What is up with the left defending Islam? This guy is gay and in many Muslim countries he would be thrown off a roof...

What is up with the left defending Islam? This guy is gay and in many Muslim countries he would be thrown off a roof, yet he defends the insanity.

Hot take: secularism is good and should be enforced with tanks

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We have this thread every day. Go back to Holla Forums.

Islam is cancer and should be wiped off the face of the earth. Christianity probably too but I'm not as sure about that one because liberation theology is pretty cool.

The far-left, not liberals mind you, """"defend""" Islam to the extent that it is scapegoat for right-wing shenanigans. Otherwise I am sure many of us agree that secularism must be enforced.

I think it's just people mistakenly looking for solidarity and virtue signalling

Believing that ideas create culture instead of material conditions > culture > ideas is ahistorical and Sam Harris-tier. It's not worth focusing on when people will just lead themselves to believe their religion says whatever is convenient to allow them to participate in the culture they want.

Religions are spooks anyway and anyone who believes in them can be convinced to believe their religion says basically anything anyway. Stop focusing on them

I disagree with that, I think that both things happen. Material conditions help give rise to ideologies and memes, but it's overly reductive to think that memes/ideologies can't influence behavior as well. I've always thought that traditional Marxism takes your line of argument too far.

Every. Fucking. Day.

This. Dialectics son, they influence each other. Material conditions is just the most dominant factor but it's not the only one.

It's just the opposite line of reasoning ignores that there are periods of time when Muslim empires readily had homosexuals presented in art and culture, and it's a strange claim that somehow modern Muslims suddenly became "more Muslim" apropos of nothing. Also, you can just look between countries and see pretty clearly that, for example, Muslim Americans and Christian Americans have more in common with each other than they do with their Muslim Ethiopian and Christian Ethiopian counterparts.

Anyway I agree that orthodox religious values are not conducive to leftist thought, but that excessive focus on it just cuts efforts short by unnecessarily alienating your potential base. People end up taking it personally. On the other hand when things are simply presented as in their best interests and shown to improve their material conditions, people will go through the most extreme mental gymnastics to convince themselves that it's compatible with their religion's "true message". Hence evangelical Trump supporters.

You are a fucking retard. The base and the superstructure influence each other.

Pathological altruism.

Not an argument. Unclench your sphincter


Why has the west been so tied to Wahhabism and other such sects in muslim countries for so damn long? Not to defend them or their religion, but being from south Europe, I recall muslim immigrants that weren't from morocco and Saudi Arabia who were shocked at how conservative the mosques built in my country were, property of those states my country does so much weapon trade with.

Why is this a thing? I've read this goes all the way back to Napoleon, who manipulated sects in Egypt and even was rumored to be a muslim himself.

We know why it happened actually, it's called wahhabism and it is a return to a focus on the text of the quran and the hadith in sunni Islam.

Porky saudis actively fund radical schools and oppress moderate sects, then turn to the west and say "huh better keep us around wouldn't want all those crazies free reign"

Iran's reaction against liberal values was in large part due to class based resentment of the peasantry for wealthy Westernized professionals

That's a super unsatisfying answer. Even if it's simply a return to focus on "true Islam" (an extraordinary claim considering how fringe Wahhabist beliefs are) you still have to actually provide motive for that. WHY did people turn towards that after so many centuries? It's not enough to just say that it happened, cultural/historical analysis demands you account for why things happen and not just that they did.

The left can never win if it alienates all religious people, who comprise the majority of Earth's population

Yeah Saudi betrayal of Ottomans and then subsequent fuckery in the region is like 80% of the reason Turks are so buttblasted all the time

As an atheist I don't think there is a "true Islam," but it is true that some interpretations are more plausible than others given the text. I can say Harry Potter is about lesbian sex orgies, but that doesn't mean I'm right….Harry Potter is not about that.

A complex set of material AND ideological factors probably

Because modern westerners are used to religious people being pushovers and are not aware that intense fedora-tipping was required to make the western religious people stop pushing their garbage. Also because conservatives say mean things about muslims and they must be opposed on principle :^)
Sage for daily "why liberals are retarded?" thread

Right, that's all I'm getting at here. Things aren't as simple as "get rid of religion lol" and it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people present that as a satisfying, all-encompassing answer.

Religion can be done away with when the conditions that cause people to turn to religion disappear

lenin hat is right on this one, you're an idiot.

Reactionaries. The right doesn't like muslims, so naturally the "left" has to be the equal and opposite reaction.

Well the House of Saud supports wahhabism, and coupled with decades of american intrusion in the middle east I'd wager poor muslims are looking for something to cling to and rich muslims use it as a carrot and stick to control the poor ones. It's not just american southern hillbillies who are spooked with ideas of "heritage" and "culture", most people seem to be drawn into the mysterious force of ancestry and will defend it with their lives under the proper conditions.

Lenin hat didn't refute anything he just got mad and presented something that wasn't even at odds with the original message

This is the answer here, as long as House of Saud maintains geopolitical control/influence in the region (read: remain useful to their western allies) then fighting extremist strains of Islam is an exercise in futility.

They don't understand how Islam isn't so loosely defined like Christianity is these days. They expect that Muslims will just be same as Christians having a wide range of extremity and near secularism. They are sadly mistaken.

I've never even met a non-moderate Muslim


they didn't fly so good

For anyone feeling like listening to it

wait, I cannot embed on Holla Forums? I never noticed, wtf why

Not saying they don't exist but the majority being in the mid east and africa you dont see as many moderates. When I say moderates I mean non-homophobic, non-sexist, non-sharia-law-supporer .

How does that not prove that there are tons of moderates who don't follow rules that strictly? Do you actually believe there are that many cases of apostasy/adultery killings worldwide?

The majority of muslims do not live in the MENA region, common misconception. 60% of Muslims are Asian.

…yes? you realize that people literally dox and murder atheist bloggers in many muslim countries? lol

Are you joking? You think there are 600 million Muslims in the world who have or would kill apostates? You have to either be really be at statistics to believe that or not be arguing in earnest.

Every Muslim is a "sharia law supporter" that is a bullshit metric that people use to throw moderates under the bus. The difference is that "moderate sharia law" is relegated to shit like "how should divorce proceedings and inheritance be determined?"

he did nothing wrong

No, but I think there are hundreds of millions that are fine with killing apostates and blasphemers. you have a very naive view of the world


What's up with Holla Forums thinking we're liberals? this guy is a shitposter and in many liberal boards he would had been baned, yet he comes here to shitpost

Lol give me a break. If I asked every christian in the world "should christians wear mixed fabric" you're gonna get a ton of "no" responses from people wearing polyester blends. It's not naive to acknowledge that people practice double think and mental gymnastics daily.

The other guy they fetishize is Trump.

Wasn't the sampling data on this study super skewed? I know it's still a Holla Forums fave but the methodology isn't that great

For most of human history people were regularly killed for their religious beliefs, including heresy. The modern Western condition is a historical aberration created by the enlightenment. The cold truth of the matter is that most Muslims really are savages and many of them support evil, barbaric theocracy.

The people he killed supported Sharia law and would stone adulters if given a chance. He didn't kill anyone except extremist rats. So nice try you fucking like liberal

No, it's quite accurate. Pew has done other surveys that show similarly disturbing results

No you retard, go glorious uprising on your own board

Yeah and I'm the naive one. I don't know how to tell you that there aren't half a billion bloodthirsty Muslims in the world and to think that is absolutely retarded. Not to mention that the Muslim world is noticeably less progressive than it once was, so this "end of history" type narrative is baseless and amounts to western fanfiction.

I'm guilty of partaking in it too, it's too much fun.

lol you're not as good at blending in as you think you are

Islam gave women the right to own land approximately 1400 years before any Western civilisation did.

Yet, Holla Forumstards think that Muslim women covering themselves up is a sign of oppression while western women writing "Slut Pride" and going on the streets naked as a result of 4chin trolling, is sign of civilisation and progress.

The main reason for the problems in today's Muslim world is corrupt leaders and government officials who, ironically enough, either represent themselves as super progressive or super conservative.

Those Balkan, Russian, Caucasian and Central Asian results prove that state atheism and repression of religion is the way.

I mean fuck, only 8% of Azerbaijan wants Sharia, that's pretty damn good. I bet American Christians are probably about as fundamentalist as that.

Depressing that Palestine is so religious though.

Yeah but this answer doesn't let people feel smug and superior about their culture.

I've been working for years on radicalizing Muslims to the left in both western and non-western countries, and the only leftist movement worth a damn nowadays is made up of mostly Muslims but it doesn't stop people from dropping some "Humans vs Orcs" tier analysis

Hopefully it really is just shitty Holla Forums raiding and thankfully those types won't ever do shit, but if I ever try to convince some muslim groups irl and see some "leftist" interject about how bad islam is I'm definitely decking that autist.

lol some of those numbers are definitely way lower than what you'd get asking evangelicals if the bible should be the law of the land

Boo hoo

All religion has to fucking go

The thing is, putting on a label like "leftist" won't help people. Educating them about their history and culture will do.

There are many idiots that think that Religion and morality is totally incompatible with a progressive society and that everyone would have to be an atheist to be progressive. Surprise surprise, most of these are either trolls or frequents to r/trees.

Take Bangladesh for example. In 1971, mass genocide and years of oppression led people to revolt. The West Pakistanis claimed that they were Muslims but did many things that present day ISIS does. Religious leaders at that time didn't tell people to stop fighting, instead they encouraged it.

And years later, Bangladesh is still a Muslim majority. There were a few bumps along the road but it is still a country of diverse people with diverse views.

A few years back, they hanged the war criminals who posed as "Leaders of Religious groups". But the people didn't care about their bullshitting. People, mostly Muslims, were out on the streets. Hundreds of thousands of people were celebrating on the streets, sharing sweets and stuff.

In Christian countries they could try to beat the gay demon out of him, so, I think the problem is fundamentalism, not any one religion.

It's a sad truth the vast majority of humans will cling to religion, and will always cling to it, so any society has to accommodate for that feature of our species. But while there are "progressive" religious people, I really don't want a society or a government fostering the idea that basing your entire life off unprovable fairytales is just as valid as empirical evidence is somehow "ok". As long as we tolerate religion there will always be some fuckhead who wants to ruin everything because everyone else is doing something or not doing something that is not aligned with their ridiculous belief system. The muslims will demand special systems to keep the genders separate, the christains will demand special systems to keep their children shielded from porn or evolution, the jews will demand special systems that allow them to cut up their baby's dicks. Politicians will always have to walk on eggshells to not offend a large part of their constituents, and it will energize the extremists. Religion also serves as a way to divide society, ultimately members of the same religion will side with each other opposing everyone else. It creates pockets of insular cultures and us vs them mentality. It's a pointless wedge.

We defend Muslims from Nazi fsggots like yourself. We could care less about Islam. The only leftists that like Islam are liberals who are probably being paid by Saudi Arabia anyways.

nah, some of us just knew when to stop taking Holla Forums seriously

how is that a bad thing?

liberal logic/10. religions are cancer that needs to be exterminated

you've got it wrong

we should defend people against racism. but religion? who cares

You and I both know that "Islam" is just being used as a code for "non-white/non-western". Anti-Muslim sentiment is being used to justify imperialism and dismiss popular struggle in the developing world.

so where do chechens/albanians/turks/bosnians fit into this?

Take your delusions back to >>>Holla Forums , druid.

Except for the fact that all Abrahamic Religions point to each other. The only reason for differences is unlawful change of religious verses by people in power who wanted to exploit religion to control people who wouldn't bow down to anyone but God.

Arabs were the most oppressive society before Islam. A widow could've been claimed after the death of her husband like a property. But Islam Stopped this and all other practices like this.

It's no surprise that people like you don't know anything about Religion, whichever one it may be. Cause you're too busy spamming "Lul, all priests rape little bois" everywhere on the internet.

Sage and abandon thread. /r/trees and /r/atheism in full action.

Now it's white manpigs.
False. Womyn are still property, and it's all religion's fault. The Koran LITERALLY SAYS that womyn are worthless objects to be beaten, raped, and enslaved, and if any womyn should dare to resist that acid is to be thrown in hyr face. Yes, the Koran literally orders acid attacks on all free-thinking womyn.

Ban religion.

Care to give a tldr on liberation theology?

The fuck is wrong with atheism?

As a proud anti-theist, I have to say, atheism is the only way forward for humynyty.

yeah no
they're relatively modern

Basically catholic-endorsed socialism because in Latin America priests got dicked on by the state and hte left were the opposition. Mostly comes from the christian socialist tradition of the early 1900s; which survives in Britain to this day.

you should read the quran you uneducated liberal shill and gtfo this board

Thanks for speaking some sense Mr. Nazbol, I like you. I'm a former Muslim but I know if anti-muslim sentiment boils over, I'm not going to be spared

Dont play the liberal game user

I am strictly anti-muslim, and i consider every arab socialism/communist/anarchist a comrade

don't let liberal sentiment affect your political opinion

I have an Arabic name and I'm brown. Do you really think I wouldn't be discriminated against

only by ignorant right wingers. definitely not by leftist critics of islam

That's like siding with imperialists to get rid of imperfect communist stat-oh wait you're a trot. You do that already.

like im sure you've seen while reading marx, he clearly stat-

ah wait you're a nazbol

Who is this handsome young man?

Acid was invented over 13000 years after Islam.

Stop using your "Literally" meme on people who actually know what they're talking about.

You'd have more success with that stuff in Holla Forums.

Acid was invented hundreds of years after Islam.
Stop using your "Literally" meme on people who actually know what they're talking about.
You'd have more success with that stuff in Holla Forums.

Taqiyya. :)