human point of view, a perfect universe would require complete freedom for an individual, like all the cheats of a video game, because this life would be all we have.

It just reminds you the fake story you just played is fake. It breaks immersion and makes the in game consequences feel pointless when the entire point is to make you care about something that isn't real to begin with.

Lrn 2 insight, fgt.

This alone invalidates your own judgement of "this simulation is shitty" because you don't know what the goals of the simulation would be, or what would define success or failure.

If the goal of the simulation is to prove that life evolved naturally from the complex systems formed in the aftermath of the big bang, then your simulation would simply recreate the event and run X number of cycles until life shows up.

If the goal of the simulation is to study human societal development or evolution, then you could skip the big bang and wait period and just start the program with a populated universe and go from there.

Either one of those systems, our current universe would very much be considered a success. I doubt the goal of someone making a simulation would be "Make everyone Neo/You can do anything!"

Technically, if it's a simulation, there's no end goal, maybe just to be seen or studied, but my judgement comes from a human point of view where it could have simply been done better or differently. If we exist as a simulation there's a probability there are others, and if there are others there's also a probability of one being more successful than ours regardless of the motive we were created for.

The Sims 1 is a successful simulator of life in it's own accord, but then there's all the sequels that might or not might be as successful. Furthermore, if we are an experiment, why are we allowed to go on? It would have an end? It's just pretty hard to figure out the intention of beings that could have created us.

Unfortunately, due to the size of the universe and the apparent limits of being unable to travel faster than the speed of light, plus the universe constantly expanding, it wouldn't surprise me if an advanced species decided that the best way to explore the universe wouldn't be to actually traverse the real thing, but instead to recreate the universe and observe it that way. Why risk traveling through the hazards of space (and time?) when you can just study a potentially infinite number of simulated things from the comfort of your own home. After all, if your simulation is accurate enough to self-generate life forms after the big bang, then what it creates may very well be similar or identical to the actual universe that is ever increasingly out of reach.

Or, on the subject of light speed, perhaps a simulation could serve as a means of accelerating research of possible solutions to faster than light travel. Your best and brightest scientists can't figure it out, and they will be dead eventually. So make a simulation that will spawn equally intelligent (or more intelligent?) life forms that then solve the riddle for you. In a few years the accelerated simulation (from their perspective, not ours) might eventually produce a solution. We'll warp to Andromeda, and then it's mission complete. Time to put their best minds to work re-creating what the simulation discovered.

I'm just totally spitballing here, I don't believe the universe is a simulation but it's fun to think about.

This, plus your actions in defeating Nightmare saved the Wind Fish who is kind of a deity so in the end it was all meaningful.

But isn't Bloodborne a "dream" in the same sense of Lovecraft's dreamlands?

Typically the end result of learning that your world is a dream is "Oh, so my actions don't matter, right? Why even care about these people?" so the player becomes far less invested in the game's story after the fact. As well, it has to be taken into account that All A Dream has been done well, done poorly, done everyway in between, and most importantly done to death.

As previously said, Link's Awakening was a game that did the twist well (>>13694847). And there are other games that do it well, too. But the games that do the All A Dream twist well do so because they designed the story with this twist in mind, either as a central point of the plot or as a mechanic (e.g. 99% of Yume Nikki's gameplay being within whatever the fuck goes on in Madotsuki's mind).

1. The Hero never realizes they're in a Dream, not in a way that can cause damage to said Dream.
2. Anything that HAS tried to cause damage to the Dream or tries to wake up/usurp the Godhead has either been stalled forever (e.g. Numidium) or turbo-rekt (e.g. Dagoth Ur). Anyone with CHIM, which comes with the realization of being in this, and part of this, Dream choose not to fuck with it for the reasons stated before.
3. VERY little in-game lore even hints at this being a possibility, let alone fact(?). One of the books that states it is in the realm of a knowledge-hoarding demon and the book it's contained in is explicitly implied to be forbidden/lost knowledge.
4. The universe of TES being a Dream only means its metaphysics and the rules of its universe tend to be very strange and that some metaphors rule supreme as literal as they can be.

Not quite the same since "it was all a dream" isn't the key twist in the story. Also wrong thread, knobhead.

That's a metaphysical idea, not really part of the story. There's no point at which someone "wakes up" or even where you learn that it's a "dream." Also: 1) "dream" is probably metaphorical, it's more likely a computer simulation or perhaps some other kind of abstraction that's difficult for mortals to conceptualize, and 2) by definition, nobody in the TES universe knows it's a dream, because the ones who do immediately zero-sum unless you have CHIM.

Alice: Madness Returns was good.

jokes on you, i'm making a game where everything doesn't seem like it matters because it's in a dream but then you wake up and you realize it was real all along and it had very real consequences.. that are very serious

Hes being autistic but he is right about the model. Its a reference to a bone you find outside from Marias grave which gives you her dash ability. But the localisation translated it to a masculine description which as you can imagine made the 'muh lore' fags even more insufferable.
Its just twitching because the bones missing thats all.

How do you know the simulation isn't shut down at the end of our day and we are a new copy made each morning and you only live for a day like a mayfly with fake memories?

sweet dreams.

I want to wake up

Let's be real, Morrowind's lore doesn't apply to any of the other games.
The first two TES games were more Medieval Europe and the most recent two are more Tolkien. Each game's lore is different and inconsistent with each other.

I liked how you played in a dreamworld in NiGHTS, but had the main villain Wizeman want to enter the world of the humans. The game mostly is a dream, but at the same time, very real for the protags.

The best game besides Yume Nikki to capture what it feels like to be in a dream, from the beginning. You can even change how realistic the dream is and the tone of the dreams in LSD, depending on where you go. Granted, how you interact is limited, but where you go is up to you.