But Holla Forums, how are we going to stop drugs coming from Mexico without the wall?

Are you positing that he wasn't actually poor, and that material conditions don't actually mold people's lives? Because if so, that's ain't the socialist way of looking at things and you're probably deluding yourself into an argument of "muh morals".

You're hiding the logic behind their actions under the guise of "they're horrible". But take a look at the world, especially one where poverty grips the community like a sickness. What is success? Gold, women, money, cars. If you are a poverty stricken child, you are literally ingrained with the idea that it is success or be looked upon as a failure. Give a human being a goal, and shape that goal and you control their actions.

Oh believe me, I can understand it. But in no way will I compare their motivations and ultimate lives to a case like an impoverished cartel leader. I'm not sure that dealer you're casing would string people up by their innards either.

At the same time, being a successful "business person" is something society pushes. Even the bourgeoisie have social needs, and doing that probably satisfied that need for his own self image. I'm sure it satisfied his ego in a way. Like I said above, shape society's goals and you can shape people's actions. Unfortunately our holy grail of success is selling other people shit they didn't need in the first place.

Start producing more drugs in US. Next question

Go look it up. They can only controll 2% of all transported Wares/Containers, because nobody has the resources to countroll literally most of the worlds trade. And even if that was possible, doing so whould make it uneffecktive and literally impossible to trade. Also keep in mind that drug cartells gain millions and millions of liquid assets. Hence they can bribe or threatn people within the security systhem, to raise the odds. Its just like gambling just with drug containers. A well controlled border wont stop drugs trade. And you cant make sure that nothing comes thrue the ports. The loads that get detected and confiscated are no problem, losses are already calculated for within the drugs price. And dont forget that tthis shit wont stop the most important thing: the demand for drugs. Social programms, or decriminalisation or some substances, whould be more effective.

and you want the good times to stop?

I say this as someone with family who have died from drugs, and someone who uses drugs.

Drugs are a solution to the problem, not the problem itself. If you look at it that way, capitalism is easily the culprit.

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Literally no one forces you to take drugs.

What does that have to do with anything ITT?

Building a wall to stop drug smuggling is pointless. Just legalize them all.

Nothing, the free market vult. And if they free market wants it, government intervention will only create monopolies.

It's basic economics, really.

meant to reply to

I'll bite. I'll give you that, no *one* sits there with a gun and forces you to do take drugs.

That statement is a huge jump to take between no *one* and no *thing*. What is the difference between that and a depressed person whose condition forces them to be depressed? If we can agree depression exists, then we can agree that it forces people into many different actions to mitigate the effects of that condition. That's the essence.

This.

I always wanted to have my own co-op DMT lab.

I am not saying that drugs, or the poeple that take them are a problem. Im pro legelization and a user myself. Addiction however is really nasty, combine that with social stigma, a police-state that is really miltarised and violent crime by the criminal organisations that rose to power only by drugs beeing illegal and thats some fucked up shit. My point was that the Wall wont solve anything, neither do strong border controlls.

The war on drugs is basically the opium wars 2.0 for Latin America. It's only real purpose is to fuck with Latin America and with black people in the US.
Drug abuse and addiction is a medical problem, crime need not be involved.

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People who sell poison to children need to be kept away from the rest of society so that they cannot do more damage.

yes wtf I hate capitalism and pretty much all exchange of goods and services now. Instead of building wall better to launch a suicide charge against wall street first, fight the US military, kill all capitalists confiscate property and in a roundabout way solve the drug problem that way amirite?

Only really desperate cartels try to sell drugs to kids. They're aware it attracts attention.
And prohibition creates the black market in the first place. The war on drugs can't be justified.

Better to create widespread class consciousness, get the armed forces on our side, start a violent insurrection, paralyze unaffected areas with a general strike, and seize the means of production.

Building a wall will allow the war on drugs to be ended. Almost all of the really nasty stuff will stay outside the country, so there will be no reason to conduct no-knock raids at 3 am or anything like that.

But what if they have boats?

Much easier to spot a speedboat crossing the ocean than a few people crossing through the desert on foot.

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I don't understand.

For the sake of peace, yes.
Otherwise you can enjoy your exploitative police state, and hope that the powers that be don't try to squeeze and abuse you harder.

so we can't build wall first?

I'll refer you to

A wall or a bigger coast guard won't even affect the vast majority of the current flow of illegal narcotics. Literally useless.

Trump will send in the military to deal with the bad hombres tho

Material conditions do shape people's lives, but there's a point where responsibility has to be accepted, not "well, who are we to judge if he has his rivals decapitated with a chainsaw, he had a hard childhood!"

I'd bet my life that most "bad hombres" are CIA assets.

I know it's pathologically ingrained in the Left to try to find the good in the "marginalised" and "oppressed" despite any actions to the contrary (resulting in crazy shit like the German communists opening the prisons because they're victims of society, man!) but a lot of these people as tragic as their lives are can basically be written off

But the ocean is bigger than the land border.

It's the other way around. The conditions imposed on cartels mean that only the most ruthless, callous and sadistic can survive.
It's Darwinism, baby!

Mexico is a lawless corrupt shithole of a state. If they had right wing death squads with good uniforms and a strong central fascistic government that executes drug dealers they would have solved this problem

It doesn't exempt him from his crimes. I don't think he lacks agency but it does help explain why people like him are in the positions they are. The drug trade is one of the few available paths to get out of extreme poverty for these people.

Why would we want to trade with capitalists? I know the USSR did it, but they would have been better off depriving Europe of oil.

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No can't do. Even the most idealist right wing dictatorship can't resist the mighty dollar. Wouldn't work.

And if the Mexican government seized all the drugs, America would invade faster than you can say "land of the free". Think of all the American interest in the drug war: the prison industry, arms industry, the lobbying from cartels themselves, the CIA and intelligence community, etc..

Shit's fucking nuanced, silly nazi.

If America didn't want drugs then their government shouldn't have imported them from Central America in the 80s.

Yeah you're always the ones who appreciate nuance.

But muh

Drumpf is a liberal who is just against the current hegemonic orthodoxy. American Liberal-conservatives are still absolutely liberals. He has authoritarian tendencies but you need an authoritarian when you want to go up against a vast entrenched apparatus, and charisma when you're trying to stir populist sentiment. Fine.

The old insitutions are rotten, OK, but what happens when you consolidate power around a Great Leader, and emphasize strength and loyalty, like in Bolshevism? You don't get different institutions of the power apparatus representing diffused interests and characteristics engaged in a quiet struggle behind the scenes, roughly responsive to the top 10% + wealthiest in society on a sliding scale, a sort of dark pluralism which is about the best you can hope for in liberalism. (Though admittedly this balanace was shifting heavily in favor of transnational capital.)

You generally end up with a client-patron network of amoral sycophants who's only course to rise is sheer ruthless elimination and manipulation. It massively incentivizes psychopathic opportunism, and a few total zealots, the most vicious will then aggregate at the top. Removing checks and balances and centralizing power around a big boss is sort of exactly what the founders tried to avoid. So how do you claim Americanism while being a vanguardist of sorts?

It's not so much Drumpf but what comes after. Compare Chavez to Maduro, Lenin to Stalin, etc. What happens if neocons seize control again, while their liberal opposition has been totally gutted? I thought American non-neocon right were supposed to favor scaling back the power of the executive, retention of checks and balances, etc?

At some point you get a situation where you have all these institutional forces allied against you, so you have to double down on authoritarianism, the risk of handing the power you've consolidated over to the enemy increases (not just defeat, but the opposite of your goals), left without recourse and seeing more opportunity for their own goals, the opposition's incentive for seizing that power increases. Absolute loyalty becomes paramount and paranoia becomes the norm. It creates a game theoretic feedback loop that can lead you down some dangerous roads indeed.

The wall is a distraction. You know that.

He's addicted to fentaynl lol

Funny thing that you bring up Duterte, when he's distancing his government from America and choosing to bend over for China instead. Could this be in order to fight the drug trade?
Maybe America is behind the drug trade all along?

America is a de-generate enlightenment liberal experiment turned unhinged global pozz spreading machine with cuckoldry engrained in their national character. Drumpff is a retard and a possibly a pedophile appointed and manipulated by deep state factions that realise that they cannot push against Russia anymore and win and desperately want a break to re-build the military and roll back globalism and reclaim the lost industrial base and then begin to re-establish their global hegemony.

Most average joe's voted for Trump because he was seen as the underdog and a refreshing change from the sanitized soul crushing mainstream political discourse from both Democrats and Republicans while others liked his protectionist economic programmes and his scepticism of foreign interventionism

I know why the average Joe's voted for him, I'm talking about the avant garde. It seems like an incoherent mix of goals from romantic tribal futurism based on scientistic evolutionary ideas that is open to mixed economy, to classical liberals who favor civil rights over idpol tribalism. I'm genuinely curious about your positive ideals if you accept that it was just a way to reestablish American hegemony against the failing neocon/neolib version where they would simply be the leading voice in a globalist order.

By making our own, superior, all-American drugs right here!

fucking Breitbart was the avant garde.

Most people critical of the status quo, from neo-nazis to Slavoj Zizek to Nassim Taleb to NRx or whatever the fuck ultimately saw Trump's election as a net positive anyway because of the memetic forces it unleashed into the public consciousness.

Drugs are inherent to civilization: the Incans had the Coca leaves, the Sumerians had beer, the Aryans had marijuana, the Chinese had opium, and so on. Much like prostitution, when there is a drug industry, we see that people have settled and are bored of their daily toil and now seek a false enjoyment.

Drugs existed before civilization, in the cures and medicine, in the hallucinogens the shamans took, but these were never recreational, and how could they have been? Recreation and pastimes are things that only children and the civilized engage in. The rise in prevalence of hobbies amongst the lower classes correlates with the Industrial Revolution, when the sheer poverty of civilization reared its ugly head.

If Conservatives were against the drugs, the filth and decadence of modern society, and the rapid decline of traditional values, they'd be Agrarians, Neo-Luddites, Primitivists.

You're doing your drugs wrong, son.

Fair enough. I saw Trump as a net positive too. But you're a Holla Forumsack right? They like to romanticize themselves as the intelligentsia of a cultural and political renaissance. Do you see the anti-globalist movement creating a new political landscape with stable schools of thought or is it just a vague collection of rehashed of old ideas from various disaffected contrarian intellectuals struggling to keep up with the implications of accelerated social and technological change?

you smug cunts have a distinct lack of self awareness.

lel i'm not saying leftists are much different. I'm more interested in metapolitics tbh.

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Make your own drugs and guarantee pureness while letting you tax it, taking away the risks, gangs, mass imprisonment and allowing you to start treating people since they no longer have to hide it.

Then you're a liberal and don't belong here.

CRASHING THIS PLANE

It's called a roof.

BUILD A MASSIVE ROOF OVER AMERICA

I'm opposed to capitalism broadly. I just think it's a far more complex beast than is made out in established leftist theory that has been developed primarily by liberal intellectuals. Marxism is a metapolitical theory.

I think Trump was a positive due to it making people face real life consequences again, politics was becoming way too postmodern and alienated. Kinda similar to Zizek. I'm not really anything, but I want the left to be capable of defending itself against the anti-globalist reaction, so I want to help it. A switch from liberal global order to a bunch of right wing illiberal nation states with incoherent goals and ruling class mythology is potentially pretty disastrous. My main concern really is the alienating effects of technology and postmodern conformist culture stultifying genuine emancipatory politics. I want an egalitarian, social, humanized future however we get there though.