Religion

I think we can all agree that religion has to go when transitioning to socialism, but how would this work in praxis?

To establish socialism, proletarian armies are required and those are often either semi or deeply religious. If we openly advocate for the banishment of their cherished beliefs to the history books, we won't be able to gather much support and people will not even listen to our economic points, even if those are much more central to the ideology.

I think our strategy should be less openly hostile. We should advocate for a clear separation of church and state. Religious people tend to stop applying their stupid morals when other religions are concerned, so if we manage to reduce religion to something you do at home behind doors without bothering other people, we should be good to go.
We also need to appeal to the few good aspects of religious ethics. Brand socialism, depending on the country you are operating in, as muslim, christian or hindu, all of them advocate peace and equality for their chosen in group so as long as we manage to let them forget that they are obligated to kill nonbelievers by their books, their values could be exploited for our cause.

Violent suppression of religion doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Victimhood tends to strengthen belief and people will show solidarity with the religious or even convert themselves. The issue could create dangerous tensions in the young socialist society.
Instead, we will finish them off by the same method that capitalism has been using. If people are well off and educated, their religions break apart. Parents that have doubts about their faith don't indoctrinate their children as deeply. You go from fundamentalism to tolerance, moderate religion, deism, cultural religion and lastly full blown atheism. Given we are able to maintains table conditions in the society, we could complete this method of letting religion wither away until we have reached full secularity.

What do you think of this plan? Do you prefer violent suppression or do you think religion should play a bigger part in socialism?

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Religion does not have to go when transitioning to socialism.

Why don't you first read the post and then make an argument backing up your viewpoint?

yeah, remember how the whole middle east got less islamic when the arabs conquered it all and how christianity was wiped out in europe when clovis said to convert or die

terror works

I put the same effort into religion not having to go when transitioning to socialism that you put into religion having to go when transitioning to socialism.

Wrong post.

As long as it gets no special treatment from the state, leave it be.

But would it last? Atheism by force is just stealth christianity, unless you tear away the populations children and send them to re-education camps before the religion can take hold, the belief will re-emerge later on.
A slow withering away seems like a lasting solution to me, people will grow up without fear, looking at religions as ridiculous past beliefs, not as suppressed truths.

To make a comparison, look at holocaust denial. Germany lashes out at anyone even bringing up the topic and a bunch of germans radicalise themselves into neo nazis by looking up this information in secret and treating it like some suppressed truth. Were these theories covered openly in school and then debunked, anyone believing them would simply be ridiculed, but now the many are afraid of even talking about the topic and the few are deep into that shit.
Terror is a bad strategy.

Violent suppression, especially for certain religions.

There can be no place for it in the world to come.

This. Daily reminder that you can't kill an idea with laws.

did odinism re-emerge, did semetic paganism re-emerge?

the amount neo-nazi's in germany is negligible, the ideologically necessary panic of leftism makes it seem differently, but they're so unpopular that they can't even get 1% of the vote. if the suppression of anti-semitism creates anti-semitism, then we should see the least of it in the muslim world and the most of it in germany

"if you repress, it gets stronger" is a noble lie akin to "torture doesn't work", knowing the truth is incentive for denying it

Okay, you have a point. If you carry out a thorough genocide of an ideology and burn all their books, you might conceivably destroy them. But just because there are examples for this doesn't mean that it's universal. Christianity was suppressed in ancient Rome but then it took over the entire empire.
We have logic and ridicule on our side, we aren't trying to replace one faith with another but erase faith as a whole. If we suppress it, it could re-emerge stronger, it could gain the mercy of the public and turn them against the socialist government. Not just that, it would go against the principles of the revolution, creating classes again, with atheists as rulers and the religious as the oppressed. We aren't supposed to just switch out ruling classes, we want to end class structure.
I'm also wondering why you believe violence is necessary. Do you have a reason to believe that my strategy of letting it wither away wouldn't work?

While we are at it:

If you inflict strong pain, the tortured will tell you whatever you want to get out of it. You see that happening in 1984 for example, where the small scale thought criminal protagonist makes up grandiose lies, implicating everyone around himself, just to stop the pain.
You might be able to get info out of someone if you are 100% sure he has it and is just denying you access but as soon as you have uncertainty, torture will fill your agencies with convincing sounding misinformation.

I don't get what this is supposed to mean.

You're not going to suppress religion. Talking about doing so is a diversionary tactic to pretend that you don't have ZERO influence in anything.
Keep larping though idiot

Total ban on religion, tbh

It's like you didn't even read my post about how we wouldn't do that.

Also, I am well aware that neither I nor most other people on Holla Forums have any influence. But a change of system is necessary, because capitalism is killing us, so we might as well talk about what we would do in a hypothetical revolution, so that we aren't running around like beheaded chicken when the riots start.
In case that never happens, talking politics and philosophy is still a much more interesting pastime than playing Minecraft or whatever, so don't be a killjoy.

Well I will say having a half arsed revolution will be a waste of time. The backlash will be worse than what is in place.
Either do it incrementally, or in one big push, or not at all.
To do it in one big push you need the lower classes united regardless of skin colour or religion, with a clarity of vision, with an idea of what they want at the end of it, and a willingness to make personal sacrifices to get there.

that wasn't what happened in the soviet union or china, it re-emerged eventually when repression was softened, and not stronger


i'm not arguing for a campaign that eradicates religion, when honestly believed, it is in fact the opposing argument that supports such, if religion should not be suppressed because suppression doesn't work, then the question if to suppress or not to do so is an instrumental one


torture is practiced to extract verifiable information, all secret services do it, it works. the 1984 style torturing, as torturing under stalinism, serves a different purpose, which is to uphold a veneer of legal process. this is similar to the torture practiced by the inquisition, witches were tortured until they confessed, not because the inquisitors honestly believed they could find networks of witches and their magic spells, but because a confession was a necessity in the medieval christian view of justice.


exactly what it says, people lie because they a know a truth they don't want others to know

This

Although certain religions need to be treated harsher than others

Stomp on s*nni islam and catholicism hard

Man catholicism is like the religion that LEAST has any cause to stomp on. At this point in time the most defining feature of catholics is not paying any attention to the catholic church.

Try it. We will have our revenge, whether in 10 years or 1000 years.

Large organizations should be repressed to varying extents. But I sincerely hope you're not naive enough want to police people's private thoughts or tear down smaller establishments just to satisfy your ego.

I wouldn't mind the destruction of abrahamic faiths tbh.

But if we can't have that, then yes, seperation of church and state must be a given.

Yeah sure, can't stop people from having ideas i guess

SHAME

SHAME

Strictly speaking it appears they're not defending repression against the faith itself but the institutions of the faith.

Well if you look at the most irreligious societies in the world you'll see they are pretty fucked from a social perspective.
Having a objective moral core is not neccessarily a bad thing.
The declining importance of religion in American life is a factor in their people slowly being deprived of freedom, justice, and truth, and their ability to be easily manipulated and defrauded and their unwillingness to get real about the reasons for it.
And the religions they do have, like evangelical christianity and those showbiz churches make a mockery of christianity.
Morals are important, don't listen to the stirnerfags.

They can't be separated. An assault on one part is an assault on both.

I demand r34 of Chris-Chan

Christ-Chan

fuck

pagan religions only died because they were replaced by even more mind-enslaving religions (christianity), not because people suddenly grew wise to them

Europe is far, far less religious than America.

The decline in religions isn't necessarily correlated with decline in living conditions. The countries that can even create the perquisites for large numbers of atheists are also those that were hit hard by capitalism, which just kills anything positive in your culture.

In philosophy, there is really no such thing. If you, for some reason, really want to enforce an illusion of it, you can do much better than religion. Get a bunch of intellectuals together to write a practical philosophical life guide and then use that as your holy book, works much better than the contradictory holy texts the religions use.

Religions don't want you to be free, they shackle your body and mind with their morals. Don't fuck dudes, don't eat pork, don't even think about criticising us and so on. Freedom is a philosophical category as much as a political one. First you must have freedom inside your own mind from restrictions forced upon you, then you can make the decisions you want. This is what we call free thinking and it's not what religions want you to do.

Unlimited_Spook_Works.png
Your desire for justice comes from evolution. In game theory, one quite stable model of society is called "Retaliator". The minds are usually nice to each other and cooperate and when a non cooperative or parasitic entity shows up, they retaliate, creating a strong incentive to play by the rules. What you call justice is a desire to punish non cooperators, encoded in your genes. Instead of wildly lashing out at bad guys, you should rather think of a working ethical framework, something that "stone all wizards" Christianity won't help you with

Wew lad, why do you thin being systematically lied to would make your society more truthful. The truth is that there is no God.

That's pretty spooky, m8

the Catholic Church has been a blight on humanity for 2000 years


yeah nah

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Yeah but nobody fucking listens to it. At best they listen to the parts they agree with anyways. I mean you absolutely never see catholics against both abortion AND the death penalty.

And Europe is totally screwed with austerity. Really makes you think…

Supression

Oh boy