Are Antifa groups more harm than good to leftism?

I like how antifa has been around for fucking ever and as soon as a nazi gets punched they won't shut the fuck up about it.

More harm. It's spectacle in lieu of real change. If you want to be anti-fascist, go empty a few clips on wall street.

They're just violent liberals.

This is the only correct answer.

The today anarkiddy variant? Yes, it's cancerous and complete idiotism missing the point of this organisation.

hi james

No you liberal pacifist or nazi sympathizer. I swear everyone who says so has to be under 30. If you have radicals for parents ask them about neo-nazis in their area in the past or something.

All I said was that the Podesta brothers didn't go to Portugal to kidnapp Madeleine McCann. not that pedophilia is okay. See how you had to twist what I said into something totally new? that's because you know how ridiculous and indefensible your own position is. Get lost, conspiratard.

kek how do you "radicalise" someone who is already a Nazi?

They're idiotic kids who fight for the preservation of the liberal world order. They do literally nothing useful for us at all except to make us look like violent retards with no proper goals beyond smashing shit and punching right-wingers.

You're heavily exaggerating the importance of neo-nazis in the past, and what has that got to do anyway with whether antifa are doing more harm than good in the present day? Thinking of politics in terms of street battles is not helpful at the moment unless you live in certain very particular places.

Prove they didn't, libtard.

Radicalising the opposition is a good thing though

By calling someone who's not actually a nazi a nazi enough times that they feel alienated from other political positions and say, "fuck it."

If you seriously think that punching nazis and damaging private property it's bad then you are not a leftist.

Well fuck them.

I know it's become a Holla Forums mantra, but that's such an absurd and petty reason to become a nazi I just don't buy it.

If you had a clear conscience and no malice towards minorities, you wouldn't take the accusations to heart. Instead you do mental gymnastics to be able to call yourself a nazi and a victim at the same time. Your head is messed up.

I'm only disappointed that they don't take things further. If only we could radicalize them to legitimate leftist organization.

Well she's certainly got the size of fascists right.

No, we're already considered violet maniacs who killed 100 gorgillion or out of touch faggots from academic enclaves so our image isn't going to change. Not that they do much, if any, good though.

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Jeez it sure is liberal in here.

Since america lacks any type of relevant left-wing party, that political space is now being filled by a relatively small group like antifa. I don't think they're harmful, but we can do better.

What do they do besides break up neofolk shows, violently protest libertarians and center-right politicians, and occasionally fight obscure racist groups that only get publicity because they were attacked?

Depends on which country

I think it's a good idea in concept, but shit might come to a point where governments can declare antifa as terrorist (especially in places where the right is in power like the US) and then everything is fucked because most of the people do not have the means to defend themselves from police and armies.

In the US in particular as well I think it's a problem because most of the antifa I know are either urbanites who never thought about picking up a gun in their life or are liberal LARPers meanwhile I know plenty of far right wing people who like their guns in the US, and nothing can really stop one from shooting a guy like they did in Seattle. So basically there's a chance they'll have both armed civilians who know their way around a gun AND the government after them.

Antifa is only good under certain circumstances, like punching Spencer.
Everything else they've done has been cancer.

that aside, antifa as a general stance is fine and riots are a valid way to protest, but they have to be done right.

they need to be more organized and armed tbh.

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but that's good, then it legitimizes the former cause by being a self-fulfilling prophecy, while the latter being legitimized out of self defense, and then the real fight begins.

It's dialectical

ITT: "HE WILL NOT DIVIDE US !111!!!"

what did you mean by this?

they should punch bankers, maga cap wearers are statistically more likely to be poorer

This. Anti-fascism is pseudo-activity that only further helps to solidy the last thirty year trend in the left to that fails to either stick to proper thought or the proper organizational form of party politics.

good to know you have nothing of value to offer in conversation.

Literally all great world-historical examples of the left doing anything comes off of party politics. From the far left communist movements in France or Russia to the mild left social democratic offenses for labor rights in the UK, organized and disciplined party poltics were the catalyst for everything.

Fantasies of spontaneous working class action doing anything but offer momentary space for one big spergout are mortally pathetic and misguided.

yes. radicalize first, bash second. trump has given you all great opprotunity to seize the hearts and minds of the masses and you are brilliantly killing yourselves.

What a gloroius way to win the war of ideas. It's not like people will begin to resent your ideology, or anything.

I think they are more harm than good but I would rather they be around than not exist.

Either lurk more, or stop posting you autistic fuck.

Thats one very narrow definition of the left you got their. Remind me again how the soviets were formed from a party. Oh wait, that's right, the party destroyed the soviets almost all workers rights because the party would guarantee those rights (kek).

The labor party, like all political parties has done very little to aid the actual workers. The only aid the workers ever got was a result of them organizing outside of party lines. In-fact, its due to the parties political ineptitude that workers actually went and tried to improve their conditions in spite of horrendous partisan leadership.

if you mean that they so noneffective that they force workers to organize outside of the party lines in order to ever actually achieve anything of worth in their lives then yes, i suppose your correct in some regard.

oh look, you don't understand anything about organizing real people or theory regrading why the party is shit, so now out of ignorance or perhaps direct misrepresentation of non-partisan positions you will attempt to vilify all non-partisan activity as infantile or some such.

/thread

fuck off liberal, how bout you lurk more or go take a walk in a downtown street.

What are you talking about? People thought it was hilarious. Even some of the normie liberals made an exception. The main problem with Antifa is they don't punch Nazis for the hilarity of it enough.

wow, read a fucking book.

Russian Revolution literally found success the second it saw the failure of anarchist tactics in the 19th century with the Narodnik nationalists and started utilizing rigid and disciplinary party politics. It's as if you don't know your argument is committing suicide right here. Just because the form of party politics ended up burying the revolution later on doesn't mean the revolution wasn't born precisely from party politics (something all 21st century communists that aren't religious MLs will admit wholeheartedly).

Yeah, like all those positive reforms, the entrenchment of labor and bargaining power, services like the NHS, etc.

Feel free to start giving us examples any time now.

Nope, nope and nope. Stay infantile though. Actually, equating you to the communist left would be too much; you're just a run of the mill idiot who is so completely ignorant of left history that it would be discrediting to put you in the same camp as the communist left, which at least organized tens of millions into political parties in its time.

Read Zizek.

Zizk is shit. Read litteraly anyone else

Kill you're self.

Good, but most antifa members need to tone down on idpol, improve organization and read some damn theory

I feel like a lot of people on Holla Forums underestimate how many neo-nazis there are. The discrepancy between real life and internet presence is because everytime they have their rallies they're met with an antifa black bloc that's way bigger. Fear of getting beaten up is also real.

There's a reason Holla Forums is full of shut-ins.

Listen here fucker, the Bolsheviks formed the party on the base work of the anarchists and the mensheviks. The formation of the party and its subsequent take over of all political life, taking away any power the workers actually had within two months. But thats not the point, the point is the formation of the part and its eventual control over all political discourse via a labor army was the death nail of any potential revolutionary activity that could have happened, all at the expense of the party and those whom controlled it.

Those came from the struggle of the workers in spite of the fucking party. The party literally stood in the way of the workers to bargain with other fucking party's in parliamentary politics. Now i could go into the effects of a supposed left party in a capitalist political machine, which is another conversation entirely (but its ends with they're all shit and if you think otherwise your a fucking liberal).

Do it yourself, you have the internet and free time to shitpost here, your ignorance is only because you choose to stay that way. Maybe if you weren't so busy read autistic slovenian psychoanalytic nonsense and read some real theory and history then maybe you wouldn't be so retarded :^)

yup

most people here only know the american antifa, which is pure faggotry

east european antifa is where it's at, cause they're actually fighting neo-nazis

Again, feel free to actually show examples instead of "uh, just Google it ecks dee", nerd. {*|:^)

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Holla Forums aren't shut ins because they're neo nazi's.

read more faggot.

I don't think he implied that, why don't you give him some examples instead of smugly going "reed buk! XD".

Useful. Idiots.

Where a black guy, breaking the law, will rob me.

they literally arent

Wew lad

stupid Holla Forums threads

hahaha what the fuck are you trying to say

Porkies are too snobbish for things with things written on them, let alone caps.

Stop posting.

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What they're doing is funny. But it probably makes the left look like a bunch of retards

Not necessarily literal Nazis but further to the right while making everyone else distance themselves further from the left.

They're not fucking Fascists though, that's the point. Even if they thought of themselves as Fascists, they're likely ineffectual, alienated edgelords, and attacking them not only solidifies their opinion, it also makes them more likely to decide to be violent rather than talking about it, and turns the public against you because all they see is a muh privileged college student attacking a guy who's wearing a red hat. The actual violent fascists are basically nothing more than gang members and fighting them is basically nothing more than a gang war.

No, the opposition is the entire right, including centrists and libertarians, along with liberals who will want to distance themselves from leftism.
They need a pretense, not a legitimate reason. I'd rather not create the pretense for them along with making my side be on the same level as Nazis to the public eye.

They aren't. The only movement that's among them that should be concerned about are the militias, but they're all infiltrated and mostly just hate the federal government and tend to be libertarians who want to be left alone.

Has anyone ever tried reaching out to Anti-fa and radicalizing them, or explaining to them any form of leftist theory? Same goes for the trump supporters who believed he was going to make things better for workers.

I like that they have the balls for actual resistance but they need to target the right people. Smash up CEOs and politicians, not the edgelord-right.

HAHAAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAAAA HOLY SHIT

stop being gay

Clearly you've never been at any kind of real life demonstration where actual fascists are present.

We arnt talking about pol here, we are talking about actual fascists, people who have a political and physical agenda against people like you and me and a whole lot of other people. Now im not going to pretend to know where you are or your current situation, but you've clearly never been in a situation where actual fascist and your comrades are engaged. You know what happened to one of my comrades? They took a picture of him at a counter demo, found him on Facebook and somehow used that to track him down in real life. They broke into his house while he wasn't home and killed and skined his cat. He had to change his name and flee to another state because of the death threats against him and his family. You just dont get it, and since im fairly certain you arnt going to go outside and actually do something that would cause a reaction form these people im not going to expect you to get it. You dont have to walk around hopeing they dont know who you are or if you or the people you love are in danger because you had the balls to tell these people to go fuck themselves. You wanna bitch at me that these people arent a threat, that just means you do NOTHING of any note in your life besides coming on here to bitch that we shouldn't hurt the nazis fee fee's. Fuck off with your liberal bullshit, go outside and do something, be active. Then when a skin head throws a brick though your window tell me how you fucking feel. Cunt.

If they want to choose to align them selves with violent fascists, i dont particularly care what they think anymore. And if liberals don't like the perception of violence they see against nazis then i dont care about what they have to think either. If people want to ignore violence on a grand scale and be ok with that, but get angery when a violent fascist cunt has to deal with violence themselves then im afraid their isnt all the much i can do to alleviate the cognitive fucking dissonance they experience.

No, they dont. They can legitimize their actions later, they dont need a reason to act.

WELL HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF BEING ON THE SAME LEVEL AS FUCKING NAZIS YOU SMASH ONES FACE IN WITH A BRICK INSTEAD YOU INDECISIVE LIBERAL CUNT.

shit might come to a point where governments can declare antifa as terrorist (especially in places where the right is in power like the US) and then everything is fucked because most of the people do not have the means to defend themselves from police and armies.

how so? I mean, antifa is just some loose affiliation. call it something else, who fucking cares? I literally don't care, its as dumb of a law as asking for incoming travelers for their social media passwords. like, what the fuck do they do when you say "i dont have any accounts" or intentionally give them the password(s) to an account that is a total sock puppet fake?

Congratulations. Good for you. You beat a fascist's face in, you feel good about yourself. Who cares if it hands the fascists a free propaganda victory and pushes others into their arms, right? As long as you give someone a bloody nose 'cause that's what really matters!

Are you out to defeat fascism, or are you just out to commit violence because fascists deserve it? By all means, bash the fash - but only if you can do so in a tactically effective manner that actually weakens fascism instead of backfiring and making them look good.

You need to ask yourself one question BEFORE you act, instead of just calling everyone you disagree with a liberal cunt. And the question, when it comes to fascists, is not "is this justified" but "will this work."

We don't have the luxury of ignoring public opinion when it comes to fascists, because giving fascists public sympathy gives them a path to power.

You do realize most of them consider themselves anarcho communists right?

That wasn't what I was talking about. Fascists to Antifa is anyone to the right of them that they don't like.
That sounds like low level retarded gang warfare from a group of people that's not meticulously planning on couping the state. Obviously those people are violent and dangerous and a threat to individuals, but they're not the real problem for leftists to focus on; they're not going to coup the government anytime soon, they're basically no different than LA street gangs: both dangerous, fucked up, reactionary, and politically irrelevant.
Stop with the black and white thinking. Radicalizing rightists mean they think violence is a solution, not necessarily that they'll become fascists.
All they and the public sees is violence against people saying politically incorrect things. Richard Spencer isn't the kind of guy to skin cats and no one would care if he got beat up for that, it's attacking someone for their views and words that's the problem.
The government has always used a pretense before acting, otherwise people can't be doped into supporting it. They're not omnipotent and they have to play the same game as everyone else.
Because I don't want to engage in fucking gang warfare instead of focusing my effort on actual meaningful problems. Even if fascists start initiating violence they're no different then street gangs and I'll think of and treat them the same as the fucking Crips, not as some immortal boogeyman that's the real problem with the world.

That still falls into delusion in thinking that Fascists are a problem worth worrying about. Obviously if you live in an area with violent Fascists you have to worry about that and do something, but on the same level as any other crime risk, not as some political or strategic fight.